Can We Talk Romance?

[oggbashan]

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What you and others keep trying to prove is that the average Lit reader is somehow DIFFERENT from every other denizen of the planet when it comes to categories and reading preferences. Yet you offer no real data or facts to support this except KNOWN FLAWED information. And then refuse to acknowledge actual data.

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9.5% in 2009 increasing to 16.5% in 2016. Yet you and others INSIST that men are the larger portion of the readership here and that Romance can be written expressly for them.

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Romance is a category occupied by women. Write Romance for them in the way they want to read it.

I have read all the way through this thread. I can't see anyone stating that men are the major readers of Romance on Literotica. I saw a statement that comments are more frequent from men (or those who say they are men) but comments are a tiny percentage of views. Comments prove nothing.

I think you are getting yourself angry about something that has NOT been said.

 

[Kojak01]

What you and others keep trying to prove is that the average Lit reader is somehow DIFFERENT from every other denizen of the planet

The average American is different from every other denizen of the planet.
The average Canadian is different from every other denizen of the planet.
The average Chinese is different from every other denizen of the planet.

And all are different from each other.

You are trying to prove that the average Lit reader is just like every other denizen of the planet and that is just as wrong as the opposite.

 

[SimonDoom]

Romance is a category occupied by women. Write Romance for them in the way they want to read it.

That may be less true on Literotica than elsewhere for the simple reason that men probably are a significantly larger part of the Literotica audience than are women. So even if women Literotica readers are much more inclined to read romance, that fact may be offset somewhat by the degree to which male readers outnumber female readers here overall. If that's true, then it doesn't follow that romance authors should cater to the preferences of female readers. They may find a relatively sizable audience among male authors.

Without hard data, it's difficult to know for sure, but I see no reason why a male author who wants to write a romance story here at Literotica from a male point of view should be discouraged from doing so.

I have another question: how much sex gets a story disqualified from the romance category? I've got an idea for a male-female story that will be romantic and sexy but will have no sex until the end. It will be from the female POV, though in third person, not first person. How explicit can the sex be?

 

[MelissaBaby]

That may be less true on Literotica than elsewhere for the simple reason that men probably are a significantly larger part of the Literotica audience than are women. So even if women Literotica readers are much more inclined to read romance, that fact may be offset somewhat by the degree to which male readers outnumber female readers here overall. If that's true, then it doesn't follow that romance authors should cater to the preferences of female readers. They may find a relatively sizable audience among male authors.

Without hard data, it's difficult to know for sure, but I see no reason why a male author who wants to write a romance story here at Literotica from a male point of view should be discouraged from doing so.

I have another question: how much sex gets a story disqualified from the romance category? I've got an idea for a male-female story that will be romantic and sexy but will have no sex until the end. It will be from the female POV, though in third person, not first person. How explicit can the sex be?

I've made two submissions to the Romance category. Both have earned the Red H. They each contain one explicit sex scene. But those scenes comprise probably less than 5% of the whole story. I don't think it's a question of explicitness, as long as the sex is in the context of a story about relationships.

I did get a few criticisms that the main characters had sex on their first date. But the issue of whether or not they are rushing into a relationship too fast is one that will be addressed in a future installment.

And, I'm sorry if it disillusions my readers, but I generally fuck on the first date myself.

 

[SimonDoom]

I've made two submissions to the Romance category. Both have earned the Red H. They each contain one explicit sex scene. But those scenes comprise probably less than 5% of the whole story. I don't think it's a question of explicitness, as long as the sex is in the context of a story about relationships.

I did get a few criticisms that the main characters had sex on their first date. But the issue of whether or not they are rushing into a relationship too fast is one that will be addressed in a future installment.

And, I'm sorry if it disillusions my readers, but I generally fuck on the first date myself.

That's a spicier reply than I would have expected. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

My story will have only one sex scene, at the end, not on the first date. I want to post it as a romance story because it will have traditional romantic elements -- 2 people attracted to one another who through misunderstanding do not recognize their mutual attraction until circumstances bring them around. The emphasis will be on the relationship, not the sex. It won't be a stroke story.

I don't want to post it in erotic couplings because that seems to have a very small audience. From what you've said, romance seems like the right call.

