Give the authorities the finger! Write extreme porn!

My cyber colleague Auden James recently wrote a protest against the British gov's initial attempt, recently, to prosecute a Mr. Walker for publishing a story with extreme sexual violence (torture, rape, murder) against several young women. Brits subsequently dropped the charges, though asstr removed it. But Auden made the following point, reminiscent of Sade:

AJ: Vive la liberté! Write (and read) putrid stories!

No boring male-female sex stories. Instead write at least about violence, rape, pedophilia, torture, snuff, cannibalism, necrophilia, and coprophilia to ensure that we're actually reading porn and full-fledged expressions of free speech and not some love story.

Give the enemies of freedom of speech a one-finger salute!

Pornography is political. Pornography is civic duty.
It's enforcing civil rigths!
-------------

I partly agree with this (assuming it's not tongue in cheek), as applied, say, to the writings of Sade and James Joyce, in their times. Or maybe to
Burroughs or Selby in our time. But I'm not sure that Mr. Walker's mediocre, but nasty, tale--or a similar one that one of us writes-- has any effect in respect of increasing liberty.

What say you?

**[Thanks to Auden James for allowing the repost of his well-crafted and controversial piece.]

Eh, While i personally wouldnt write any of those because it grosses me out or brings back flashbacks, I think its important to protect our rights, Porn hasnt ever hurt a single person (maybe a sprained wrist lmao), Which is far less then we can say about politics and politicians.
That being said i dont think it'd really have any effect, Unless you write like the most nasty foul disgusting and yet really good story that got viral enough to get attention, And then the government went after you, Cause then you can smack their noses with the newspaper in court lol, But no i dont see any real effects.

Pure said:

My cyber colleague Auden James recently wrote a protest against the British gov's initial attempt, recently, to prosecute a Mr. Walker for publishing a story with extreme sexual violence (torture, rape, murder) against several young women. Brits subsequently dropped the charges, though asstr removed it. But Auden made the following point, reminiscent of Sade:

AJ: Vive la liberté! Write (and read) putrid stories!

No boring male-female sex stories. Instead write at least about violence, rape, pedophilia, torture, snuff, cannibalism, necrophilia, and coprophilia to ensure that we're actually reading porn and full-fledged expressions of free speech and not some love story.

Give the enemies of freedom of speech a one-finger salute!

Pornography is political. Pornography is civic duty.
It's enforcing civil rigths!
-------------

I partly agree with this (assuming it's not tongue in cheek), as applied, say, to the writings of Sade and James Joyce, in their times. Or maybe to
Burroughs or Selby in our time. But I'm not sure that Mr. Walker's mediocre, but nasty, tale--or a similar one that one of us writes-- has any effect in respect of increasing liberty.

What say you?

**[Thanks to Auden James for allowing the repost of his well-crafted and controversial piece.]

Click to expand...

Literotica allegedly won't allow anything that violent. If anyone wants to write that extreme they are going to have to go slumming and go to asstr.

Besides back in the day Desade was controversial, now all you need to do to read that vile disgusting story material is to read the news.

What's asstr? This is kinda where my story is going. I noticed that there wasn't a lot of violent stuff on Lit, but I thought it was just author's choice. I didn't know they banned it- really good to know!

to candicame and others

i didn't plan for this to be a thread explaining Literotica's policies about the 'extremes.' but Lovecraft does NOT quite have it right. all violence is NOT banned, esp. if the story is in the horror category. there are some violent tales posted at Lit. on Lit policy, see the sticky posting/thread on violence.

As far as I know Auden James from the German section, I think, he made this as an ironic statement. He isn't into violence stuff at all.

In the German section, people often discuss about censorship in their country, and while there is a consense that it is too strong in today's form, there's always a controversy if there is a need of censorship at all. The majority of people in Germany isn't that much into freedom of speech, as this includes freedom of nazi speech, too.

note to popping

for purposes of this thread, let's take AJ's statement at face value. possibly this is wrong or partly wrong, but exegesis of AJ shouldn't become the thread topic.

