Americans equally divided over Trump impeachment: Poll

[ChloeTzang]

It's fascinating the way people can see the same events and just have totally different opinions about what's happening. I have a genuine question for the pro-Trump people on here. As far as I'm concerned, Trump is just about the most disastrous president in history and every day presents another chapter of unprecedented calamity, ineptness and disgrace. Is that how things seemed to you when Obama was in office?

Yep. We just didn't go batshit crazy over it. We probably will next go round though. The next Democrat President is going to have a truly awesome time in office.

 

[RelentlessOnanism]

I'm not particularly pro-Trump, nor was I particularly pro-Obama.

(I guess you'd call me a "constitutionalist." Most important to me are the various personal, civil, and property rights recognized by the Constitution. Thus, I end up agreeing with some things Democrats do, some things Republicans do, and disagreeing with a lot that both parties do.)

I'm curious (honestly): can you identify for us what Trump has done so far that you consider "disastrous" or a "calamity"?

I think that will help people better respond to your question.

Well, pretty much everything, to be honest. Everything he says, everything he tweets, every cabinet appointment he's made, every judicial nominee he's selected. As far as I'm concerned he's the most inept and loathsome human being ever to set foot in the Oval Office. But that's the point I'm making. I'm a real lefty liberal, so it may just be that I'm terribly biased and being unfair to Trump. Did conservatives feel the same sense of astonishment, embarrassment, anger, disbelief, shock when Obama was in power?

 

[RelentlessOnanism]

Yep. We just didn't go batshit crazy over it. We probably will next go round though. The next Democrat President is going to have a truly awesome time in office.

I'm not sure you're entirely right about the right not going batshit crazy, to be honest, but, either way, it paints a particularly depressing picture of what America is going to be like in the coming years. The insanity is just going to get worse and worse with every passing administration.

 

[PrincepsCyberius]

Well, pretty much everything, to be honest. Everything he says, everything he tweets, every cabinet appointment he's made, every judicial nominee he's selected. As far as I'm concerned he's the most inept and loathsome human being ever to set foot in the Oval Office. But that's the point I'm making. I'm a real lefty liberal, so it may just be that I'm terribly biased and being unfair to Trump. Did conservatives feel the same sense of astonishment, embarrassment, anger, disbelief, shock when Obama was in power?

I guess I'm still not understanding you about "disaster" or "calamity." You talk about actions. "Disaster" and "calamity" are results. While Trump has done a lot of things I wish he hadn't, I don't see where anything Trump has done has yet resulted in a "disaster" or "calamity." Can you help me here? Point to a specific "disaster" or "calamity" resulting from one of these tweets, appointments, or statements. It will make it easier to compare to Obama.

 

[RelentlessOnanism]

I guess I'm still not understanding you about "disaster" or "calamity." You talk about actions. "Disaster" and "calamity" are results. While Trump has done a lot of things I wish he hadn't, I don't see where anything Trump has done has yet resulted in a "disaster" or "calamity." Can you help me here? Point to a specific "disaster" or "calamity" resulting from one of these tweets, appointments, or statements. It will make it easier to compare to Obama.

I think you're getting overly focused on my slightly hyperbolic language. Just shelve that for now. Thankfully, a combination of Trump's general ineptness and incompetence, combined with difficult Congressional mathematics and Republican ideological incoherence, mean he hasn't been able to do too much damage.

Suffice to say, I don't like Trump and think he's a very bad president. Historically bad. Just an awful human being who shouldn't have got anywhere near the White House. And I admit that might be a distorted or unfair view. The query I have, is do those on the other side feel Obama was that bad? And are they prepared to admit that their perception could also be distorted or unfair?

 

[sr71plt]

Well, pretty much everything, to be honest. Everything he says, everything he tweets, every cabinet appointment he's made, every judicial nominee he's selected. As far as I'm concerned he's the most inept and loathsome human being ever to set foot in the Oval Office.

Bingo. It doesn't really require interpretation or all that much intelligence. The man does himself in all by himself several times a day. Yesterday it was politicizing the Boy Scouts. Last night it was another insane attack on his AG. Today it was his simplistic, unprepared policy statement in a Tweet on a very sticky Armed Forces issue. Two and three times a day he's his own personal disaster area clawing at the fabric of the American system.