 

[CoffeeWithMonkeys]

I've made two submissions to the Romance category. Both have earned the Red H. They each contain one explicit sex scene. But those scenes comprise probably less than 5% of the whole story. I don't think it's a question of explicitness, as long as the sex is in the context of a story about relationships.

I did get a few criticisms that the main characters had sex on their first date. But the issue of whether or not they are rushing into a relationship too fast is one that will be addressed in a future installment.

And, I'm sorry if it disillusions my readers, but I generally fuck on the first date myself.

I really wanted to put my Serendipity series in Romance because it focuses on two people falling in love, and very little sex, but I couldn't submit it there because of the ending.
And that sucks because it truly is romance and nothing else, but it ended up in EC where I usually submit everything by default.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Bramble's post illustrates this perfectly:

9.5% in 2009 increasing to 16.5% in 2016. Yet you and others INSIST that men are the larger portion of the readership here and that Romance can be written expressly for them.

For the record, my post also discussed why it would be unwise to interpret the difference between the 9.5% and 16% figures as an increase over time, and suggested a reason for why the ratio among Lit romance readers would quite likely be very different to those buying romance books in print.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Side note: unless you've been karyotyped, y'all don't actually know for sure whether you have a Y chromosome. If you were born with a penis and you've fathered babies, it's highly likely, but not a certainty; genetics is a lot weirder and more complex than the high-school "XX female, XY male" version.

Likewise, being born with a vagina and having birthed babies doesn't confirm the absence of a Y chromosome.

/pedant

 

[SimonDoom]

Side note: unless you've been karyotyped, y'all don't actually know for sure whether you have a Y chromosome. If you were born with a penis and you've fathered babies, it's highly likely, but not a certainty; genetics is a lot weirder and more complex than the high-school "XX female, XY male" version.

Likewise, being born with a vagina and having birthed babies doesn't confirm the absence of a Y chromosome.

/pedant

Is it possible to father babies without a Y chromosome? Are there any examples of that? If that's so, I didn't know it.

To birth babies one has to have at least two X chromosomes, doesn't one? Perhaps also an extra Y but at least two Xs?

 

[CoffeeWithMonkeys]

Side note: unless you've been karyotyped, y'all don't actually know for sure whether you have a Y chromosome. If you were born with a penis and you've fathered babies, it's highly likely, but not a certainty; genetics is a lot weirder and more complex than the high-school "XX female, XY male" version.

Likewise, being born with a vagina and having birthed babies doesn't confirm the absence of a Y chromosome.

/pedant

If you're referring to my signature that has nothing to do with this conversation. I added that recently because I get private messages, and a couple times comments on the boards, stating that I can't possibly know what I'm talking about in regards to certain things because I'm a man. LOL! I just got tired of replying, I'm not a man.

But if you were referring to something else, never mind

 

[PuckIt]

Side note: unless you've been karyotyped, y'all don't actually know for sure whether you have a Y chromosome. If you were born with a penis and you've fathered babies, it's highly likely, but not a certainty; genetics is a lot weirder and more complex than the high-school "XX female, XY male" version.

Likewise, being born with a vagina and having birthed babies doesn't confirm the absence of a Y chromosome.

/pedant

I was THIRTEEN at the time! It was the best I could do!

(If that wasn't a reference to the note buried in my "holy shit, what a wall of text" response, then never mind. )

 

[CoffeeWithMonkeys]

I was THIRTEEN at the time! It was the best I could do!

(If that wasn't a reference to the note buried in my "holy shit, what a wall of text" response, then never mind. )

Are we both feeling guilty? hehehe

I always think people are talking about me

 

[PuckIt]

Are we both feeling guilty? hehehe

I always think people are talking about me

Just because you suffer from egocentric paranoid delusions, doesn't mean people aren't out to get you. Or so I've always thought.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I have another question: how much sex gets a story disqualified from the romance category? I've got an idea for a male-female story that will be romantic and sexy but will have no sex until the end. It will be from the female POV, though in third person, not first person. How explicit can the sex be?

My first and third highest rated stories (4:92/79 and 4:81/68 respectively) are both Romance (same series), both with my usual fairly explicit (hetero) sex (fellatio, cunnilingus, vaginal), descriptions of pregnancy and child-birth, mention of cunt, piss, vomit (in the context of medical issues faced by people with broken spines - and babies).

