Editors, how often do you use them?

[Kumquatqueen]

I've used beta-readers half a dozen times from fifty-plus stories. I want advice on pacing, which bits were too slow, too fast, seemed in the wrong place, or were just plain incomprehensible to a non-Brit. And they've all been great at that.

Proof-reading and editing for grammar I can do pretty well myself, though invariably a typo or two that's an actual word sneaks through.

I've got all the beta readers by mentioning my draft story on a relevant thread, and if I'm lucky, one or two AH denizens will get in touch. So if anyone is at a loose end this weekend and interested in reading 30k of a novella about emotions over two Christmases, only het vanilla sex described (some kink and queer sex is mentioned in passing), please let me know! It's a sequel to Educating Laura and other stories, but intended to work as a stand-alone. Sorry for the tight deadline, but I want it in the Winter Holidays contest.

 

[Duleigh]

I like the extra work. Gives my brain something else to think about that is very different to writing. It helps keep me sharp. We are all different

That's all that matters, if it works for you and you like it - rock on with your bad self. I like to edit my stories with Word's read along function. They recently added multiple voices so now I get to have a British voice read my Terry Pratchett fanfiction. It drives my wife crazy, she keeps hearing this woman talking to me in my office late at night...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[lovecraft68]

And the harm to that is? They get to read the story early, but then they'll have to read it again to experience the finished product.

I have one beta-reader that most of his feedback is a few very negative sentences. I wonder why he wants to beta-read for me when he keeps being disappointed by my stories. But it's not like having him beta-read for me takes up a lot of my time.

Read the entire post, the harm is that they don't really do any editing because they were too busy wanking. That's the problem.

 

[EmilyMiller]

That's all that matters, if it works for you and you like it - rock on with your bad self. I like to edit my stories with Word's read along function. They recently added multiple voices so now I get to have a British voice read my Terry Pratchett fanfiction. It drives my wife crazy, she keeps hearing this woman talking to me in my office late at night...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That’s funny. Haven’t even looked into whether I can change the voice on my iPhone. Not sure if it’s Safari or Siri TBH. But the default is an American woman who puts way too much inflection on questions. Sounds like a non-American putting on an accent .

Em

 

[SyleusSnow]

I'd love to have a beta-reader or two. An editor is too much to hope for. Real editing is work, as has been pointed out.

I've edited a few other writer's works and especially enjoy helping newer writers improve. But the last time I offered, the author hadn't bothered to put the work through a spelling or grammar checker, or even read it. Somewhere along the line they'd changed the POV from third past tense to first present tense and, other than a basic search and replace, hadn't bothered to change any of the text. It was so bad I honestly thought they were new to the English language.

Turned out what they really wanted was not an editor, but someone to do the mechanical drudgery of changing every sentence from one POV and tense to the other for them. Grrr.

 

[Gamblnluck]

An editor is something I do not use and my stories show it. I do bounce stories off beta readers. The few I have are brutally honest. They tell me it did nothing for them or it did not flow. Or I missed some serious plot holes. On one of my stories they were very honest saying they did not like any of my characters but they kind of liked my story line and the way I presented it. The story did well. It did get a following who continually told me how my characters should act. My beta readers were ahead of them. That was 'My Mother Owns Me'. Hell, like I admitted, I did not like my main characters. They were all flawed but that was the point of the story in my opinion. It was a counter to some of my other characters in the same 'judicial slavery universe'.
You can bet my next story will be bounced off those readers. (unless it is a continuation of an established story.)
One beta reader gave me the basic idea for my 'Cuckold's Anonymous' story. He gave me the idea and I ran with it. He refuses to even try to write, saying he doesn't have any talent. But he comes up with great ideas.

 

[Djmac1031]

I'm wondering how often do you make use of the editors?

Honestly? Never.

At least not randomly reaching out to any on some list.

That said, much like @EmilyMiller, over time I've made a circle of friends here, and sometimes they help me, sometimes I help them.