Trying to pass your mediocre art off as a courageous act of rebellion seems piteously self-serving to me, and the idea that grossing people out is some kind of exercise in freedom is one most of us outgrow with adolescence. There's a big difference between literature and scatology.

Shock and Grand Guignol in one form or another have been used to good effect by a lot of writers, as Pure points out (and you might add William Burroughs and Hubert Selby Jr.), but a raw pile of shit isn't art just because the shitter says it is. Offensive things are offensive usually because people just don't like them, and forcing people to accept things they just don't like seems like the very opposite of freedom to me.

Pure said:

i didn't plan for this to be a thread explaining Literotica's policies about the 'extremes.' but Lovecraft does NOT quite have it right. all violence is NOT banned, esp. if the story is in the horror category. there are some very violent tales posted at Lit. on Lit policy, see posts #12, 13, 13 in the SDC thread
on celebrity stories, http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=752440.

Click to expand...

There is allegedly no violence allowed in sex. No harm may come during sex.

Author Lindsayrae posts quite a bit in the story idea section and has said that several of her all out rape stories have been rejected because the victim did not enjoy the sex at any given point.

She also said that she has had just as many slip through., it is up to chance.


So forgive me if at 6:00am I did not specifying violence during sex and violence in general. I had a character bite part of the face off of another in Lex Talionis (and human violence not horror or non human) so I know it's allowed.

You are just being picky. Lit will not allow the level of things that asstr and other sites will allow. Or do you wish to dispute that simple statement as well?

I also want to chime in with the doc that contrived shock for the sake of shock always rings as self serving and phony. It screams "Look at me!"

And I reiterate that Desade has nothing on what you can find in the news today never mind sex sites.

lovecraft68 said:

There is allegedly no violence allowed in sex. No harm may come during sex.

Click to expand...

Who allegeds? Where? Just making it up as you go along?

I have stories here of death in sex--and they sailed right through.

De Sade may have written his books for political purposes. Sadly, the political commentary within them has been overshadowed by the conventionally shocking-- but fundamentally second-rate -- content.

I don't see that reading putrid stories is, in itself, a defense of liberty. However I certainly guard the liberty-- my liberty-- to read putrid stories.

lovecraft There is allegedly no violence allowed in sex. No harm may come during sex.

this is mostly hot air. lovey's experience is quite limited, and a less authoritative tone would be appropriate.

official rules re violence are given in the 'sticky thread' here in SDC.

there ARE some sexually violent tales at Lit, for example:

restaurant nightmare
http://www.literotica.com/s/restaurant-nightmare

I agree with the general sentiment above (assuming I've interpreted people's comments correctly).

I don't like the idea of being told what I can read or write about, and thus support the right to write "extreme" porn stories. But I can't take too seriously the idea that doing so is a brave act of rebellion that somehow preserves this right.

If you're into that kind of thing, I won't be the one to tell you that you've no right to pursue it. But neither will I be reading it. I don't mean that judgmentally. I write incest stories, and plenty of people find that just as distasteful. But even in fiction, I like to stay on this side of the consenting adults line. All the same, I do somewhat resent the implication that my lack of interest in reading or writing extreme porn somehow implies a lack of commitment to freedom.

Pure said:

My cyber colleague Auden James recently wrote a protest against the British gov's initial attempt, recently, to prosecute a Mr. Walker for publishing a story with extreme sexual violence (torture, rape, murder) against several young women. Brits subsequently dropped the charges, though asstr removed it. But Auden made the following point, reminiscent of Sade:

AJ: Vive la liberté! Write (and read) putrid stories!

No boring male-female sex stories. Instead write at least about violence, rape, pedophilia, torture, snuff, cannibalism, necrophilia, and coprophilia to ensure that we're actually reading porn and full-fledged expressions of free speech and not some love story.

Give the enemies of freedom of speech a one-finger salute!