 

[PrincepsCyberius]

I think you're getting overly focused on my slightly hyperbolic language. Just shelve that for now. Thankfully, a combination of Trump's general ineptness and incompetence, combined with difficult Congressional mathematics and Republican ideological incoherence, mean he hasn't been able to do too much damage.

Suffice to say, I don't like Trump and think he's a very bad president. Historically bad. Just an awful human being who shouldn't have got anywhere near the White House. And I admit that might be a distorted or unfair view. The query I have, is do those on the other side feel Obama was that bad? And are they prepared to admit that their perception could also be distorted or unfair?

Clearly, the right often overreacted to things Obama did. Had a Republican president acted similarly, many on the right, especially card-carrying Republicans, would have applauded it. That said, I think there are two or three things Obama did that actually resulted in "disaster" or "calamity," albeit, in most cases, for people outside the USA.

The easiest to demonstrate of Obama actions calamitous to people outside the USA was the establishment of the ISIS theocracy in eastern Syria and western Iraq. This resulted directly from his premature withdrawal of American combat forces from Iraq, exacerbated by his empty "red line" threat against Syria. Of course, he did learn from this, and thereafter left sufficient combat troops in Afghanistan to ensure it did not fall back into the hands of the Taliban. I'm not sure this is much consolation, however, to the Jews, Christians, and Shiite Muslims suffering and dying at ISIS's hands. Likewise, it probably is not much consolation to the Ukrainians who lost out a big part of their country when Putin correctly read Obama as a paper tiger, again in large part do to his hollow threats against Assad and ISIS in Syria, and his failure to fulfill treaty obligations to our Eastern European allies to provide anti-missile defense systems to them.

At home, the disaster was, and remains, the ACA. Remember his promises: You can keep you doctor and current plan, and still save $2500 per family per year. Just the opposite has happened. Premiums have skyrocketed for plans with significantly higher deductibles and co-pays. Across the country, and especially in the 30 or so states that did not expand Medicare under the ACA, this has been a calamity for the poor and lower middle class.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Trump's actions as President won't lead to similar "disasters" and "calamity." They just haven't yet. So it is, right now, hard to compare the outrage against Obama's actual disasters to the potential calamity of the Trump presidency.

 

[RelentlessOnanism]

Clearly, the right often overreacted to things Obama did. Had a Republican president acted similarly, many on the right, especially card-carrying Republicans, would have applauded it. That said, I think there are two or three things Obama did that actually resulted in "disaster" or "calamity," albeit, in most cases, for people outside the USA.

The easiest to demonstrate of Obama actions calamitous to people outside the USA was the establishment of the ISIS theocracy in eastern Syria and western Iraq. This resulted directly from his premature withdrawal of American combat forces from Iraq, exacerbated by his empty "red line" threat against Syria. Of course, he did learn from this, and thereafter left sufficient combat troops in Afghanistan to ensure it did not fall back into the hands of the Taliban. I'm not sure this is much consolation, however, to the Jews, Christians, and Shiite Muslims suffering and dying at ISIS's hands. Likewise, it probably is not much consolation to the Ukrainians who lost out a big part of their country when Putin correctly read Obama as a paper tiger, again in large part do to his hollow threats against Assad and ISIS in Syria, and his failure to fulfill treaty obligations to our Eastern European allies to provide anti-missile defense systems to them.

At home, the disaster was, and remains, the ACA. Remember his promises: You can keep you doctor and current plan, and still save $2500 per family per year. Just the opposite has happened. Premiums have skyrocketed for plans with significantly higher deductibles and co-pays. Across the country, and especially in the 30 or so states that did not expand Medicare under the ACA, this has been a calamity for the poor and lower middle class.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Trump's actions as President won't lead to similar "disasters" and "calamity." They just haven't yet. So it is, right now, hard to compare the outrage against Obama's actual disasters to the potential calamity of the Trump presidency.

Well, that's an interesting take on events. Thank you.