Im certainly no expert editor, but I do my best to catch obvious typos and grammar errors. And if I get asked to make suggestions on the story itself, I'll give my honest input without trying to force my ideas on the author.

On the flip side, I absolutely love having someone to bounce my story ideas off of, to preview it as I write, to get an outside opinion on what is or isn't working.

I get many here aren't into that type of collaborative effort. But for me, it works and can really help inspire my story to new levels I may not have considered on my own.

 

[Bramblethorn]

For my very first story (and part 2) I contacted an editor. The story got sent back with some links to helpful sites to improve my writing, and a suggestion to find an editor. It really helped me find a lot of my mistakes.
However, after that I've posted two more stories, without letting an editor proof read it.
Sure, my stories have a few errors, but three out of four still are above 4.5 rating.

I'm wondering how often do you make use of the editors?

As a professional editor, I think people should always make use of editors ;-)

I always have at least a couple of people beta-reading/editing my stories, though not through the VE program.

I'm pretty good on spelling/grammar stuff, though they'll often catch one or two things that slipped past me. The main benefit I get from my editors is higher-level feedback on the story - is it coming across the way I meant it to, does this character speak the way they ought to, that kind of thing. Sometimes I look for specialist feedback when I'm writing about something outside my experience, like the dynamics of an Indian migrant family.

This is a very important concept, both for you as an author and for the sake of not driving your editors crazy. Do the best you can with the draft before you send it to an editor. Don't do it sloppy and expect the editor to make it clean. That way the editor can focus on changes that will actually help you improve your craft, instead of doing basic remedial work. A few years ago I edited somebody's story, and I could not believe what horrible shape it was in. It was atrocious. And this was someone who had had some very successful stories. I slogged my way through it. I will never do that again.

Cannot emphasise this enough. Fixing spelling/grammar issues is a very different mindset from those higher-level aspects, and I find that I can't work in both modes at once.

It's also about respect for the editor's time, especially if they're doing it for free - as @StillStunned points out, I suspect a lot of people don't realise how much work it is.

As a professional editor (in business writing I generally call myself a copy editor and proofreader, but I gather that in fiction publishing it would be called line editing and copy editing), I should perhaps point out why people might be reluctant to volunteer.

It takes time. And it's mentally exhausting.

I typically have all the freedom I want to completely rewrite my clients' English to make it sound as polished and professional as possible. I work for banks, lawyers, pension funds, investment companies, power companies, government bodies up to the level of the EU, and very rarely for private individuals.

I'm good at my job. I've been doing it long enough that I usually have two or three constructions lined up in my head for every sentence I read.

Even so, my speed averages at 1000 words an hour. I have to take regular breaks. Like I said, it's exhausting work.

My professional work is in a different line, primarily technical editing, but I have the same experience. Everything I have to edit requires thinking through questions like:

What did the writer mean to say?
What did they actually say?
How might this be misunderstood by a reader who doesn't have the same background?
How could it be better worded to convey what the author wants to convey?
Is what the author wants to convey even correct? (less an issue with fiction, usually!)
Where is the line between "this is bad writing?" and "this isn't how I would have written it?"
If it needs changing, how should I convey that to the author?

I can second that fatigue. I have a lot of difficulty with employers who want me to record hours spent working because I can only do so much before I need a break, and the worse it is to begin with the more I need those breaks, which makes it hard to distinguish "work" and "non-work" time.

With apologies for plugging this yet again, here's a piece I wrote showing the kind of things I'm doing when I edit a story for somebody who's already put a lot of work into it.

For authors trying to find an editor: one of the things you can do to help yourself is have examples of your work available, and link to them in the initial ask, so that potential editor can check them out before ever expressing interest to you. If I can see something you've written previously, and especially if I can see the current state of the story you want help with, I can figure out whether this is going to be something I can deal with or the kind of atrocious slog that Simon mentions. Without that, you're asking us to buy a pig in a poke.

