a haiku is more than 5-7-5

[butters]

much more, though there's a general acceptance of a 5-7-5 layout that calls itself haiku but doesn't bother with any other aspects of haiku. some call it 'american' haiku; i call it lazy.

sure, there are some great little poems written as 5-7-5, but call them what they are - shorts/faux-ku/minis. I detest the spread of misinformation that has so many poets thinking any old thing written in that format IS a haiku. it's not.

it's strange that so many argue the opposite, yet remain silent on the 'rules' of a shakespearean sonnet, for example, or what compromises a ghazal, a villanelle, a limerick... who argues that ignoring rhyme scheme and syllable count, line reps or meter can be blithely ignored but their poem still MUST be accepted as the form they claim it to be? *crickets*
haiku seems to be the sole form this happens with!

it would seem the form often being taught as an initial introduction to poetry (because of its brevity) has lent itself to this incomplete idea that 5-7-5 alone=haiku

i'm all for breaking 'rules' but call things what they are; hell, even shakey's sonnets are different to petrarchan sonnets, but that's reflected in the name.

so, what are the basics of haiku?

• 17 syllables or less, over 1 to 3 lines long
  
• no title, rhymes or metrical scheme, limited punctuation or none at all
  
• a sort of snapshot, a moment in time, nature-based, in simple language not directly referencing human emotions and avoiding the poetic tools of simile or metaphor
  
• a seasonal reference, most often recognisable natural elements such as snow, a flower, or creature relevant to a specific time of year
  
• a juxtapositioning of imagery, generally brought together by a third line to give the piece its depth or 'aha' moment
  
• a 'cutting word', often marked by an em dash or ellipsis

by keeping people out of any emotional imagery, it allows the mind to apply the actual content to find meaning that relates to the human condition. there are reasons why haiku is considered an art form and not easy despite its simplistic appearance.


okay, so a pet peeve of mine; a peeve that inspired this faux-ku, non-ku, taking-the-piss-in-frustration ku:

oh hai

this is not a ku
i can count - five, seven, five
*chucks in a blossom*...

(additional punctuation deliberate )



Kireji (切れ字, lit. "cutting word") is the term for a special category of words used in certain types of Japanese traditional poetry. It is regarded as a requirement in traditional haiku, as well as in the hokku, or opening verse, of both classical renga and its derivative renku (haikai no renga).

a kiregi often comes halfway through a line



wiki puts it this way:

Typical characteristics
"Haiku" in English is a term sometimes loosely applied to any short, impressionistic poem, but there are certain characteristics that are commonly associated with the genre:

• a focus on nature or the seasons[1][2]
• a division into two asymmetrical sections that juxtaposes two subjects (e.g. something natural and something human-made, two unexpectedly similar things, etc.)
• a contemplative or wistful tone and an impressionistic brevity[3][4][5]
• "telegram style" syntax; no superfluous words
• an emphasis on imagery over exposition
• avoidance of metaphor and similes
• non-rhyming lines

Some additional traits are especially associated with English-language haiku (as opposed to Japanese-language haiku):

a three-line format with 17 syllables arranged in a 5–7–5 pattern; or about 10 to 14 syllables, which more nearly approximates the duration of a Japanese haiku with the second line usually the longest. Some poets want their haiku to be expressed in one breath

little or no punctuation or capitalization, except that cuts are sometimes marked with dashes or ellipses and proper nouns are usually capitalized

it'd be nice to see some attempts at haiku posted under this; they'll give a better understanding of the function and form

 

[Tzara]

much more, though there's a general acceptance of a 5-7-5 layout that calls itself haiku but doesn't bother with any other aspects of haiku. some call it 'american' haiku; i call it lazy.

sure, there are some great little poems written as 5-7-5, but call them what they are - shorts/faux-ku/minis. I detest the spread of misinformation that has so many poets thinking any old thing written in that format IS a haiku. it's not.

it's strange that so many argue the opposite, yet remain silent on the 'rules' of a shakespearean sonnet, for example, or what compromises a ghazal, a villanelle, a limerick... who argues that ignoring rhyme scheme and syllable count, line reps or meter can be blithely ignored but their poem still MUST be accepted as the form they claim it to be? *crickets*
haiku seems to be the sole form this happens with!

Your general point is well taken, Ms. b, but actually there are quite a number of forms that people "ignore the rules" about. The term "sonnet" has been applied to poems with no rhyme scheme or fixed prosody, no "turn," not even a limitation to 14 lines. Adrienne Rich's ghazals are, at least he ones I've seen, unrhymed (and, if I remember correctly, not metrical); Robert Bly has written a number of "ghazals" that consist of three-line stanzas. Marilyn Hacker has written a number of of 22-line villanelles (I think I posted one somewhere in the Hangout) and one of my favorites (by John M. Ford) doesn't rhyme.