 

[dan_c00000]

There's a case called CREW v. Trump you can find the original complaint here.

 

[Hypoxia]

The easiest to demonstrate of Obama actions calamitous to people outside the USA was the establishment of the ISIS theocracy in eastern Syria and western Iraq.

ISIS began in 2004. Blame Dubya's bogus Iraq invasion, not Obama's inherited mess. BTW the current Syria-Iraq crises evolved from global-warming-induced drought and famine. Dubya's destabilizations merely compounded the disaster.

At home, the disaster was, and remains, the ACA.

You mean RomneyCare, the GOP plan to counter Hillary's single-payer proposal. Medicare's overhead is ~4%. Pre-ACA, private healthcare's overhead was ~24%. Yup, one-fifth of all medical dollars went directly into the pockets of stockholders and executives. With ACA that's limited to ~16%, so you're only throwing away one-eight of your money. Yes, it's still a disaster, engineered by Guppies -- who have refused to provide promised funding, the liars.

 

[sr71plt]

The primary problem with ACA has been the opposition's (Republican Congress and industry profiteers) work to sabotage it. While admitting that it needs to be tweaked and cleaned up, the Democratic Party leadership in Congress has agreed/is willing to work with the Republicans to clean it up. But the Republican leadership in Congress is unwilling even to let representatives of their own party to work on it. So, the primary problem with ACA is the Republicans themselves.

 

[BotanyBoy]

ISIS began in 2004. Blame Dubya's bogus Iraq invasion, not Obama's inherited mess. BTW the current Syria-Iraq crises evolved from global-warming-induced drought and famine. Dubya's destabilizations merely compounded the disaster.

You mean RomneyCare, the GOP plan to counter Hillary's single-payer proposal. Medicare's overhead is ~4%. Pre-ACA, private healthcare's overhead was ~24%. Yup, one-fifth of all medical dollars went directly into the pockets of stockholders and executives. With ACA that's limited to ~16%, so you're only throwing away one-eight of your money. Yes, it's still a disaster, engineered by Guppies -- who have refused to provide promised funding, the liars.

Jesus Christ not even Merc was this delusional of a partisan hack.

 

[JackLuis]

Admit it, Drump is a Dick, end of statement!​

 

[Carnal_Flower]

If Obamacare is such a disaster, why is it steadily growing in approva
approval?

Why do the same fools who cheer Trump go home and love the healthcare they're too stupid to realize is Obamacare?

Why did the masses rise up for it in Town Halls?

Why can't Rs just repeal it?

Why are bankruptcy rates so low?

Why would 30 million lose coverage if it were repealed?

The ACA needs fixing D's admit, but it's no more a disaster than Obama's economy, which Trump is trying to take credit for.

Clearly, the right often overreacted to things Obama did. Had a Republican president acted similarly, many on the right, especially card-carrying Republicans, would have applauded it. That said, I think there are two or three things Obama did that actually resulted in "disaster" or "calamity," albeit, in most cases, for people outside the USA.

The easiest to demonstrate of Obama actions calamitous to people outside the USA was the establishment of the ISIS theocracy in eastern Syria and western Iraq. This resulted directly from his premature withdrawal of American combat forces from Iraq, exacerbated by his empty "red line" threat against Syria. Of course, he did learn from this, and thereafter left sufficient combat troops in Afghanistan to ensure it did not fall back into the hands of the Taliban. I'm not sure this is much consolation, however, to the Jews, Christians, and Shiite Muslims suffering and dying at ISIS's hands. Likewise, it probably is not much consolation to the Ukrainians who lost out a big part of their country when Putin correctly read Obama as a paper tiger, again in large part do to his hollow threats against Assad and ISIS in Syria, and his failure to fulfill treaty obligations to our Eastern European allies to provide anti-missile defense systems to them.

At home, the disaster was, and remains, the ACA. Remember his promises: You can keep you doctor and current plan, and still save $2500 per family per year. Just the opposite has happened. Premiums have skyrocketed for plans with significantly higher deductibles and co-pays. Across the country, and especially in the 30 or so states that did not expand Medicare under the ACA, this has been a calamity for the poor and lower middle class.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Trump's actions as President won't lead to similar "disasters" and "calamity." They just haven't yet. So it is, right now, hard to compare the outrage against Obama's actual disasters to the potential calamity of the Trump presidency.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Holdover Democrats are up to BS.