 

[Voboy]

On Lit? Never have I ever.

There are friends I've made on Lit that I feel I can bounce ideas off of; the Leinyere world, for example, feels collaborative in a constructive way, and I know some of my ideas in those stories owe something to the contributions of others, even as my own input contributed to other peoples' stories. But it never occurred to me to run my work through another set of eyes before submitting. I feel like it isn't truly my work if I farm any of it out to someone else, however qualified or well-meaning.

When I've written commercial stories, my publisher has sent back comments; few, as a rule, but I'm inclined to look at those differently because if the publisher is paying me, and laying out further money to prep the work for sale, then they deserve to have some say in how it's presented, since it's their reputation on the line and not just mine.

 

[AlinaX]

I like to edit using Google docs, and this is particularly rewarding if the author engages constructively as I work through it, since editing can start to feel quite lonely.

Some authors never respond to edits, perhaps because I've managed to piss them off by questioning them.

Some authors will fight against every suggestion to the point I know there is no point in continuing.

I do quite enjoy editing, but it is time-consuming.

 

[ronde]

I've used an actual editor once in all the years I've been writing and that was only because on another site, an editor had to "edit" the story before it could be considered for publication. I wasn't shown the edits until I looked at the published story, and it wasn't my story anymore. It was the story the "editor" wanted to read.

I have exchanged stories in the past with a dear friend. She was an excellent at character descriptions and fitting those characters into believable plots, but English was not her first language, and the difference in syntax between Italian and English kept tripping her up as did the Google translation of some Italian words into English. She caught my typos, but more importantly, she helped me understand that there is more than one way to read and understand a sentence if it's not worded clearly.

The important part of that relationship was the the comments each of us made to the other were just suggestions, not mandates.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I like to edit using Google docs, and this is particularly rewarding if the author engages constructively as I work through it, since editing can start to feel quite lonely.

Some authors never respond to edits, perhaps because I've managed to piss them off by questioning them.

Some authors will fight against every suggestion to the point I know there is no point in continuing.

I do quite enjoy editing, but it is time-consuming.

FWIW - when I’m the author, I accept probably 80% of the Google Docs suggestions. The other 20% is where I meant something else, but the reviewer has picked up on my language being ambiguous.

No point asking for feedback if you don’t listen.

Em

 

[StillStunned]

No point asking for feedback if you don’t listen.

That's an issue I have when I work with colleagues, and one I had to overcome myself back in the day. We're all very impressed with our own skills, and it takes an open mind to be receptive when someone tells you you're wrong, or that your work could be improved.

You have to adjust your mindset away from "I'm being criticised" to "this editor is helping me to make my work better".

 

[8letters]

Read the entire post, the harm is that they don't really do any editing because they were too busy wanking. That's the problem.

No, the problem is that you are unappreciative of a volunteer's service to you.

I am grateful for anything a beta-reader provides me. Regardless of what they provide me, I thank them for it and I offer to mention them as someone who contributed to my story.

When someone volunteers to beta-read for me, I have no idea what they'll do. When I send them a story to beta-read, I feel that I am committing to being grateful to whatever they provide me.

That being said, the way I find great beta-readers/editors is by finding useless beta-readers. You have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince.

I like to edit using Google docs, and this is particularly rewarding if the author engages constructively as I work through it, since editing can start to feel quite lonely.

Some authors never respond to edits, perhaps because I've managed to piss them off by questioning them.

Some authors will fight against every suggestion to the point I know there is no point in continuing.

I do quite enjoy editing, but it is time-consuming.

I view beta-reading/editing as a long-term relationship. Why should they do it again for me if I don't use as much as I can of their work?

The way I do things is I send people my story, and then I manually type into my story changes based on the feedback they send me. That gives me total ownership of the story. I try to use every suggestion that is sent to me, but there are some I reject. The editors I have worked with are not interested in knowing what suggestions I rejected. They'll see the impact of their suggestions in the final story.

