Individual Style VS Perfect Edits & the problem of AI.

[Comshaw]

I want to start by saying this is not an attack on anyone, merely an observation and some general thoughts.

@AwkwardMD and @Omenainen recently reviewed @EmilyMiller ‘s story A Hard Day's Night, and one if their major criticisms was sentence structure; specifically starting sentences with And or But, the differences between dependent and independent clauses, etc.

It's no secret Emily and I have formed a friendship, and as such, I proofread her stories all the time. So I suppose one could possibly blame ME for not pointing those kinds of things out to her.

But the fact is, I personally am less concerned with “Perfect Grammar” or “Prefect Structure” and more into the individual voice and style of the author.

I see the way Emily writes as HER voice, HER style. It may nor be technically perfect by textbook standards, but it works for her.

I have my own individual style and I'm well aware I probably don't obey every textbook “rule” on writing.

Someone here recently made a joke about how every sentence I write is an individual paragraph and I had to laugh because yeah, I tend to do that. (And for the record, the joke didn't offend me)

Now, the reason I bring all that up is this: Almost every day now we're getting a new thread or comment about how someone has had their story rejected because its suspected of being written by AI.

Many have theorized that using apps like ChatGPT to edit stories is triggering some auto-bot review program trained to recognize AI.

So authors with good intent to write an honest story but use a program to edit their story to be more grammatically correct now run the risk of having the story rejected because it's so “perfect” the screening program mistakes it for AI.

So what's an amateur writer to do?

All I can do is offer my own personal feelings on it all. Yours may differ. And that's okay.

This is a site for AMATEUR writers. As such, most of us here are, well...fucking amateurs.

So maybe cut us a little slack, ya know? Maybe we write broken sentences. Maybe we fuck up and switch between past and present tense.

God forbid we use a comma instead of a semicolon or vice versa, right?

Me? I'd rather read an amateur author with a unique voice and style who may botch some technical stuff but still manage to tell an entertaining tale then some perfectly polished thing with all the heart, soul and individuality of it drained away by “PERFECT” editing.

We're all different, unique individuals. And I think we should be allowed to write like it.

How boring would it be if all our stories were so perfectly well edited that they all sounded exactly the same?

Again, these are MY thoughts, and in no way meant to do anything more than inspire discussion.

Not accusations. Not arguments. I'm not out to get anyone nor here to defend anything.

[fulminate]

Back to the OP's original post:
As a sausage-fingered, two-fingered typist, I use Grammerly for two things, spell checking and punctuation mistakes. I get all kinda' alerts admonishing me that "this needs to be clearer" or some such wanting me to change how I say things. 98% of the time I ignore them. If I took every alert or every suggestion from the program it would change how I want my words to impact the reader.

We are amateurs and we do make mistakes. Because of that status we do not have the advantage professional writers do, a gaggle of editors to go over our work multiple times to find and correct mistakes. As a prolific reader I can attest that even then, mistakes are made by even the most famous and prolific of the wordsmiths.

As authors, the one thing we CAN NOT allow is the mushing of our distinctive voice into a nice little acceptably sterile monotone because that is what the "experts" say should be. And it is also what an AI would do, a story absolutely perfect in every respect, except it reads like a flat, stale beer tastes.

Learn the mechanics of the language. Without that we have no defining outline in which to work. Although I shudder at destroying any book, if you have a book on style my advice is to burn it. And then develop your own.

As amatuers we have the freedom to do it as we please. In that respect I'm of a mind with SamualX, You don't like the way I write? Cool, go read someone else's work and leave mine be.

And I start sentences with an and or but all the time.

[/fulminate]



Comshaw

 

[mirafrida]

The older i get the more i appreciate effective authorial rulebreakers. It's a fine line of course - ignorance of convention and random carelessness is not helpful. But i think the most interesting writers are driven by consideration of overall artistic effect, and will in no way feel bound by narrow mechanical constraints when they are at odds with that larger goal.

 

[Omenainen]

I’m often late for these threads because of time zones.

My take is that if you can’t be bothered to learn your craft then what are you even doing? As has been pointed out, writing badly has the potential to get in the way of your story, writing well doesn’t. Why wouldn’t you choose the latter?

My second story got rejected for run-on sentences and bad dialogue punctuation. So, I learned to punctuate dialogue correctly and format my sentences better. This has benefited me ever since. Editing is a little tedious, but once you know the rules you can write more correctly from the get-go and have less to edit later. I didn’t use to think this is controversial.

