LITEROTICA PODCAST
LIT CAMS (200 Free Tokens)ADULT TOYSVOD MOVIES

Standard Style that Bugs You

sr71plt

sr71plt

Literotica Guru
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Posts
51,872
We get the discussion on the boards of how to render thoughts in stories and most of us end up being dissatisfied with the choices the Chicago Manual of Style gives us (only either straight roman or in double quotes, just like spoken dialogue). But are there other standards you don't like?

For instance, I don't like that Webster's puts a hyphen in "good-bye," and thereby the CMS tells me that's how I should spell it in editing. Who doesn't want to spell it "goodbye" instead? And when the trend is toward getting rid of hyphens, why does that one still exist in the standard?
 
No spaces surrounding em dashes.

It just looks strange to me, and worse still, rendering it in my software of choice by typing two hyphens is problematic without the spaces.

I've forced myself to eliminate the space when used for cut-off speech, but otherwise, I refuse to conform.

Thankfully, I'm only writing for sites that don't seem to care, so I don't have to.
 
I'm sure it's no secret I hate the guidelines against italics for thoughts an internal dialogue. That's got to be my number one peeve here.

For a different one, I prefer to write "okay," but I think when I was e-publishing, I was told "ok" was preferred. I know what it means, of course, but when I see "ok" part of me wants to pronounce it "awk."
 
"OK" (full caps) is preferred in standard usage, with "okay" being secondary and accepted by some. Consistency on one of those choices is primary. It's rendered in nonstandard ways a lot before it gets to editors: "ok" (not capped), "Okay" (initially capped even when it doesn't begin a sentence) and "okey" (which isn't mentioned anywhere in Webster's)--but which I saw twice in copy today.
 
I don't like the standard spelling "Web site." What I see in use is "website."
 
RejectReality said:
No spaces surrounding em dashes.

It just looks strange to me, and worse still, rendering it in my software of choice by typing two hyphens is problematic without the spaces.

I've forced myself to eliminate the space when used for cut-off speech, but otherwise, I refuse to conform.

Thankfully, I'm only writing for sites that don't seem to care, so I don't have to.
Click to expand...

I've been editing so long that it stops me in my tracks when I see those spaces--and either a hyphen or an en dash used where there should be an em dash. I imagine that few authors know the difference between an en dash and an em dash, when to use which, or even how to produce them on a computer.
 
sr71plt said:
I've been editing so long that it stops me in my tracks when I see those spaces--and either a hyphen or an en dash used where there should be an em dash. I imagine that few authors know the difference between an en dash and an em dash, when to use which, or even how to produce them on a computer.
Click to expand...

Especially the bolded part. How do you produce them.

I agree with Penn Lady about not using italics for thoughts. It's the clearest method.

Generally it's time Brits conceded that US punctuation is generally simpler except for the propensity of some American authors to overdo the use of commas.
 
How do you produce them varies by the software. When you get down to the most basic form of text editing, you usually have to use a keyboard combination.

— Hey, it worked! I've never actually tried it LOL

It's hold down ALT then type 0151 and release the ALT key.
 
You can either just pull them down from the "symbols" list or, if you have that extra keyboard section to the right, holding down control and alt on the left keyboard and the hyphen on the right keyboard will produce an em dash. Holding down the control on the left keyboard and the hyphen on the right one will produce an en dash. (This doesn't work here on the forum on postings, but if you cut and past from your computer to here, they will appear correctly.)

It's U.S. publishers more than authors who use more commas than normal writing does--to keep the road map as clear as possible for the reader. Where authors use too many commas is in using one in front of a conjunction combining and independent clause and a dependent clause. Publishers use a comma there only for two independent clauses.
 
sr71plt said:
I've been editing so long that it stops me in my tracks when I see those spaces--and either a hyphen or an en dash used where there should be an em dash. I imagine that few authors know the difference between an en dash and an em dash, when to use which, or even how to produce them on a computer.
Click to expand...

An 'em dash' is ALT+0151 in Word and 'en dash' is ALT+0150
 
elfin_odalisque said:
An 'em dash' is ALT+0151 in Word and 'en dash' is ALT+0150
Click to expand...

I was referring to the difference in when you'd use them. The en dash is restricted to use in number ranges (2–23 black birds) and compound modifiers (Boston–New York shuttle). Em dashes set off phrases amplifying or explaining something in a sentence. Writers often put an en dash, usually with spaces around it, where they should have used an em dash. They almost never use an en dash where it is proper to do so, so I’m guessing few understand what an en dash is for.
 
My current edit reminds me to note that an em dash is used for interrupted speech in dialogue too (not an ellipsis, which is for speech trailing off and not completed for reasons other than being abruptly interrupted).
 
sr71plt said:
My current edit reminds me to note that an em dash is used for interrupted speech in dialogue too (not an ellipsis, which is for speech trailing off and not completed for reasons other than being abruptly interrupted).
Click to expand...

When I edit, I see the ellipsis used a lot in dialogue which is then interrupted. I change it to the em-dash. Well, suggest changing it.

I never realized how many grammar/punctuation rules were pretty well ingrained in me from school, or from reading other books, until I started writing here. I admit I'm always a little puzzled when people don't seem to know the basics.
 