 

[dadadadiox]

Never on Lit and it shows. I’m a hack hobbyist writer with no delusions about the quality of my work. I’ve been a contributor on a few sites where writers critique each other’s work for credits, as well as a member of private writing communities going back to MSN Groups. I’ve received some humbling critiques as well as thoughtful, constructive criticism.

Some of those writing partnerships lasted years. One friend said my narrative writing has a procedural tone. That makes sense as I spent years doing manufacturing R&D, developing processes, writing step by step instructions and doing CNC programming for those who would run production on medical instruments or aerospace components. That mechanical, procedural style bleeds into everything I write.

She said if she reads my narrative with the voice of a crime/detective narrator in her head, like Joe Friday, it works.

I’m incapable of reading one of my chapters without making changes, even after I consider it complete. I’m constantly fiddling, rewording and making small tweaks. It’s a sickness. I believe that’s where most of my typos are made, while making a minor change and moving on. After I’ve read my own work a dozen times or more, always adjusting, it gets tedious and that’s when I get sloppy.

Would an editor help? Of course, but I’m just writing for fun so I’m not asking anyone to invest their time in my hobby.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

For my very first story (and part 2) I contacted an editor. The story got sent back with some links to helpful sites to improve my writing, and a suggestion to find an editor. It really helped me find a lot of my mistakes.
However, after that I've posted two more stories, without letting an editor proof read it.
Sure, my stories have a few errors, but three out of four still are above 4.5 rating.

I'm wondering how often do you make use of the editors?

Professionally, my stories go through at least three editors. Here, I have a select group of writers that review my self-edited stories and provide feedback before publication.

I've often thought that Literotica would benefit from having critique groups, maybe even for different genres. I can't envision this happening due to the hobbyist nature of the site.

Critique groups aren't just for professional writers but they do require a commitment to the group and a strict adherence to the group guidelines if anyone is to derive a benefit from them. I might be wrong, but I don't see that happening here, at least not on any significant scale. The closest thing here is the Story Feedback forum, which has no guidelines or organization to it.

 

[WendyTrilby]

Never. Yes, I'm sure I could benefit from a second set of eyes looking for typos and grammatical errors, but I tend to crowdsource my errors and, over a few resubmissions, get it clean.

I do not believe in collaboration in any way, shape, or form. While I appreciate compliments or questions, I abhor criticism and would hate you for correcting me about anything. Oh, I forgot to close the quote? Fuck you, you try writing this stuff.

In my paying job, I work with whoever is necessary to ensure my success. But here on LE, it's the Wild West, and I'm a lone gunwoman. I don't want a sidekick, not even a dog.

 

[Rob_Royale]

Not at all.
I can read my drafts and find flow issues, misused words, wonky and/or run-on sentences, and things like that. Spellcheck and Grammarly point out other issues. Then a reread with a font change helps other mistakes pop out. Finally, an audio readback is my safety net. After 20+ stories I've got it pretty well down pat and I feel I turn out a decent quality read.

 

[WendyTrilby]

Not at all.
I can read my drafts and find flow issues, misused words, wonky and/or run-on sentences, and things like that. Spellcheck and Grammarly point out other issues. Then a reread with a font change helps other mistakes pop out. Finally, an audio readback is my safety net. After 20+ stories I've got it pretty well down pat and I feel I turn out a decent quality read.

I do the audio pass as well. That is probably the most effective tool I use.

 

[Voboy]

I do not believe in collaboration in any way, shape, or form. While I appreciate compliments or questions, I abhor criticism and would hate you for correcting me about anything. Oh, I forgot to close the quote? Fuck you, you try writing this stuff.

In my paying job, I work with whoever is necessary to ensure my success. But here on LE, it's the Wild West, and I'm a lone gunwoman. I don't want a sidekick, not even a dog.

I'm tempted to quote this in my signature. Lol.

