Individual Style VS Perfect Edits & the problem of AI.

[Djmac1031]

I want to start by saying this is not an attack on anyone, merely an observation and some general thoughts.

@AwkwardMD and @Omenainen recently reviewed @EmilyMiller ‘s story A Hard Day's Night, and one if their major criticisms was sentence structure; specifically starting sentences with And or But, the differences between dependent and independent clauses, etc.

It's no secret Emily and I have formed a friendship, and as such, I proofread her stories all the time. So I suppose one could possibly blame ME for not pointing those kinds of things out to her.

But the fact is, I personally am less concerned with “Perfect Grammar” or “Prefect Structure” and more into the individual voice and style of the author.

I see the way Emily writes as HER voice, HER style. It may nor be technically perfect by textbook standards, but it works for her.

I have my own individual style and I'm well aware I probably don't obey every textbook “rule” on writing.

Someone here recently made a joke about how every sentence I write is an individual paragraph and I had to laugh because yeah, I tend to do that. (And for the record, the joke didn't offend me)

Now, the reason I bring all that up is this: Almost every day now we're getting a new thread or comment about how someone has had their story rejected because its suspected of being written by AI.

Many have theorized that using apps like ChatGPT to edit stories is triggering some auto-bot review program trained to recognize AI.

So authors with good intent to write an honest story but use a program to edit their story to be more grammatically correct now run the risk of having the story rejected because it's so “perfect” the screening program mistakes it for AI.

So what's an amateur writer to do?

All I can do is offer my own personal feelings on it all. Yours may differ. And that's okay.

This is a site for AMATEUR writers. As such, most of us here are, well...fucking amateurs.

So maybe cut us a little slack, ya know? Maybe we write broken sentences. Maybe we fuck up and switch between past and present tense.

God forbid we use a comma instead of a semicolon or vice versa, right?

Me? I'd rather read an amateur author with a unique voice and style who may botch some technical stuff but still manage to tell an entertaining tale then some perfectly polished thing with all the heart, soul and individuality of it drained away by “PERFECT” editing.

We're all different, unique individuals. And I think we should be allowed to write like it.

How boring would it be if all our stories were so perfectly well edited that they all sounded exactly the same?

Again, these are MY thoughts, and in no way meant to do anything more than inspire discussion.

Not accusations. Not arguments. I'm not out to get anyone nor here to defend anything.

 

[SimonDoom]

@Djmac1031, I see your point, but on the other hand, if someone actively solicits my feedback on a story, I'm going to give my honest feedback, and from Day 1 I've been clear that as a reader I personally place a lot of value on good grammar, punctuation, and spelling, and consistency in things like tense and point of view. If it doesn't meet certain minimal standards, I can't enjoy the story. Anybody who asks me for feedback knows what they're going to get, and I think that's true if you ask AwkwardMD or Omenainen for feedback as well.

I strongly believe that criticism should be made as constructively as possible--so it's something that the critiqued author actually can use in the future, as opposed to something that's just going to discourage them and make them feel bad. But authors need to have a thick enough skin to take valid criticism, especially if they ask for it.

Good editing, if it's really good editing, does not make all stories sound the same. If it's done right it makes the author being edited reach their potential more effectively.

 

[Djmac1031]

But authors need to have a thick enough skin to take valid criticism, especially if they ask for it.

@SimonDoom

I honestly didn't bring up this topic to get into a debate about criticism or how we handle it.

I really REALLY don't wanna go down that path thanks.

 

[Priscilla_June]

I've been thinking about AI and style as well and I think you are right. I for one tend to use a lot of stylistic dialog, meaning that write out not only the words a character says but how they say them. And often I even purposefully write the characters to say things in less than grammatical ways (because who talks perfect).

An example of this from my latest Seed of the Void chapter:

“Go doooowwwnnn to that un’ fooooork deeeerrrr. Bounce leeeeft and it’ll be ri’ down to ye left.”

I feel like the AI blockers look at that and say “no way that shit is written by AI”

 

[AwkwardMD]

I have, on many occasions over the years, used pizza delivery as a metaphor for SPAG.

Your story is pizza. The story is what matters most. The technical writing level is merely a delivery mechanism for your story. It is possible for a pizza delivery vehicle to add some exhaust fume flavoring to a story and ruin it, or break down and the pizza arrives cold, but the most you can ever get out of improving your writing on a technical level is to have it not be a factor.

A twenty year old Honda Accord that runs perfectly delivers pizza that tastes the same as pizza delivered by a Lamborghini.

"Good enough" should always the aim. Nobody benefits from perfect.

 

[StillStunned]

There are degrees, I think. The story is what matters, of course, but the medium shouldn't distract the attention. It's like watching a movie with special effects. If they're good, you barely notice them because you're caught up in the movie's story. If they're bad, they can pull you right out of the experience.