Maybe they were read by sensitive, mature adults, because other than one person squicked by the pee (obviously didn't get the intent of the scene, which was only two or three paras, and not erotic), everyone coped just fine with probably quite a "difficult" subject matter. Certainly the feedback received from PWD was very positive - and appreciative that I gave their community a sexual voice.

So yes, Romance readers can cope with something more descriptive than the birds and the bees.

 

[CoffeeWithMonkeys]

Just because you suffer from egocentric paranoid delusions, doesn't mean people aren't out to get you. Or so I've always thought.

Exactly!

 

[Bramblethorn]

If you're referring to my signature that has nothing to do with this conversation. I added that recently because I get private messages, and a couple times comments on the boards, stating that I can't possibly know what I'm talking about in regards to certain things because I'm a man. LOL! I just got tired of replying, I'm not a man.

But if you were referring to something else, never mind

No, not yours - there were a couple of posts specifically referencing Y chromosomes.

Is it possible to father babies without a Y chromosome? Are there any examples of that? If that's so, I didn't know it.

To birth babies one has to have at least two X chromosomes, doesn't one? Perhaps also an extra Y but at least two Xs?

A single X chromosome (45,X) is Turner Syndrome: http://oncofertility.northwestern.edu/turner-syndrome

Turner Syndrome tends to cause under-production of developmental hormones that USUALLY leads to ovarian failure, but about 1% of patients are capable of pregnancy, and early intervention with hormone supplements can also help.

Mosaicism e.g. (46,XX/46,XY) can result in somebody who appears female and is able to have babies, but has a Y chromosome in some cells of their body.

"XX male" seems to happen most often when a gene called SRY, which usually lives on the Y chromosome ends up on the X instead, resulting in somebody who has two X chromosomes but looks male. There are also non-SRY based cases.

In mice, SRY males have managed to father children: https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.i...roduce-without-y-chromosome-a6840186.html?amp

I'm not sure whether there are any documented cases of XX human males fathering children; I thought I had a reference but can't dig it up right now, and what I can find varies between "always" and "almost always" infertile. But it's rare for people to get the kind of genetic testing that would identify the XX chromosomes unless they have some specific medical reason - like, say, infertility. An XX male who was able to father children would probably never know there was anything unusual about their genes, so who knows what's out there? We know from mice that it's at least plausible that an XX male could be fertile.

 

[SimonDoom]

My first and third highest rated stories (4:92/79 and 4:81/68 respectively) are both Romance (same series), both with my usual fairly explicit (hetero) sex (fellatio, cunnilingus, vaginal), descriptions of pregnancy and child-birth, mention of cunt, piss, vomit (in the context of medical issues faced by people with broken spines - and babies).

Maybe they were read by sensitive, mature adults, because other than one person squicked by the pee (obviously didn't get the intent of the scene, which was only two or three paras, and not erotic), everyone coped just fine with probably quite a "difficult" subject matter. Certainly the feedback received from PWD was very positive - and appreciative that I gave their community a sexual voice.

So yes, Romance readers can cope with something more descriptive than the birds and the bees.

This is good to know. I should have no problem with my story (the bulk of which, it must be said, has not been written yet).

 

[HectorBidon]

My story will have only one sex scene, at the end, not on the first date. I want to post it as a romance story because it will have traditional romantic elements -- 2 people attracted to one another who through misunderstanding do not recognize their mutual attraction until circumstances bring them around. The emphasis will be on the relationship, not the sex. It won't be a stroke story.

I don't want to post it in erotic couplings because that seems to have a very small audience. From what you've said, romance seems like the right call.

I've submitted a few stories in Romance that had a male first person narrator and sex. They've done well and have gotten thoughtful comments. The sex wasn't the main focus, just a natural part of a developing relationship.

My take is that Romance readers are more sophisticated than the typical Literotica reader. They find emotions more interesting than physiology. But they're not prudes. Sex is part of life, but life is much more than just sex.

I think your story will do just fine.

The one thing I get dinged for is falling short in the happy-ever-after department. In my latest story a guy and a girl end up having to share a gender-neutral dorm room in college. They start off despising each other, but eventually develop a mutual tolerance and affection. They become fuck buddies, but they don't stay together after the semester ends. "Not very romantic," the critics complained. Still, they voted it within a hair's breadth of a red H. I could have put it in EC, but I just trusted the Romantic readers to be more amenable to its introspective hesitation.

