a haiku is more than 5-7-5

[AlinaX]

between the red lights
a rare african swallow
plays the coconuts

 

[thejabber27]

A warm little ball
Softly stepping creaky floors
A majestic night

 

[AlinaX]

a nightingale sings
of a departing lover
while her husband sleeps

 

[EllenMore]

the forest seems still--
then we spy a fox, walking
through the dead, dried leaves

 

[BellaBestia]

While I agree with Butter’s original critique of the failings of modern English haiku, it feels a little pedantic to try to strictly adhere to the parameters of Japanese haiku, after all it’s another language and while in Japanese one word can be one syllable and still carry much meaning, English has linguistic limitations and is a bit clumsy.

That being said, I was taught in school by a pretty progressive prof that, besides the syllable count, the only rule to follow is that the poem should evoke a feeling, using the atmosphere of nature is fine if you can but not necessary. So my prof approved (and published) haiku (that fits thematically with Literotica I think) is:

A discarded shirt
Belonging to my lover
I press it to me

 

[AlinaX]

her buttons undone
one by one I see her breasts
held by sticky tape

 

[thejabber27]

Lichen spotted bricks

Moss cemented cobblestone

Nature intertwined

 

[AlinaX]

I write my haiku
with my fingers firmly crossed
scissoring in style

 

[AlinaX]

nature, if you must...
his oaken branch jutting south
lichen at my back

 

[butters]

While I agree with Butter’s original critique of the failings of modern English haiku, it feels a little pedantic to try to strictly adhere to the parameters of Japanese haiku, after all it’s another language and while in Japanese one word can be one syllable and still carry much meaning, English has linguistic limitations and is a bit clumsy.

That being said, I was taught in school by a pretty progressive prof that, besides the syllable count, the only rule to follow is that the poem should evoke a feeling, using the atmosphere of nature is fine if you can but not necessary. So my prof approved (and published) haiku (that fits thematically with Literotica I think) is:

A discarded shirt
Belonging to my lover
I press it to me

hi, Bella... my real bug-bear is people calling something 'traditional haiku' when it's clearly not. There's room for all kinds of poetic expression, from simple 'shorts' right through the spectrum to full 'traditional haiku'. Your poem is a beautiful example of a senryu. A senryu follows the same 17-or less over (generally) 3 lines, but it is often more humorous or cynical than a haiku, and often lacks the 'nature' aspect (other than the nature of humans), the cutting word, and the seasonal reference. These absences mark a clear deviation from a recognised form... enough where their differences are greater than their similarities.

A delicious Japanese poet adapted the haiku form to allow it to address a human-based spectrum of ideas, emotions, foibles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karai_Senryū

 

[butters]

perfect apple pie
proof is in the eating
a sink full of dishes

 

[butters]

is it probable that more people enjoy to read and write senryu because it's more accessible, more immediate to human perception since it's dealing with the human condition directly? this is often the case in other forms of poetry when it comes to readers; and then we get into the whole 'what makes a poem good?' scenario... popularity, or greater depth&breadth?
the answer, as always, is a matter of the reader's perspective. Applies to other forms of art, too: i'm a big stephen king books fan, but i know he gets slated by those who enjoy far more complex, convoluted, original authors. I loathe the mills&boon/hallmark type books and films, and yet they're some of the biggest sellers worldwide.As i grow older, i find there's no such thing as good and bad taste, just different tastes that suit different palates and whatever pleases us best will head up our list of what constitutes 'good'.

at the end of the long and proverbial day, a good poem is still a good poem, no matter what we call it

 

[thejabber27]

Grafting branches
One trunk a delta of roots
Apple chimera

 

[AlinaX]

apple tea
drunk in the afternoon
between meetings

 

[AlinaX]

I count the inches
of thigh traversed by red lace
her panties falling

 

[29wordsforsnow]

one more opinion on the topic, maybe with one or two takeaway ideas.