As writers, I think what we should always aim for is to make the language serve the story.

 

[Bamagan]

The combination of the reference to SPAG and the naming conventions conversation the other day makes me want to create 'SPAG Hetty,' an extremely particular language teacher whose antiquated name is no doubt partly responsible for her tying up her naughty students and whipping them with wet noodles.

 

[Djmac1031]

Your story is pizza. The story is what matters most. The technical writing level is merely a delivery mechanism for your story

I like this analogy.

Most of us can agree that while we all probably have vastly different ideas on what makes a pizza great, that it starts with the basic ingredients. You can't just pour ketchup on a slice of toast, melt some cheese and call it a pizza.

From there we can debate toppings and baking methods all day.

It's not a perfect analogy of course. I'm more agreeable to reading a less than perfect story than eating a shitty pizza.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Adhering to basic grammar and punctuation is the fundamental building block upon which your own style sits. Get those elements right, and the discussion can then be about your style; get those elements wrong, and the discussion is all about grammar.

Good editing is the same - edit properly and thoroughly and no-one notices.

Striving for "perfection" (whatever that means) is beyond the beck and call of us amateurs, because we don't have squads of editors. But you can still get high quality copy if you get the basics right - the bar is as high as you set it.

 

[yowser]

Writers in general, and here in particular, can have multiple goals and purposes. Common to all is the telling of a story. And you cannot do that justice without paying at least some attention to the reader. (I do not buy the 'I only write for myself' claim, if that truly was the only motivation, there is no need to publish here, or anywhere.)

The grammar/editing thing comes in strongly when as a writer you now consider the reader. What can you do to make your story shine through to the reader's mind? Good editing and attention to detail eliminates as many barriers to the reader's comprehension/enjoyment as possible. PERFECT editing, as you put it, will never interfere with the writer's voice, story, or what they have to say.

Writing's a craft, this is amateur for the most part, and there is no reason why writers shouldn't take a little care in improving their craft. Everything - the story, the reader experience, the quality - improves with effort in that direction.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I like this analogy.

Most of us can agree that while we all probably have vastly different ideas on what makes a pizza great, that it starts with the basic ingredients. You can't just pour ketchup on a slice of toast, melt some cheese and call it a pizza.

From there we can debate toppings and baking methods all day.

It's not a perfect analogy of course. I'm more agreeable to reading a less than perfect story than eating a shitty pizza.

In this metaphor, your pizza is a known quantity. You aren't the buyer, you are the seller. Your pizza tastes like <insert flavor>, and that is what your customers want. As the seller, it is within your power to at least have a say in which drivers (and their vehicles) are handling your pizza.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

What the fuck is SPAG?
You nerds and your abbreviations! I come from a different country and culture and I often find myself wondering when one of you uses some unordinary abbreviation, and Google can't help every time.
Be more inclusive!

 

[Djmac1031]

I think the other problem we run into here is, of course, finding editors.

Some of us do manage to find them. A friend we chat with regularly perhaps. Or maybe we just got lucky and someone answered our online request.

Problem with that is; most of those trying to help are still amateurs.

Back to myself as an example. Yes, I've helped people by proofreading their stories. But I'm certainly no expert at it. While trying my best to catch what they miss, I can of course still miss things.

And while I edit my stories now sometimes to the point of being sick of them, mistakes still get through.

My point isn't really about honest mistakes though; the missed comma, the typo, the badly worded sentence you wish you could take back.

It was more about individual stylistic choices that yes, may clash with more traditional views on writing. Perhaps even purposely so. And that sometimes "technical proficiency" can take a backseat to stylistic choices and still make for a good story.

 

[Djmac1031]

What the fuck is SPAG?

SPAG = Spelling, Punctuation And Grammar.

 

[samhasstories]

I think a knowledge of grammar is worth pursuing if you want to write. I also think grammar's rules can be bent - even broken - once you have a grasp on them, particularly for fiction.

I'm not writing academic or legal briefs here. My stories have narrators. They're meant to have voice. I start sentences with And and But all the time. I use sentence fragments. Sometimes I eschew a comma I know is probably called for, because my sentence has a rhythm I don't want to lose. It's not because I don't know how to write a proper sentence, or use a comma. I make those choices when I think those choices improve the quality of the writing.

I think if I asked for feedback I would try to make it very clear that I'm not looking for a proofread or a grammar lesson. I'm comfortable with that stuff. I would be looking for impressions of the story itself - does it work as a story, do the characters come through, whatever other particulars I might be looking for. And if I were being asked for feedback I would want to know ahead of time what sort of feedback the writer was seeking.

Could this be a case where the reviewer and the reviewee just weren't on the same page? Were those expectations discussed?