Pornography is political. Pornography is civic duty.
It's enforcing civil rigths!
-------------

I partly agree with this (assuming it's not tongue in cheek), as applied, say, to the writings of Sade and James Joyce, in their times. Or maybe to
Burroughs or Selby in our time. But I'm not sure that Mr. Walker's mediocre, but nasty, tale--or a similar one that one of us writes-- has any effect in respect of increasing liberty.

What say you?

**[Thanks to Auden James for allowing the repost of his well-crafted and controversial piece.]

Click to expand...

I have written about rape and torture and necrophilia. Most of my stuff is about fun sex between men and women, but I do have a darker side too.

Pure said:

lovecraft There is allegedly no violence allowed in sex. No harm may come during sex.

this is mostly hot air. lovey's experience is quite limited, and a less authoritative tone would be appropriate.

there ARE sexually violent tales at Lit, for example:

restaurant nightmare
http://www.literotica.com/s/restaurant-nightmare

andrea's helper
http://www.literotica.com/s/andreas-helper

Click to expand...

My internet, cyber bullshit, everyone googles everything before they post , and is therfore an alleged expert on anything they feel like popping into a search engine, experience is limited.

If there is no harm to come during sex why are a fairly high percentage of non con stories booted? They have the rule they are inconsistent with enforcing it just as occasionally some underage things will fall through the cracks.
Unless of course Lindseyrae is simply lying as everyone here knows you could never be wrong.

Less authoritative tone? Who the hell are you supposed to be? Besides someone who thinks only their opinions on a free site are valid ones. For those two links you provided how many got the axe? You don't know. neither do I for that matter but won't pretend too.

If there is ever a stink Lit will whip the rule out and enforce it and blame all the authors for breaking the rules.

You also never answered; is Lit more limited than other sites with what they will allow? I will give you time to google an answer.

Editing this to tell you to go see post 16. I can surf the net just like the rest of you staggering intellects. Now go ahead and tell me I am misinterpreting.

sr71plt said:

Who allegeds? Where? Just making it up as you go along?

I have stories here of death in sex--and they sailed right through.

Click to expand...

Yup, I made it up and posted it under the reasons why a story could be rejected section.


Was there excessive violence, snuff, or abuse of characters in your story?

Your story was too extreme for our guidelines. These judgments are subjective, and thus we can't give an exact definition of what exactly is "too much". Certain "violence" in a BDSM situation between consenting adults may be allowed, while the same "violence" between strangers in a non-consentual situation will not. Tone and respect for characters, as well as the "violent" scene within the context of the story, are what we make our judgments upon. If your story is rejected for this, feel free to send the story back with a polite request for an explanation and we will tell you why it was rejected. If you disagree with our assessment, you are more than welcome to publish your story elsewhere rather than alter it to our guidelines. We respect your rights as authors to write on whatever you like, however you like.

The rule is there, they simply do not enforce it regularly, and honestly Pilot what you may get away with as opposed to a new or less popular author are two very different things.

Because please don't tell me that they do not have favorites here.

Any exercise of personal freedom, right, liberty etc. (1st Amendment, 2nd Amendment, life, happiness, etc.) ensures that those freedoms, rights, liberties continue to be available to be exercised.

If I exercise my right to write dirty fiction today, whether anyone reads it or not, then my right to write dirty fiction tomorrow has been preserved.

lovecraft68 said:

honestly Pilot what you may get away with as opposed to a new or less popular author are two very different things.

Because please don't tell me that they do not have favorites here.

Click to expand...

I'll drink to that.

sr71plt said:

I'll drink to that.

Click to expand...

And I'll buy you that drink if you ever come down to Providence.

But as for the rest of that post, you see the "rule" right? How old it is and whether or not they have given it up, notwithstanding it is there and I'm getting tired of the "no it's not there" crap.

They'll pull it out if someone ever wants to cause trouble for them. Damn straight they will. Otherwise whatever, my point is that Lit will not allow all that is mentioned in the opening thread here.

lovecraft68 said:

And I'll buy you that drink if you ever come down to Providence.

But as for the rest of that post, you see the "rule" right? How old it is and whether or not they have given it up, notwithstanding it is there and I'm getting tired of the "no it's not there" crap.