 

[djrip]

Never. Yes, I'm sure I could benefit from a second set of eyes looking for typos and grammatical errors, but I tend to crowdsource my errors and, over a few resubmissions, get it clean.

I do not believe in collaboration in any way, shape, or form. While I appreciate compliments or questions, I abhor criticism and would hate you for correcting me about anything. Oh, I forgot to close the quote? Fuck you, you try writing this stuff.

In my paying job, I work with whoever is necessary to ensure my success. But here on LE, it's the Wild West, and I'm a lone gunwoman. I don't want a sidekick, not even a dog.

You write the way I play Elder Scrolls. Get the fuck outta here, stupid NPC I'm not supposed to kill! How the hell am I supposed to blast everything in the room with you in the way?

 

[Duleigh]

I do the audio pass as well. That is probably the most effective tool I use.

I do that PLUS I use a program called ProWritingAid, it's really good at catching things that look right but don't pass the sniff test. It's much better than gramarly and the built in editing that Microsoft ads to Word. It will offer "style corrections" and I never accept them. If I feel that the style needs to be changed, I will change it. A quick right click and I have all the synonyms I want.

 

[VallesMarineris]

I like the extra work. Gives my brain something else to think about that is very different to writing. It helps keep me sharp. We are all different.

Hey Em,

This is off topic but I can’t resist. You reminded me of a guy I met— haven’t thought of him in a very long time— who was in a league even beyond you.

This was in the early 90s. There was the Internet but no Web. He styled himself as a “digital nomad”. He lived on a big recumbent bike. I mean that literally. He was a big guy, well over six feet, and packed well over a hundred pounds on his bike. He made a living by writing articles about being a digital nomad for various magazines. Had a following.

Let’s cut to the chase: he had disassembled an early HP luggable computer and reconfigured it in the panniers. He put solar cells on top to power it. The tiny screen was attached in front. He wrote about travel while he was traveling. I asked him where the keyboard was and he pointed to the handlebars, which in his bike were under-seat. I saw that there were four push buttons on each handle.

He typed his articles in binary ASCII!.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Hey Em,

This is off topic but I can’t resist. You reminded me of a guy I met— haven’t thought of him in a very long time— who was in a league even beyond you.

This was in the early 90s. There was the Internet but no Web. He styled himself as a “digital nomad”. He lived on a big recumbent bike. I mean that literally. He was a big guy, well over six feet, and packed well over a hundred pounds on his bike. He made a living by writing articles about being a digital nomad for various magazines. Had a following.

Let’s cut to the chase: he had disassembled an early HP luggable computer and reconfigured it in the panniers. He put solar cells on top to power it. The tiny screen was attached in front. He wrote about travel while he was traveling. I asked him where the keyboard was and he pointed to the handlebars, which in his bike were under-seat. I saw that there were four push buttons on each handle.

He typed his articles in binary ASCII!.

When I used to write a blog (not under this name) I used the WordPress HTML pane to write articles. College friends thought me crazy.

I’m odd, I know that already. Unlike Sheldon fucking Cooper, when my parents had me tested, there was a positive result.

Emily

 

[VallesMarineris]

Critique groups

I was part of a critique group early on. It was helpful but I grew out of it.

Now in Lit I have one editor. He's a lawyer, which means has an experienced eye for textual mistakes of all kinds. My stuff is very clean-- I have a spell checker and grammar checker built into my head-- so he's more of a beta reader, but he does catch things.

I wouldn't mind another editor or two to tell me when my characters have veered off into cardboard land, or my carefully crafted scene puts them to sleep.

I refuse to use Grammarly. The company name alone is a deal breaker. It tells me that the startup was taken over too soon by marketing BOFIs* who ignored the gross neologism because it sounded good to their tin ears and the domain name was available. No way I could ever trust that company's advice, even before it devolved into AI.

VM

BOFI: Bunch Of Fucking Idiots