So what's an amateur writer to do?

Learn to write. If your preferred art form is writing, there’s no way around this.

When I was a kid, I made up my own alphabet so that I could write my diary and nobody would be able to read it. It was without a doubt the most unique writing style I’m ever going to use. As a pizza delivery method that would be like crawling over broken glass towards a destination that’s not even on the same continent.

 

[dmallord]

I have, on many occasions over the years, used pizza delivery as a metaphor for SPAG. [Note: you should define this term and refer to the acronym later if you want. I don't know what it is.]

On many occasions over the years, I have used pizza delivery as a metaphor for SPAG. [Grammarly Pro]

Your story is pizza. The story is what matters most. The technical writing level is merely a delivery mechanism for your story. It is possible for a pizza delivery vehicle to add some exhaust fume flavoring to a story and ruin it, or break down and the pizza arrives cold, but the most you can ever get out of improving your writing on a technical level is to have it not be a factor. [Your illustration has too much dough; get to the point. Remember, the goal is to inform, not puff it up. Nothing of value added here.]

A twenty year old twenty-year-old Honda Accord that runs perfectly delivers pizza that tastes the same as pizza delivered by a Lamborghini.

"Good enough" should always be the aim. Nobody benefits from perfectly worded pizza. [Ref. 1st line subject.]

Dmallord's thoughts on this reply. It is a good one that could use a bit of polish - it needed a bit more aim.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Let's analyze this

The technical writing level is merely a delivery mechanism for your story

If I am delivered a pizza (story) that is cold, inconsistent, and messy; with half the ingredients sitting on the bottom of the box rather than on the crust, then the delivery has failed.

If you are the only one intended to eat the pizza, deliver it however you want. Otherwise, show some respect and consideration for those you intend to share it with or consider keeping your story to yourself.

The writer, whether amateur or professional, is the one serving up their "pizza". They have responsibility for a successful delivery of their product. We can define successful however you want, but for me, that includes seeing a noticeable effort put into delivering something that I find appetizing. It doesn't have to be perfect, but the effort should be obvious to me.

 

[Devinter]

We can define successful however you want, but for me, that includes seeing a noticeable effort put into delivering something that I find appetizing.

See, that's the problem with your observation. You cannot logically define someone else's success by how appealing YOU find a story. You are but one opinion in a vast sea of readers. What if everyone likes the story except you? Is it then still unsuccessful?

I'm assuming that everyone that uploads a story here must like their own creation. Why else would they share it with the world? So they find it appetizing. And if they do, then likely a bunch of other people do as well. That should count for something. Sure, some tales might appeal to 99% of readers whilst others only appeal to 20% or something, but as long as those 20% are happy and love the work, then how could you claim it's not successful? That would mean every piece of work with a 'cult following' wouldn't be considered a success.

 

[MrPixel]

Dmallord's thoughts on this reply. It is a good one that could use a bit of polish - it needed a bit more aim.

DM? SPAG: Spelling, punctuation and grammar.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

See, that's the problem with your observation. You cannot logically define someone else's success by how appealing YOU find a story. You are but one opinion in a vast sea of readers. What if everyone likes the story except you? Is it then still unsuccessful?

I'm assuming that everyone that uploads a story here must like their own creation. Why else would they share it with the world? So they find it appetizing. And if they do, then likely a bunch of other people do as well. That should count for something. Sure, some tales might appeal to 99% of readers whilst others only appeal to 20% or something, but as long as those 20% are happy and love the work, then how could you claim it's not successful? That would mean every piece of work with a 'cult following' wouldn't be considered a success.

You're absolutely right, which is why the pronoun "I" was selected. It is how I view successful delivery, but I don't believe I am a rarity. Based upon the comments that I see on too many stories on this site by other readers, or by writers posting about why their stories have been rejected, my view of successful is shared by the masses and not a "cult following".

This is further evidenced by the expectations of mainstream publishing, or even sites like Smashwords of D2D where minimum standards for SPaG are common.

I do not believe a reader comes to Literotica the first time expecting quality prose such as they would find in a library or bookstore. If they decide to tolerate barely digestible stories and accept the "delivery" as-is, then that is a choice they willingly make in order to get whatever satisfaction they might be seeking. I just don't buy into the premise that someone lacking in the technical skills to deliver a higher-quality (not perfect) story shouldn't be encouraged to do so.