 

[Britva415]

much more, though there's a general acceptance of a 5-7-5 layout that calls itself haiku but doesn't bother with any other aspects of haiku. some call it 'american' haiku; i call it lazy.

sure, there are some great little poems written as 5-7-5, but call them what they are - shorts/faux-ku/minis. I detest the spread of misinformation that has so many poets thinking any old thing written in that format IS a haiku. it's not.

it's strange that so many argue the opposite, yet remain silent on the 'rules' of a shakespearean sonnet, for example, or what compromises a ghazal, a villanelle, a limerick... who argues that ignoring rhyme scheme and syllable count, line reps or meter can be blithely ignored but their poem still MUST be accepted as the form they claim it to be? *crickets*
haiku seems to be the sole form this happens with!

it would seem the form often being taught as an initial introduction to poetry (because of its brevity) has lent itself to this incomplete idea that 5-7-5 alone=haiku

i'm all for breaking 'rules' but call things what they are; hell, even shakey's sonnets are different to petrarchan sonnets, but that's reflected in the name.

so, what are the basics of haiku?

• 17 syllables or less, over 1 to 3 lines long
• no title, rhymes or metrical scheme, limited punctuation or none at all
• a sort of snapshot, a moment in time, nature-based, in simple language not directly referencing human emotions and avoiding the poetic tools of simile or metaphor
• a seasonal reference, most often recognisable natural elements such as snow, a flower, or creature relevant to a specific time of year
• a juxtapositioning of imagery, generally brought together by a third line to give the piece its depth or 'aha' moment
• a 'cutting word', often marked by an em dash or ellipsis

by keeping people out of any emotional imagery, it allows the mind to apply the actual content to find meaning that relates to the human condition. there are reasons why haiku is considered an art form and not easy despite its simplistic appearance.


okay, so a pet peeve of mine; a peeve that inspired this faux-ku, non-ku, taking-the-piss-in-frustration ku:

oh hai

this is not a ku
i can count - five, seven, five
*chucks in a blossom*...

(additional punctuation deliberate )



Kireji (切れ字, lit. "cutting word") is the term for a special category of words used in certain types of Japanese traditional poetry. It is regarded as a requirement in traditional haiku, as well as in the hokku, or opening verse, of both classical renga and its derivative renku (haikai no renga).

a kiregi often comes halfway through a line



wiki puts it this way:






it'd be nice to see some attempts at haiku posted under this; they'll give a better understanding of the function and form

What's the verdict on whether any poem in English (or other non-Japanese language) can be regarded as haiku at all?

 

[29wordsforsnow]

What's the verdict on whether any poem in English (or other non-Japanese language) can be regarded as haiku at all?

I think that very much depends on your definition of haiku. In its strictest interpretation, from my point of view, you couldn't write new ones, because the historical setting is no more, and the understanding of the symbols and images that the original form implied has changed over time.
Which doesn't mean you couldn't write new haiku.

 

[Britva415]

I think that very much depends on your definition of haiku. In its strictest interpretation, from my point of view, you couldn't write new ones, because the historical setting is no more, and the understanding of the symbols and images that the original form implied has changed over time.
Which doesn't mean you couldn't write new haiku.

Not sure whether you're talking about English or not.

 

[29wordsforsnow]

Not sure whether you're talking about English or not.

Hmm, I think I'm talking more about then and now. From what I understand as its historical origin, the original haiku of the 18th century has its roots in the even older congregation of poets that improvised a string of short, strictly structured poems to entertain and prove the wit of that small group of poets. If you think back to the social reality of 18th-century Japan, it was a patriarchal, highly hierarchical, feudal system inward-looking society trying to maintain traditions and stay unchanged from outside influences. The original poets we're talking about were men of a higher class who created a codified language using symbols/very clear images that were intended to create emotions in like-minded of equal social (noble) stance. Translated to modern English, it's like Elon Musk's enigmatic tweets, they are short, - if so - deliver their message only to a small group of people, and with the complete indifference to the working class that support his lifestyle. From my point of view, trying to write a traditional haiku, would take a complete understanding of the codebook of these 18th-century poets, and in its effort to bring back 'the good old times' quite reactionary.

But also looking at the different languages, you should struggle with the 5-7-5 counting of the moras used in the traditional forms. A mora - 'a unit of phonological quantity' - is a subunit of a syllable - the use of 17 syllables in English is usually way more information than a haiku would hold, some say 10 to 14 English syllables would be about the same total size of a haiku.

So, if I may suggest, try to use the very concept of a haiku for your poetry writing - short structure, distinct words, and highly emotionally charged images - make one tool in your box of poetry writing instead of trying to mimic something the world has moved on from, the audience has changed in the meantime as well.

But, of course, there are different views.