And, I'm sorry if it disillusions my readers, but I generally fuck on the first date myself.

Disillusioned, but do you want to go maybe catch a movie?

 

[HisArpy]

I have read all the way through this thread. I can't see anyone stating that men are the major readers of Romance on Literotica. I saw a statement that comments are more frequent from men (or those who say they are men) but comments are a tiny percentage of views. Comments prove nothing.

I think you are getting yourself angry about something that has NOT been said.

Not angry. Frustrated maybe, but not angry. The rockheadedness that runs rampant on this subforum is legendary. The below illustrates that perfectly.

The average American is different from every other denizen of the planet.
The average Canadian is different from every other denizen of the planet.
The average Chinese is different from every other denizen of the planet.

And all are different from each other.

You are trying to prove that the average Lit reader is just like every other denizen of the planet and that is just as wrong as the opposite.

So, are you saying that the average Lit reader is something special? Something that hasn't ever been seen before in the entire history of the world in literature?

People are individuals. Where they're from makes no difference. Nor does their religion, gender, sexual preferences, or anything else.

However, when it comes to writing you don't write for the individual. You write for the masses. You don't write books on sports and try to hawk them to people who don't like sports. You don't write books on the benefits of red wine for good health and promote them at an AA meeting. If you choose to do this, while expecting success and a good reception, you are going to be disappointed.

Any marketing consultant will tell you that doing any of that is stupid. Writing Romance for men is the same thing.

 

[oggbashan]

HisArpy, I still think you are seeing something in this thread that isn't there.

Posters have said they have written Romance from a man's POV. That isn't particularly unusual even in mainstream Romance.

Posters have also said that they have had comments on Romance stories from people who say (or appear to be) men. Comments on Literotica are so few compared with the number of views that the number from men proves nothing.

What has NOT been said in this thread is that Romance on Literotica is written mainly for men. I can't see anyone saying that. I can see you saying that Romance SHOULD be written for women but you don't appear to be contradicting any other poster.

Why people write and post stories for Literotica, including stories in the Romance category, can only be deduced from anecdotal evidence - what the few authors who post in any forum say. Statistically that is unsound.

In mainstream publishing profit is the driving force. On Literotica it isn't otherwise we wouldn't be posting on a free-to-view site.

What is Romance?

Mainstream publishers set and enforce their own criteria.

On Literotica, the individual author decides to put a story into the Romance category even if that decision might be perverse. Sometimes Laurel changes the category but she does that rarely. The definition of Romance on Literotica is what the author thinks it is.

You may think the Literotica authors' definitions of Romance are wrong and stupid. But they chose the category. We just have to live with whatever they have decided.

 

[Halin24]

For what it's worth...

Though I have only submitted 10 stories, 8 of them are in Romance since it is my default category kind of. English is not my first language, but from what I have seen here on Lit I'm not the worst writer grammatically. I have never written from a woman's POV. When it comes to sex my stories range from nothing other than hinted / suggested sex to full descriptions. Currently my romance stories are voted between 4.42 and 4.85 (from previous experience expected to go down after this...).

So, I won't say that I'm an expert in any way, but here is my input.

* Expect comments about your grammar (especially if you ask for it). Some will be constructive, some meant to hurt. It is also possible (at least if you make it clear that you're not a native English speaker) that you will be defended by other commenters on the issue.

* If the story is short or long doesn't matter much since you will probably get comments that it's too long and too short at the same time anyway. The important thing is that it is romantic in some way. The primary aspect should be emotions, drama or everyday life, not the physical rutting or fantastic world-building.

* You better stay within 'character': if you start out slow and detailed you should finish slow and detailed. Change the pace in any way and you'll be told you did something wrong.

*If you try to write about 'difficult' things and do it fairly well with a sensitive touch it is appreciated. Unexpected turns is not a problem either as long as it stays in character and is 'romantic'. Paint pictures of humans, not superheros or sexual athletes, and you'll probably be fine. Forget about the human aspect and you'll be flamed.