Why don't they just fire them all?

http://www.christianpost.com/news/i...ns-removed-state-department-documents-193327/

ETA: and the guy responsible even looks like a dipshit. https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/07/...s-to-isis-genocide-against-christians-yazidis

 

[DawnODay]

If Obamacare is such a disaster, why is it steadily growing in approva
approval?

It's not. Are you familiar with the sometimes legitimate ways pollsters manipulate the sampling and how it can be abused? Every poll suggesting increased approval in Obamacare has over-sampled Democrats, some even worse than this poll on impeachment (I like using pictures), which is what this thread is primarily about:

​

As for the polls on Obamacare:

Obamacare: More Rigged Polls​

Those polls are fake news but, please, keep believing them, just like you believed all the polls about Hillary's popularity last autumn. The more deluded you are, the less harm you can do.

Why do the same fools who cheer Trump go home and love the healthcare they're too stupid to realize is Obamacare?

Is this actually happening? Where? For that matter, where is your evidence that it is happening?

What makes you think most of them are on Obamacare plans, rather than plans provided by employers?

I'll grant you, though, if it is happening, then you're right, they are fools.

Why did the masses rise up for it in Town Halls?

Really? It's been known for months now that those were not spontaneous uprisings by "the masses," but protests organized by Democrats and funded by Democrat donors. (Note that the underlines are not just for emphasis, but are links to sources.)

Why can't Rs just repeal it?

Good question. I wish they would. The main fix should be to take away most of the unnecessary mandated coverage areas that have driven up premiums and deductibles. They should also take down the legal barriers to interstate commerce in insurance.

Why are bankruptcy rates so low?

Because the most economically vulnerable people went bankrupt following the 2008 Great Recession and the series of lesser recessions that followed.

Why would 30 million lose coverage if it were repealed?

If you read the CBO report on this, you would find that most of those 30 million would not "lose" coverage, they would choose to not buy it, as they are forced to do now under Obamacare.

It's this crazy little thing we like to call: FREEDOM.

The ACA needs fixing D's admit, but it's no more a disaster than Obama's economy, which Trump is trying to take credit for.

You're right, the Obama economy was a disaster. True, he inherited economic problems after the 2008 real estate crash, but he made the resulting recession longer and deeper than necessary by deficit spending and over-regulation of the economy.

Let's consider a few numbers:

Under Obama:

Lowest labor participation rate since women actively entered the main workforce in the early 1970s.

Record number of people on "Food Stamps."

Worst of all: He almost doubled the Federal deficit from just over $11 trillion to almost $19 trillion in just one administration.​

Or, what really shows it well:

This debt will cause us, or our children, real problem some day.

Now, the Obama years were not the complete disaster a lot of his critics suggest. If they had been, then we would not have had the recovery of the last six months. On the other hand, while it is often the case that the prior Administration can take the credit or blame for what occurs in the early months of its successor, I don't think we can underestimate the psychological effect on the economy when going from a essentially anti-business administration to a pro-business administration.

We saw this in Wisconsin. Our prior governor, Jim Doyle, was very anti-business and his taxing and spending had Wisconsin going the way of Illinois. Even after ill-advisedly and in one case illegally raiding other funds to try to balance his budget, he left Scott Walker with a > $3 billion deficit when Walker became governor. By various business and citizen friendly policies, Walker turned the state around. He not only balanced the budget every year, he produced a surplus, all while lowering taxes. When Doyle was Governor, our schools had to lay off teachers because they were so poorly funded, under Walker, teacher hiring is up, as is school funding. Businesses were fleeing Wisconsin under Doyle, they are flocking here under Walker.

Just today:

Trump is clearly effecting the overall economy the same way. Business-people believe that they will face less government interference and lower taxes, so they have started investing again. That is why almost a million new jobs have arisen in the past six months. Remember that historically low labor participation rate under Obama? Since Trump became president, it has grown to the highest its been in three decades. Trump deserves much of the credit for this, simply by being pro-business and encouraging business to grow in the USA again.