 

[cascadiabound]

Foggy muted morn
Pewter drops on ev'ry twig
Tide softly recedes


A try. I too do not understand what a cutting word is.
But this is evocative of my morning environment

@butters

 

[butters]

What's the verdict on whether any poem in English (or other non-Japanese language) can be regarded as haiku at all?

i believe the essence of haiku may be reproduced across many languages. just don't throw up a 3-line, 5-7-5 full of human emoting/rhymes/showy words and tell me it's a 'traditional' haiku... or a haiku in any sense of the word in some cases!

 

[butters]

Foggy muted morn
Pewter drops on ev'ry twig
Tide softly recedes


A try. I too do not understand what a cutting word is.
But this is evocative of my morning environment

@butters

i do find this a beautiful, wistful, evocative poem that captures a lot of the essence of haiku; the fog may relate more specifically to a season depending on where you live.

the use of the word 'muted' is (imo) both redundant and less in keeping: it's already in the general data-bank of human experience that a foggy day delivers that muted sensation—obscuring visual, auditory and olfactory information. In that sense it's unnecessary in a haiku, but also consider the emotional content loaded into that word. As i understand it, Haiku depends more on the emotional response to the juxtaposed images and what they say to us as humans rather than the use of emotionally charged words themselves.

as a small, lovely poem in its own right, your use of muted is quite acceptable though it might potentially have a greater impact if you opted to shorten that to 'mute' giving you 'foggy mute morn/ing' or 'mute foggy morn'. For me, that has a greater impact by highlighting the sensation of the morning not speaking to us (via sound/scent/sight) as it normally would but in an alternate voice... one which emphasises the beauty in the droplets on each twig despite the greyness all around.

the use of ev'ry comes across (if considering haiku) as forcing your word to fit the count. However, if you opt to use the count of beats per line rather than direct syllabic count, you could as easily use every and retain the 3/4/3 structure.

i enjoy the sensation you offer in the last line, which speaks of an easing and seems perfectly applicable as this 'atmospheric river' departs an area. Like a breathing out.

the way i see it, the 'cutting word' is that place where one image stops and the other starts before the moment arrives when you most clearly connect the two to the human experience.

 

[cascadiabound]

i do find this a beautiful, wistful, evocative poem that captures a lot of the essence of haiku; the fog may relate more specifically to a season depending on where you live.

the use of the word 'muted' is (imo) both redundant and less in keeping: it's already in the general data-bank of human experience that a foggy day delivers that muted sensation—obscuring visual, auditory and olfactory information. In that sense it's unnecessary in a haiku, but also consider the emotional content loaded into that word. As i understand it, Haiku depends more on the emotional response to the juxtaposed images and what they say to us as humans rather than the use of emotionally charged words themselves.

as a small, lovely poem in its own right, your use of muted is quite acceptable though it might potentially have a greater impact if you opted to shorten that to 'mute' giving you 'foggy mute morn/ing' or 'mute foggy morn'. For me, that has a greater impact by highlighting the sensation of the morning not speaking to us (via sound/scent/sight) as it normally would but in an alternate voice... one which emphasises the beauty in the droplets on each twig despite the greyness all around.

the use of ev'ry comes across (if considering haiku) as forcing your word to fit the count. However, if you opt to use the count of beats per line rather than direct syllabic count, you could as easily use every and retain the 3/4/3 structure.

i enjoy the sensation you offer in the last line, which speaks of an easing and seems perfectly applicable as this 'atmospheric river' departs an area. Like a breathing out.

the way i see it, the 'cutting word' is that place where one image stops and the other starts before the moment arrives when you most clearly connect the two to the human experience.

Thank you for your comments.
I am sure I am a rampant offender of the Haiku form your OP objects to; probably will continue to write "American haikus"
but I also aim to improve my poems, imagery and use of words.
I appreciate this forum for giving me space to do so.

 

[butters]

Thank you for your comments.
I am sure I am a rampant offender of the Haiku form your OP objects to; probably will continue to write "American haikus"
but I also aim to improve my poems, imagery and use of words.
I appreciate this forum for giving me space to do so.

your poetry never offends x

it's just a bugbear of mine, that people demand i acknowledge their poems as 'traditional haiku' when they just are not

i always enjoy reading your poetry and it often leaves me in awe, as it continues to resonate across the spaces of my mind (some would say empty!) long after the moment of reading the words.

i'm happy you take my comments in the spirit they are intended: with honesty and purely from my own perspective, offered as a measure for you to see how your word choices (etc...,) impact this one reader.

this forum has helped us all, and continues to do so!