Don't aim for "perfect", aim for "better". The effort is what counts, and it is what will be obvious.

 

[StillStunned]

Stepping away from the pizza analogy (and it's just an analogy, don't overthink it)...

We all write. We all have a style, whether that's a deliberate choice or "just how I write". If you're happy with what you're writing, and you have readers who like what you're doing, then you have no reason to change, no matter what shortcomings others might identify.

But we can all grow. In fact, I think that if we don't at least attempt to grow - improve our grammar and vocabulary, try different styles, work on our imagery - we risk becoming complacent and stale. There's a wealth of experience and skill here on Lit that's mostly offered up for free, whether in the form of reviews, beta reading, editing or just other writers' stories.

I think we'd all be foolish not to make use of that and give our writerly muscles a workout.

 

[Omenainen]

See, that's the problem with your observation. You cannot logically define someone else's success by how appealing YOU find a story. You are but one opinion in a vast sea of readers. What if everyone likes the story except you? Is it then still unsuccessful?

If your delivery is so slow that people cancel the order, or don’t make the order based on your bad deliveries in the past, then that’s a missed opportunity. Your pizza might be the best thing they ever tasted but they give up before getting that far. There’s a lot of pizzas out there to choose from.

I'm assuming that everyone that uploads a story here must like their own creation. Why else would they share it with the world? So they find it appetizing. And if they do, then likely a bunch of other people do as well. That should count for something. Sure, some tales might appeal to 99% of readers whilst others only appeal to 20% or something, but as long as those 20% are happy and love the work, then how could you claim it's not successful? That would mean every piece of work with a 'cult following' wouldn't be considered a success.

My bet is that the 20% would not be any less happy if the story was written better.

There’s some kind of weird disconnect in thinking that improving the technical delivery would somehow diminish the story or storytelling. Why would that be? How would that even work?

 

[AlinaX]

Gosh, y'all are weird.

Spelling: Sure people make mistakes, whether typos or genuine errors. Even I make mistakes. Readers will in general forgive a few mistakes, even many mistakes, but the more mistakes there are, the more the reader is distracted from the story by the words themselves - especially if the error changes the meaning from what is intended. So, yes, spelling is important, which is why we are always encouraging authors to find beta readers.

Punctuation: Punctuation is used for pacing and clarity of meaning, and while there is some flexibility in how it is used (we could, for example, argue over the use of the Oxford comma; or we could, even, argue over whether the closing parenthesis should be before the period - assuming the sentence ends within), if it used properly, the reader shouldn't even notice. As soon as the reader starts puzzling over the intended meanings of sentences, they are distracted from the story.

Grammar: Well, whatever. But the point made in both preceding paragraphs, and now here too, is: Don't distract the reader from the story!

 

[Devinter]

You're absolutely right, which is why the pronoun "I" was selected. It is how I view successful delivery, but I don't believe I am a rarity. Based upon the comments that I see on too many stories on this site by other readers, or by writers posting about why their stories have been rejected, my view of successful is shared by the masses and not a "cult following".

This is further evidenced by the expectations of mainstream publishing, or even sites like Smashwords of D2D where minimum standards for SPaG are common.

But mainstream publishing usually means 'playing it safe' and not pushing the boundaries. Some of the most impressive pieces of creativity I've witnessed have gone completely outside of the box - whether in writing, movies, or classical art.

Don't aim for "perfect", aim for "better". The effort is what counts, and it is what will be obvious.

I do agree with this. I mean, there's no reason to write poorly for no reason, obviously. But if you, yourself, think that writing it differently is in some way superior for the story - and thus not poorly to you, subjectively - then I would recommend sticking with that approach.

My bet is that the 20% would not be any less happy if the story was written better.

There’s some kind of weird disconnect in thinking that improving the technical delivery would somehow diminish the story or storytelling. Why would that be? How would that even work?

Yes and no. When it comes purely to using correct grammar, and adding spaces, punctuation and capital letters in the correct spots, then I agree fully - because changing that up doesn't add anything to the story, and I wouldn't call that a 'stylistic choice' really. However, I find that if everyone aims for 'perfect prose', you'll see a lot more similarity between stories.