.

 

[dan_c00000]

It's not.

It is. Ruined.

I can misrepresent the size of the debt too. Interesting how you lied about Obamacare and saying polls were manipulated and then you go and use a manipulated graph. Double ruined.

 

[Boxlicker101]

It's not. Are you familiar with the sometimes legitimate ways pollsters manipulate the sampling and how it can be abused? Every poll suggesting increased approval in Obamacare has over-sampled Democrats, some even worse than this poll on impeachment (I like using pictures), which is what this thread is primarily about:

​

As for the polls on Obamacare:

Obamacare: More Rigged Polls​

Those polls are fake news but, please, keep believing them, just like you believed all the polls about Hillary's popularity last autumn. The more deluded you are, the less harm you can do.




Is this actually happening? Where? For that matter, where is your evidence that it is happening?

What makes you think most of them are on Obamacare plans, rather than plans provided by employers?

I'll grant you, though, if it is happening, then you're right, they are fools.




Really? It's been known for months now that those were not spontaneous uprisings by "the masses," but protests organized by Democrats and funded by Democrat donors. (Note that the underlines are not just for emphasis, but are links to sources.)




Good question. I wish they would. The main fix should be to take away most of the unnecessary mandated coverage areas that have driven up premiums and deductibles. They should also take down the legal barriers to interstate commerce in insurance.




Because the most economically vulnerable people went bankrupt following the 2008 Great Recession and the series of lesser recessions that followed.




If you read the CBO report on this, you would find that most of those 30 million would not "lose" coverage, they would choose to not buy it, as they are forced to do now under Obamacare.

It's this crazy little thing we like to call: FREEDOM.




You're right, the Obama economy was a disaster. True, he inherited economic problems after the 2008 real estate crash, but he made the resulting recession longer and deeper than necessary by deficit spending and over-regulation of the economy.

Let's consider a few numbers:

Under Obama:

Lowest labor participation rate since women actively entered the main workforce in the early 1970s.

Record number of people on "Food Stamps."

Worst of all: He almost doubled the Federal deficit from just over $11 trillion to almost $19 trillion in just one administration.​

Or, what really shows it well:

This debt will cause us, or our children, real problem some day.

Now, the Obama years were not the complete disaster a lot of his critics suggest. If they had been, then we would not have had the recovery of the last six months. On the other hand, while it is often the case that the prior Administration can take the credit or blame for what occurs in the early months of its successor, I don't think we can underestimate the psychological effect on the economy when going from a essentially anti-business administration to a pro-business administration.

We saw this in Wisconsin. Our prior governor, Jim Doyle, was very anti-business and his taxing and spending had Wisconsin going the way of Illinois. Even after ill-advisedly and in one case illegally raiding other funds to try to balance his budget, he left Scott Walker with a > $3 billion deficit when Walker became governor. By various business and citizen friendly policies, Walker turned the state around. He not only balanced the budget every year, he produced a surplus, all while lowering taxes. When Doyle was Governor, our schools had to lay off teachers because they were so poorly funded, under Walker, teacher hiring is up, as is school funding. Businesses were fleeing Wisconsin under Doyle, they are flocking here under Walker.

Just today:

Trump is clearly effecting the overall economy the same way. Business-people believe that they will face less government interference and lower taxes, so they have started investing again. That is why almost a million new jobs have arisen in the past six months. Remember that historically low labor participation rate under Obama? Since Trump became president, it has grown to the highest its been in three decades. Trump deserves much of the credit for this, simply by being pro-business and encouraging business to grow in the USA again.


.

I have heard there is also a lot of new investment in Kenosha County.

 

[LincolnDuncan]

Off topic, sorry for the violation of protocol. I'm surprised that there is no thread about the president of the United States very unpresidential behavior in front of national representation of the Boy Scouts of America

 

[Carnal_Flower]

Omg, you're onto us!!

It's a little known fact those are all millennial Democrats made up to look like elderly folk terrified of losing their healthcare. Those walkers are full of poison darts!