The bit you quoted from Wikipedia mentions that, in English, "about 10 to 14 syllables, ... more nearly approximates the duration of a Japanese haiku" as the 5-7-5 pattern is of on rather than syllables in the English sense (there are some examples of the difference in the Wikipedia article on on).

There are also other forms that follow the 5-7-5 pattern, like senryu and zappai (the katauta form that Angie was using in the three-line thread is either 5-7-5 or, more often, 5-7-7).

But yeah, it would be nice if more people paid attention to the characteristics of the form, at least to the extent that if you ignore some or all of the usual expectations, you're at least aware that that's what you're doing.

 

[butters]

 

[29wordsforsnow]

Apart from the language barrier, e.g. morae vs. syllables, I think also time, symbolism and people are what makes it even more challenging to do traditional haikus today.

It not only takes a poet to write one but also the right audience to understand. Could we, 21st century people, most of us non-japanese, even understand the usually quoted leaping frog? Most would imply that the season of the poem is not winter time, but would we narrow it down to spring - since the frog 'springs', but not 'falls' - by the way, isn't that a metaphor, or would you refer to this as cypher or something else?

Japanese society was very secluded and conservative - as in trying to maintain a status quo - in the classic haiku period so people could refer to a given set of language code. Nowadays, with our fast-paced lives, who would relate to the same thing, or situation implied a few years ago. E.g. 'apples just bitten' could have been understood as some time in late summer twenty years ago, but a certain contemporary audience might translate this into 'electronic gadget shop recently opened'...

I hope this one-sided modern view wasn't too offending, bit of a rebel on this side of the old pond.

 

[DreamingOfMyEx]

Sure is cold outside.
Please, what is a cutting word?
I still don't get it.


===

edit:

By the way, thanks for posting, Butters. I've always been curious, but not curious enough for the research to make it to the top of the priorities list.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I've never understood them enough, nor been pushed enough, to make the effort. I'm all for putting a lot in a small poem (long ones bore me) but these seem overly truncated!

 

[Remec]

jingling bell pierces
through both speech and foot traffic,
---collecting money



Okay, not the most Nature-based...but I just wandered in. (And I've been up all night working.) Will think on it some more and try again. *g*

 

[butters]

Apart from the language barrier, e.g. morae vs. syllables, I think also time, symbolism and people are what makes it even more challenging to do traditional haikus today.

It not only takes a poet to write one but also the right audience to understand. Could we, 21st century people, most of us non-japanese, even understand the usually quoted leaping frog? Most would imply that the season of the poem is not winter time, but would we narrow it down to spring - since the frog 'springs', but not 'falls' - by the way, isn't that a metaphor, or would you refer to this as cypher or something else?

Japanese society was very secluded and conservative - as in trying to maintain a status quo - in the classic haiku period so people could refer to a given set of language code. Nowadays, with our fast-paced lives, who would relate to the same thing, or situation implied a few years ago. E.g. 'apples just bitten' could have been understood as some time in late summer twenty years ago, but a certain contemporary audience might translate this into 'electronic gadget shop recently opened'...

I hope this one-sided modern view wasn't too offending, bit of a rebel on this side of the old pond.

your point about audience is very relevant, and i think there are some answers for you in this link below; creating haiku was often done in a social setting, as part of a sort of group-poem:

http://haikureality.theartofhaiku.com/esejeng96.htm

i found it perhaps one of the best i've read on the 'ripples' of the frog poem, the contrasts between the still, old pond and the action of the frog (denoting 'spring' as the season) but, deeper than that, the allusions (for his audience of those days) of the frog calling for a lover and then taking the great leap.

i would say the value of a haiku, whether it's a westernised version (and there ARE some really good westernised haiku!) or more japanese-styled, is in how well its composition creates ripples of afterthought in the reader's mind.


p.s

i love your 'apples just bitten'/apple (tech) analogy

 

[butters]

Sure is cold outside.
Please, what is a cutting word?
I still don't get it.


===

edit:

By the way, thanks for posting, Butters. I've always been curious, but not curious enough for the research to make it to the top of the priorities list.

a cutting word can be considered a verbal exclamation, defining the end of a haiku section (one of the images) but can come mid-line rather than using the more westernised expectation of line breaks to do this. they serve to punctuate and add emphasis

since traditional japanese haiku was written as one-liners, its importance was perhaps more defined.

 

[AlinaX]

frog tumbling
between the blades
I cut the grass

 

[butters]

I've never understood them enough, nor been pushed enough, to make the effort. I'm all for putting a lot in a small poem (long ones bore me) but these seem overly truncated!

i hear ya, annie

there's a fine line to tread between a haiku coming off as staccato telegraph-message style (which can be a distraction from the poem's content) and compact with a lot to unpack in the thinking that follows.

i'd say the main issue i have with the kind of pieces too many call haiku is that they lack the substance of an actual poem. all too often it's become a throw-away comment with no depth and lacking anything to create 'ripples' in its wake.