*Trolls? Call it what you want, but there certainly are some 'strange' things around. How about a member or two reading every story you write (Every!) and commenting that it has no plot, no action, is mediocre at best and worth 3 stars only because of the work you put in writing it? In other words, if they hadn't appreciated the amount of work the score would have been 1 or 2 stars only...Yet they continue to read everything you write... Be prepared for anything and don't take comments too seriously.

*Forget about the male POV / female POV issue. If you write an okay story that fits the bill, and you are satisfied with 14.000 reads and a score around 4.4 - 4.6 after a year, then you most certainly will feel at home in the romance category.

I would say that romance is a friendly and accepting category if you stay within its limits and / or warn the readers of anything out of the ordinary in a foreword. If you aim for a 4.95 score and 100.000 reads you have to write something spectacular, but that is true in any category. So, if the focus is emotional rather than physical, go for romance!

 

[Kojak01]

So, are you saying that the average Lit reader is something special? Something that hasn't ever been seen before in the entire history of the world in literature?

People are individuals. Where they're from makes no difference. Nor does their religion, gender, sexual preferences, or anything else.

You cannot conclude from the population to a randomly selected subgroup. The statistically average American is different than the statistically average Texan or the statistically average Californian or the statistically average Christian, male or gay.

 

[8letters]

Men can be romantic. Men can also enjoy romance books (I've read a ton of romance). However, when it comes to romance works, men are not the target audience, women are.

If you go and read what the various publishers want for content when it comes to romance books, you'll see it comes down to demographics. Writing a story that is intended to appeal to a specific audience requires you to write for that audience, not the general readership at large. If the general readership responds favorably along with the target audience, then you did better than expected.

You seem to be confusing the buyers of Romance novels with the readers of Romance stories on a free porn site. They're not the same group of people.

From all the feedback I've gotten from my incest stories, my readership is overwhelmingly male even though I consider my stories very-woman friendly. I don't find it the least bit surprising that Romance would be the same. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the readership of Lesbian is overwhelmingly male.

 

[RejectReality]

The thing is, Lit is so heavily dominated by male visitors ( as borne out by every demographic breakdown on every statistics site ) that expecting a reasonably well-trafficked category like Romance not to have at least a decent sized male readership doesn't wash.

Whether it be scores, comments, views, or favorites, I've never seen any evidence that simply having a male POV character hurts a story there either.

Trying to compare a segment of the publishing industry that has actively excluded male authors and male POV characters since inception to Lit, which never has, also doesn't really work. There are also additional factors around traditional romance publishing that exclude/discourage males. Purchasing a physical copy marks you. Purchasing a digital copy marks you and quickly pigeon-holes you into a targeted marketing demographic. If someone doesn't favorite or comment on Lit, none of that applies, because they're nothing more than a view or vote number. It's easier to avoid the stigma.

"Write for women" as in stories that follow certain preferences traditionally assigned as "feminine". Yes. That's obvious from the performance of stories. "Write for women" as in there aren't enough men reading there to amount to a hill of beans? That smells of hogwash.

 

[HisArpy]

You seem to be confusing the buyers of Romance novels with the readers of Romance stories on a free porn site. They're not the same group of people.

From all the feedback I've gotten from my incest stories, my readership is overwhelmingly male even though I consider my stories very-woman friendly. I don't find it the least bit surprising that Romance would be the same. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the readership of Lesbian is overwhelmingly male.

You, like others, seem to insist on ignoring the data that shows that the self-identified gender of the average Lit reader is FALSIFIED. Unless you can prove that those commenters provided you with their gender, and they told the truth in their communications with you, you have no actual basis to make ANY claims on gender of the readership anywhere. I can just as easily claim that aliens are the main group comprising the readership in the Sci-Fi category, because they won't identify as either male or female since they aren't and thus choose "not specified", and be just as accurate as you are.

That is to say - not very.

There are stats, compiled by people whose job it is to get those stats and get them correct. These stats are well known and provable. Yet your group INSISTS that the stats are wrong and you are correct. The stats have years of data to support them, and you have a quick glance at the member profiles of someone who may or may not have lied about their gender.

But you're right and the world is wrong.

Lit isn't unique in it's makeup as compared to the rest of the world. Do you REALLY THINK that the readership here doesn't browse the stacks at B&N or shop/buy on Amazon?