I made a post earlier in this thread where I mentioned that I love adding extra adverbs. Even some unnecessary filler words. I like this in my own stories, and I like them in other people's stories too - but generally speaking, they aren't very popular among authors or readers. So that's a preference and stylistic choice rather than being correct or incorrect. And I would argue that changing it isn't necessarily improving the technical delivery. It might make you sound more professional, but professional isn't always the sexiest option, and even that is subjective.

Same goes for structure and sentence length. Some people like everything cut short, almost surgically so, so that when something happens, it really pops. Others, like myself, like unnecessary descriptions in certain aspects of storytelling. Especially when it comes to people's emotions. Go on and on about it, and I find myself connecting with the characters more. It speaks to my empathic side.

Then there's the matter of REALISM. This is also something an author needs to adapt their style towards. Do you add that extra step of people cleaning themselves out and reaching for the lube before anal sex in every story, or do you skip it to get straight to the action that gets people hot and bothered? I've tried both approaches and I think each have merit, but I would find it dull to write such a scene each and every time, doing anal scenes often. Too much of the same thing for me as an author. And although this isn't truly a 'technical delivery' aspect exactly, it certainly does fall under the umbrella of what is a "perfect edit". I've edited out such parts of my stories many times to improve pace and keep things more exciting and - in my opinion - more erotic.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Yes and no. When it comes purely to using correct grammar, and adding spaces, punctuation and capital letters in the correct spots, then I agree fully - because changing that up doesn't add anything to the story, and I wouldn't call that a 'stylistic choice' really.

Huh? Of course it makes a difference. If a writer manages the basics competently, their story has an immediate advantage, because the technique becomes invisible but the story itself shines.

If the basics are diabolical, the story-telling is dead in the water, no matter how good the premise of the story.

However, I find that if everyone aims for 'perfect prose', you'll see a lot more similarity between stories.

Again, huh? That doesn't follow either. I'd argue the complete opposite. If you get a bunch of writers who have the fundamentals nailed, I reckon it's far more likely to see vast differences in they're style and story-telling. They're going to be less alike, not similar. You see that here - there's a fair spread of very good writers floating around the AH, and the only thing in common between their content and style is that they are so very different.

It's when the stories are less capably written that you see similarities - the same tropes, the same stories, the same cliches, the same settings.

"When I got home from summer break, blah blah blah," and a thousand words of irrelevant exposition follows. We've all seen that stuff.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

But mainstream publishing usually means 'playing it safe' and not pushing the boundaries. Some of the most impressive pieces of creativity I've witnessed have gone completely outside of the box - whether in writing, movies, or classical art.


I do agree with this. I mean, there's no reason to write poorly for no reason, obviously. But if you, yourself, think that writing it differently is in some way superior for the story - and thus not poorly to you, subjectively - then I would recommend sticking with that approach.


Yes and no. When it comes purely to using correct grammar, and adding spaces, punctuation and capital letters in the correct spots, then I agree fully - because changing that up doesn't add anything to the story, and I wouldn't call that a 'stylistic choice' really. However, I find that if everyone aims for 'perfect prose', you'll see a lot more similarity between stories.

I made a post earlier in this thread where I mentioned that I love adding extra adverbs. Even some unnecessary filler words. I like this in my own stories, and I like them in other people's stories too - but generally speaking, they aren't very popular among authors or readers. So that's a preference and stylistic choice rather than being correct or incorrect. And I would argue that changing it isn't necessarily improving the technical delivery. It might make you sound more professional, but professional isn't always the sexiest option, and even that is subjective.

Same goes for structure and sentence length. Some people like everything cut short, almost surgically so, so that when something happens, it really pops. Others, like myself, like unnecessary descriptions in certain aspects of storytelling. Especially when it comes to people's emotions. Go on and on about it, and I find myself connecting with the characters more. It speaks to my empathic side.

Then there's the matter of REALISM. This is also something an author needs to adapt their style towards. Do you add that extra step of people cleaning themselves out and reaching for the lube before anal sex in every story, or do you skip it to get straight to the action that gets people hot and bothered? I've tried both approaches and I think each have merit, but I would find it dull to write such a scene each and every time, doing anal scenes often. Too much of the same thing for me as an author. And although this isn't truly a 'technical delivery' aspect exactly, it certainly does fall under the umbrella of what is a "perfect edit". I've edited out such parts of my stories many times to improve pace and keep things more exciting and - in my opinion - more erotic.