 

[CalebZhass]

As one of the noobest of noobs when it comes to writing, I can tell you from personal (and very recent) experience, that having a personal style is only desirable so long as your style is not "rambling engineer"

I agree that it is important to have character and not fuss too much about grammar or style, but I would also much rather improve myself at every turn than stay put thinking I'm fine the way I am. It is one thing accepting my own flaws and trying to improve them and it is another expecting others to accept them and ignore them for me.

I want people to point out how shitty, obnoxious, flawed I am, as that is the feedback that I will be able to grow from.

 

[ElectricBlue]

It was more about individual stylistic choices that yes, may clash with more traditional views on writing. Perhaps even purposely so. And that sometimes "technical proficiency" can take a backseat to stylistic choices and still make for a good story.

I don't think you see that very often, though. Far more common are writers who don't adhere to "more traditional views" because they don't know what they are in the first place.

You can only be a rule breaker if you know the rules, and I'm never convinced being "non-traditional" provides a positive benefit. I've yet to see it here, and I can't think of much in the mainstream, either.

On the other hand, being capable and competent at the basics will always give your story its best shot. Your argument is sorta kinda trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

 

[Djmac1031]

I don't think you see that very often, though. Far more common are writers who don't adhere to "more traditional views" because they don't know what they are in the first place.

You can only be a rule breaker if you know the rules, and I'm never convinced being "non-traditional" provides a positive benefit. I've yet to see it here, and I can't think of much in the mainstream, either.

On the other hand, being capable and competent at the basics will always give your story its best shot. Your argument is sorta kinda trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Don't take me wrong; I'm not advocating for authors to just write whatever way they want to without any adherence to proper writing skills and just call it "my own individual style."

Because going back to an analogy brought up earlier; you can't just put ketchup and cheese on a piece of toast and call it pizza. Well, you can, but not a lot of folks will buy it.

I honestly don't really HAVE a true point other than to openly discuss the topic of technical VS style when it comes to amateur writers.

 

[Paul_Chance]

The rules of grammar matter in terms of reader comprehension.

If you're breaking the rules because you don't know them, that's one thing.

If you know them and you're breaking them to establish or cultivate your style, or for stylistic purposes with the story, that's another thing.

Both approaches have an impact on reader comprehension. The first is a broken sentence done because an author doesn't know any better or doesn't care. The second, done deliberately as a style, is an attempt by the author to create a certain mood or character. In the latter, the author is saying "accept the stylistic elements and I will pay it off with an engrossing story".

Even when you look at the famous authors that have tromped all over the rules of grammar, what you see in an internal consistency. The author's style is such that, for the duration of the tale, they create their own rules of grammar and then apply them artfully.

Learn and use the rules of grammar until you reach the point where you can deliberately change them to enhance a story.

 

[Bazzle]

I've had me or Mrs anonymous rip my stories apart in the comments section.
But they were telling the truth. I've learnt from it.
The criticism hurt.
But my stories are better for it?

 

[Devinter]

As someone who uses twice as many commas in my sentences than what is necessary, loves stacking on extra adverbs, and makes my sentences far too long by a dramatic over-use of dashes - or maybe they're called hyphens? - and knowing that all of this is quite unpopular, I have zero desire to change it. It seems to work for my readers, and it works for me.

 

[Djmac1031]

If you're breaking the rules because you don't know them, that's one thing.

If you know them and you're breaking them to establish or cultivate your style, or for stylistic purposes with the story, that's another thing.

I agree with your points. I also think, for many of us, it's a combination of the above. Sometimes we make deliberate choices, and other times, well.... we just didn't know.

 

[alohadave]

Don't take me wrong; I'm not advocating for authors to just write whatever way they want to without any adherence to proper writing skills and just call it "my own individual style."

Because going back to an analogy brought up earlier; you can't just put ketchup and cheese on a piece of toast and call it pizza. Well, you can, but not a lot of folks will buy it.

I honestly don't really HAVE a true point other than to openly discuss the topic of technical VS style when it comes to amateur writers.

You have to know what the rules are before you can break them creatively.

If you know how something works, you know when it makes sense to break a rule, or when breaking a rule will elicit a particular reaction from your readers.

If you don't know why you are breaking the rule, you should probably follow it.

 

[KeithD]

I see nothing wrong with starting a sentence with "And" or "But" in fiction. It's conversational style. (https://www.grammar-monster.com/lessons/starting_a_sentence_with_and_or_but.htm)

 

[alohadave]

Why do proofreading tools flag passive constructions? I get that active voice is preferred in journalism, business, and academic writing for clarity and directness, but does it matter in fiction?

Those tools are geared toward business and professional use, so that's what they look for.

Prose doesn't necessarily follow the same rules.