 

[butters]

frog tumbling
between the blades
I cut the grass

now this is a poem that gives the reader reason to think on, examine... reads like the precarious balance of living

 

[butters]

Your general point is well taken, Ms. b, but actually there are quite a number of forms that people "ignore the rules" about. The term "sonnet" has been applied to poems with no rhyme scheme or fixed prosody, no "turn," not even a limitation to 14 lines. Adrienne Rich's ghazals are, at least he ones I've seen, unrhymed (and, if I remember correctly, not metrical); Robert Bly has written a number of "ghazals" that consist of three-line stanzas. Marilyn Hacker has written a number of of 22-line villanelles (I think I posted one somewhere in the Hangout) and one of my favorites (by John M. Ford) doesn't rhyme.

The bit you quoted from Wikipedia mentions that, in English, "about 10 to 14 syllables, ... more nearly approximates the duration of a Japanese haiku" as the 5-7-5 pattern is of on rather than syllables in the English sense (there are some examples of the difference in the Wikipedia article on on).

There are also other forms that follow the 5-7-5 pattern, like senryu and zappai (the katauta form that Angie was using in the three-line thread is either 5-7-5 or, more often, 5-7-7).

But yeah, it would be nice if more people paid attention to the characteristics of the form, at least to the extent that if you ignore some or all of the usual expectations, you're at least aware that that's what you're doing.

thankyou for the information, mr T it's always appreciated, as is your point about knowing the rules to ignore the rules.

i would say, though, that haiku as a poetic form is the only one that garners such widespread disregard (almost universal disregard) of its parameters yet still declared the loudest as 'haiku', even as 'traditional' haiku. it bites my butt

 

[butters]

jingling bell pierces
through both speech and foot traffic,
---collecting money



Okay, not the most Nature-based...but I just wandered in. (And I've been up all night working.) Will think on it some more and try again. *g*

hi there, dark stranger!

well, you've certainly got your seasonal reference though this is perhaps more a nature sketch of the nature of man, directly, rather than 'nature' which, when reflected upon, shines light on the nature of being nice contrast between the bells and other sounds, plus the sound link between the metallic bells and the sound of coins.

has me thinking of the contrast in meaning between 'the christmas message' and the commercial counting of the cash

 

[butters]

just wanted to say a big thanks to all participating in this discussion. it's a true bug-bear of mine and in this climate of tidal misinformation one that reared its nastee li'l head.

i don't claim to write great haiku, but appreciate it when i read it. my own stuff tends to be 'shorts'

like this one:

ishi




石

presence of buddha
mountains washed by ocean
acceptance​

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Coffee cold in cup
not Summer's frappé - but more
my inattention.

Think this breaks all the rules! Oh well I like it!

 

[DreamingOfMyEx]

There once was a poet of haiku
Who tried to show others how to.
Hard as I tried
it wasn't inside.
Nevertheless, I said thank you!

 

[AlinaX]

there once was a haiku that rhymed
and, worse, it was rhythmically timed
it's lines counted more
than three - more than four!
and still ended prematurely

 

[Piscator]

there once was a haiku that rhymed
and, worse, it was rhythmically timed
it's lines counted more
than three - more than four!
and still ended prematurely

At times like this indeed
tis clear we really need
a like button.

 

[butters]

worn river boulder
mayfly here then gone
—six wet prints

 

[Mrtenant]

My experience
Several kus must be made
Ere twilight magic

 

[jthserra]

Not Seventeen

...okay, so a pet peeve of mine; a peeve that inspired this faux-ku, non-ku, taking-the-piss-in-frustration ku:

oh hai

this is not a ku
i can count - five, seven, five
*chucks in a blossom*...

(additional punctuation deliberate ) ...

...it'd be nice to see some attempts at haiku posted under this; they'll give a better understanding of the function and form

Due to some personal issues back in 2015 I pulled everything I had posted here under Jthserra and have just started posting some new and a few previously posted things. Like some here I was enamored with haiku and some of the other Japanese forms, but, like butters, I had gotten frustrated explaining time and again why I didn’t follow the strict 5-7-5 “rules”. To save myself from having to write the same explanation over and over again I put together some notes explaining why I did what I did. Well back in 2005 or so I posted those notes in the How To category with the title “Not Seventeen”. I followed with some articles on some of the other things she mentioned.

Seeing this conversation I thought I would post the notes again. I continued with some follow on writings on haiku and other forms as I wrote, read, submitted, discussed and learned. I will be posting those to if you care to take a look.

 

[jthserra]

haiku

juniper
beyond the cliff, beyond
_____forever

 

[jthserra]

Another cliff

distant cliff
the voices echo
_____in silence

 

[29wordsforsnow]

Haiku Math

clever over-sea poets
five, seven, five is seventeen
and all are prime numbers