And I just bought a new car with my personal check from George Soros!

Really? It's been known for months now that those were not spontaneous uprisings by "the masses," but protests organized by Democrats and funded by Democrat donors. (Note that the underlines are not just for emphasis, but are links to sources.)

 

[JayPierce95]

I wonder for the people who despise Trump if the destabilization of the country and further loss of trust in government caused by an impeachment is worth having Mike Pence? You could argue that Pence's better competency and even more conservative views would solidify stronger conservative principles for a longer period of time. It's not like if Trump is impeached the country gets Kasich or Jeb for a couple years.

 

[Hypoxia]

I wonder for the people who despise Trump if the destabilization of the country and further loss of trust in government caused by an impeachment is worth having Mike Pence? You could argue that Pence's better competency and even more conservative views would solidify stronger conservative principles for a longer period of time. It's not like if Trump is impeached the country gets Kasich or Jeb for a couple years.

I'm not the first to label Pence as Tromp's guarantee against assassination, same as Palin for McCain had they won. But impeachment (indictment) and trial and removal are unlikely with Gups running Congress. Situation may change after the mid-terms; Dums may take control and impeach etc leaving new Prez Pence with a hostile audience.

I've mentioned a scary scenario: Tromp orders nuke strikes on Pyongyang or Beijing or wherever. Military refuses and stages coup. But here's a scarier one:

In the next few weeks, as Mueller closes in on Tromp's financial which will show he's owned by Russia, Mooch dramatically announces the foiling of a coup attempt. Conspirators have been arrested. Stay calm. Then a bomb explodes in USA. Tromp declares state of emergency. Civilian media are shuttered; only 'official' communications are allowed. Emergency curfews and checkpoints are established. Dissidents are detained. Order is restored.

Oh no, that can't happen here! [/me shakes cloudy crystal ball] Or maybe...

 

[sr71plt]

I think we may have gotten beyond the point, given Trump's behavior, where police powers would willy-nilly follow his orders on takeover or suppression moves. We're already having the military ignoring uncoordinated tweeted policy. I'll just note again that the worst move he's ever made (for himself) was to attack the intell community.

 

[JayPierce95]

I think we may have gotten beyond the point, given Trump's behavior, where police powers would willy-nilly follow his orders on takeover or suppression moves. We're already having the military ignoring uncoordinated tweeted policy. I'll just note again that the worst move he's ever made (for himself) was to attack the intell community.

Very true. He has no command of facts, but then has the audacity to attack people who search for them. The intel community has been able to run unchecked and ungoverned since the Patriot Act, but the solution isn't criticizing them publicly. When Trump won he claimed to have won by more electoral votes than any Republican in history. Then a reporter said that wasn't true, and he shrugged it off and said he was just told that... so he believed it. Then he blasts the intel community for being dishonest.

An outsider can seem attractive, but in no other field do we suggest putting someone with absolutely no experience in charge of that field's major organization. If someone suggested that a career politician become the CEO of Apple, we'd all say that's insane. But then someone with no political experience wants to run for president, and we've allowed that to happen on a few occasions.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Very true. He has no command of facts, but then has the audacity to attack people who search for them. The intel community has been able to run unchecked and ungoverned since the Patriot Act, but the solution isn't criticizing them publicly. When Trump won he claimed to have won by more electoral votes than any Republican in history. Then a reporter said that wasn't true, and he shrugged it off and said he was just told that... so he believed it. Then he blasts the intel community for being dishonest.

An outsider can seem attractive, but in no other field do we suggest putting someone with absolutely no experience in charge of that field's major organization. If someone suggested that a career politician become the CEO of Apple, we'd all say that's insane. But then someone with no political experience wants to run for president, and we've allowed that to happen on a few occasions.

I can't believe Trump would ever think he had more electoral votes than any other Rep. POTUS in history, or the biggest margin. Most successful GOP candidates would rank ahead of him in either: http://2008election.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=001565

Do you actually have a quote of him saying that?

ETA: Okay, this seems to be what he actually said: https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/po...ollege-math/KHswU4UHapBvLjLgemBt7M/story.html

He was still wrong, because the elder Bush had more.