As Simon stated, knowing the conventions and deviating from them are one thing. Ignoring the conventions out of either ignorance of them, stubbornness, or blatant laziness is something all together different.

The technical mechanics of literature do not have to be sacrificed for the sake of a writer's individual style. In fact, they exist in support of it. Stories such as Forrest Gump are perfect examples of this. The classic song my Jim Stafford, "My Girl Bill" is frequently used to illustrate the importance of even the simplest comma.

 

[Devinter]

Huh? Of course it makes a difference. If a writer manages the basics competently, their story has an immediate advantage, because the technique becomes invisible but the story itself shines.

If the basics are diabolical, the story-telling is dead in the water, no matter how good the premise of the story.

I think you read what I wrote incorrectly, and I am not sure if it was because of my stylistic choice. Yes, it makes a difference.

It's when the stories are less capably written that you see similarities - the same tropes, the same stories, the same cliches, the same settings.

This has nothing to do with story edits and writing style. That's about creativity. How would your grammar and such affect tropes, clichés and settings? You could be awful at writing but come up with the craziest of ideas.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Dmallord's thoughts on this reply. It is a good one that could use a bit of polish - it needed a bit more aim.

Okay

 

[dmallord]

Okay

You are welcome. You can be nice.

Long ago, I told you and your friend that you were far too rough on authors. Now look at what you have done. One day, you might get over yourself and see the destruction in your paths. Let's start today.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I think you read what I wrote incorrectly, and I am not sure if it was because of my stylistic choice. Yes, it makes a difference.

This has nothing to do with story edits and writing style. That's about creativity. How would your grammar and such affect tropes, clichés and settings? You could be awful at writing but come up with the craziest of ideas.

My point is that the less accomplished authors are more often just starting out, and haven't developed their own style and story-telling identity yet, let alone their technical chops. As evidenced by the vast quantities of very similar stories in the most popular categories, where newer writers don't have many stories on their list.

It's when an author has nailed down the fundamental technical skills, and knows how to use them, that you see authors stretching their legs and writing more ambitious stories.

 

[SimonDoom]

This has nothing to do with story edits and writing style. That's about creativity. How would your grammar and such affect tropes, clichés and settings? You could be awful at writing but come up with the craziest of ideas.

If you are awful at writing you won't do as good a job turning your ideas into good stories. It's as simple as that. Understanding basic writing conventions will HELP you, in every way, realize your creative and artistic ambitions.

 

[onehitwanda]

Imagination is the paint, the rules are the canvas. You are likely to need both - but it's a general rule, not an axiom. If you tell every aspiring artist that they need a canvas, nobody will ever paint murals.

 

[StillStunned]

Or use bodypaint.

 

[onehitwanda]

Or use bodypaint.

or experiment with graffiti or airbrushes.

 

[PandorasBachs]

What the hell does the Submarine Parachute Assistance Group of the British Royal Navy have to do with writing smut?

 

[Bramblethorn]

You are welcome. You can be nice.

Long ago, I told you and your friend that you were far too rough on authors. Now look at what you have done. One day, you might get over yourself and see the destruction in your paths. Let's start today.

A man walks into a restaurant. He tells the staff "I'm allergic to seafood, so please don't give me any seafood." They say "okay", but they serve him a dish with crab meat in it. He gets violently ill, because he's allergic to seafood. His friend drops by to tell the staff "Now look at what you have done. Don't you think it's time you stopped serving seafood?"

A man walks into Harry's House of Seafood ("Serving Seafood Since Long Ago"). He tells the staff "I'd like some of your seafood!" They serve him a dish with crab meat in it. He gets violently ill, because he's allergic to seafood. His friend tells the staff "Now look at what you have done. Don't you think it's time you stopped serving seafood?"

A man who's not allergic to seafood walks into Harry's House of Seafood and tells the staff "I'd like some of your seafood!" They tell him "Sorry, we gave up serving seafood after we saw the destruction in our paths. How about a garden salad?"

 

[PandorasBachs]

These threads have a way of evolving to the point that it seems you have to make a choice between the grammar Nazi "you must step in line" point of view and the free-wheeling "don't tell me what to do" point of view. I think it's a false choice.

Completely unrelated to this discussion, my favorite message board user name I've ever seen was GrammarJew123.