I think they probably don't teach much of the basics of writing anymore. The SOLs are all about math and science.

What I can't understand is how writers can be so much "it's all about me" not to just be grateful there are standards to take the indecision and confusion away. At least in publishing, the standards are for the reader, not the author. And they are supposed to help the author not have to worry about too many questions of what is the best way to render something.
 
sr71plt said:
I think they probably don't teach much of the basics of writing anymore. The SOLs are all about math and science.

What I can't understand is how writers can be so much "it's all about me" not to just be grateful there are standards to take the indecision and confusion away. At least in publishing, the standards are for the reader, not the author. And they are supposed to help the author not have to worry about too many questions of what is the best way to render something.
Click to expand...

Oh I definitely run into this. Am running into it at the moment for someone, in fact. I find that some people are mad that what is isn't what they think it should be. Like my son, actually. ;) I know I'm not a pro, so I don't expect my advice to be taken blindly, but I do think I go with some common sense, plus what I've learned in the last few years, so I do know a few things.

And I think you're right about what gets taught or not. I am in a good school district, and I wonder when they will start teaching those things. My son's class had some essays on the wall a few weeks ago, and the lack of punctuation, paragraphs, etc., made me think. I know it's only fourth grade, so I don't expect them to be experts, but I do expect at some point the teachers will go over this stuff.

If not, I will.
 
sr71plt said:
You can either just pull them down from the "symbols" list or, if you have that extra keyboard section to the right, holding down control and alt on the left keyboard and the hyphen on the right keyboard will produce an em dash. Holding down the control on the left keyboard and the hyphen on the right one will produce an en dash. (This doesn't work here on the forum on postings, but if you cut and past from your computer to here, they will appear correctly.)

It's U.S. publishers more than authors who use more commas than normal writing does--to keep the road map as clear as possible for the reader. Where authors use too many commas is in using one in front of a conjunction combining and independent clause and a dependent clause. Publishers use a comma there only for two independent clauses.
Click to expand...

"When I discovered a week ago [after 25 years in Journalism] that I could make a true dash by employing the alt key with the hyphen it was truly one of the red letter days of my life."

Lynne Truss: Eats, Shoots & Leaves page 158

So I am not the only one who did not know, and I suspect a few other litsters may have made a note of this.:)

Incidentally, Ms Truss doesn't seem to take dashes and double dashes, as she calls 'em, all that seriously, em and en not getting a mention. And, just when I was beginning to sympathize with her, I read her view of the superiority of the British approach to quotation marks. Silly woman.

I also noted your comment about the dominance of maths and science in education. The last time I formally studied English was more than 35 years ago when I took 'O' level English aged 15 at high school in England. Most of my contemporaries were 16. For the next two years before going to Uni. my 'A' level studies consisted only of Pure Maths, Applied Maths, Physics and Chemistry.
 
RejectReality said:
No spaces surrounding em dashes.

It just looks strange to me, and worse still, rendering it in my software of choice by typing two hyphens is problematic without the spaces.

I've forced myself to eliminate the space when used for cut-off speech, but otherwise, I refuse to conform.

Thankfully, I'm only writing for sites that don't seem to care, so I don't have to.
Click to expand...
Now where did I hear that before? ;)

sr71plt said:
I think they probably don't teach much of the basics of writing anymore. The SOLs are all about math and science.

What I can't understand is how writers can be so much "it's all about me" not to just be grateful there are standards to take the indecision and confusion away. At least in publishing, the standards are for the reader, not the author. And they are supposed to help the author not have to worry about too many questions of what is the best way to render something.
Click to expand...

I'm grateful for those standards. I admit to knowing nothing about writing when I started but learning the standards made sense. That knowledge gave me more time to focus on improving other aspects of my writing.
 
I thought of creating a thread for this, but thought maybe this thread would do. Frequently, I have trouble in MS Word with the spell checker. It's as if it doesn't recognize U.S. spelling. Then, what it recognized or corrected one time, is completely different other times. The language settings are U.S. and I can't figure out what the problem is. Is a screwed up spell checker the norm for MS Word?

I really had a problem today because one of the authors I edit for uses two other languages in dialogue. (Not a lot though). Part way through spell checking, the spell checker started checking for words in Spanish. I couldn't change the language from the Office button. It was weird.

PS I think I've figured out the problem. I made a few adjustments in the language settings, added some languages I didn't have for some reason, and remembered there's a way to spell check the doc again that clears the previous spell checking data.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

MarieWriter
a tip or two for self editing.
2
Replies
36
Views
2K
ColinPiper
ColinPiper
HeyAll
Amazon Writers Caught Using AI
Replies
19
Views
851
TinaCole
TinaCole
AG31
A thread for examples of writing that was rejected for being generated by AI.
3 4 5
Replies
122
Views
5K
SkyBubble
SkyBubble
Djmac1031
  • Locked
Individual Style VS Perfect Edits & the problem of AI.
3 4 5
Replies
115
Views
5K
SimonDoom
SimonDoom
Thanatos_X13
Another AI Rejection Post (5/30 Update)
2 3 4
Replies
86
Views
5K
Kroxzy
K
Back
Top