They'll pull it out if someone ever wants to cause trouble for them. Damn straight they will. Otherwise whatever, my point is that Lit will not allow all that is mentioned in the opening thread here.

Click to expand...

Providence is "down" from the hunt club area of Virginia? I know of a lot of snobs that would be shocked to hear that.

A lot of philosophers call the orgasm the "little death." I play with that occasionally and have no trouble with it. Also, although I don't write vampires very much, mine really know how to off a victim.

sr71plt said:

Providence is "down" from the hunt club area of Virginia? I know of a lot of snobs that would be shocked to hear that.

A lot of philosophers call the orgasm the "little death." I play with that occasionally and have no trouble with it. Also, although I don't write vampires very much, mine really know how to off a victim.

Click to expand...

"Down" is an expression "If you're ever down my way" it can also be said as "up" but I always say the other way.

Little Death? Hmmm what was that crappy 80's song "I just died in your arms tonight" still clever as you could be I think it could be seen through and they are just letting it slide. They pick and choose and not just by favorites could depend on the damn mood at the time. I put something in once by mistake (because I pasted in the wrong doc, not my edited one) and didn't catch it until someone commented on how they couldn't believe I got it through.

It never should have made it based on a couple of their rules, but it did and I certainly have no clout around here so shit just falls between the cracks.

The quoted material says that the Lit call on violence is subjective. In any event, there are plenty of places, both on and off the Internet, to post "extreme" material. asstr is just one of many. I agree that rights unexercised can be lost, so the "extremists" should certainly go ahead and protect the rights of the rest of us. And we should support free speech, whether or not we personally take it to the uttermost limits.

Reply to Lovecraft. The quoted material of Killer Muffin

lovey,

today you said a lit rule was "no harm may come during sex." (see below).
that there's no such rule was suggested by sr71, box, and me, with examples. but you don't have to believe us.
[[Added 7-31-2011: There ARE problems with extreme sexual violence and murder, of course. See the 'sticky' thread/post
on violence, here in the SDC.]]

[lovey, previously] [post #9, today 7-27 lovecraft There is allegedly no violence allowed in sex. No harm may come during sex

====

[lovey currently][to pure] If there is no harm to come during sex why are a fairly high percentage of non con stories booted? They have the rule they are inconsistent with enforcing it just as occasionally some underage things will fall through the cracks.
Unless of course Lindseyrae is simply lying as everyone here knows you could never be wrong.


This reminds me of Glenn Beck's arguments: "If the Muslims haven't taken over the US Treasury, why was Room 3449 in the Pentagon, which stored Bibles and other Christian material, recently padlocked?"


Less authoritative tone? Who the hell are you supposed to be?

when you're wrong, the authoritative tone can be embarrassing. but if it appeals to you, go for it: free speech 'n all.

-----
Let's look at a paragraph Lovey quotes without saying what it is, or who said it, etc.

[to sr71] Yup, I made it up and posted it under the reasons why a story could be rejected section.


[lovey quoting without a link or reference]
[Offered advice to those wondering why their story was rejected]
[Muffin asks:] Was there excessive violence, snuff, or abuse of characters in your story?

Your story was too extreme for our guidelines. These judgments are subjective, and thus we can't give an exact definition of what exactly is "too much". Certain "violence" in a BDSM situation between consenting adults may be allowed, while the same "violence" between strangers in a non-consensual situation will not.

====

Lovey, you're quoting a POST of about 8 years back, by Killer Muffin, then a moderator. In Editor's Forum it's kept as a sticky, since she makes many useful points and gives generally good advice. She wasn't an official spokesperson for Lit, and that her post is not a precise statement of Lit policy.

see my post #14 in the Celeb thread of SDC.

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=752440

[[Added: See the 'sticky' thread/post here in SDC for the official statements re violence.]]

That said, even if her statement exactly and correctly stated policy, it doesn't confirm your original claim. She says, in effect 'no excessive sexual violence'. You said, "no harm may come during sex."

It's true that some stories with extreme sexual violence (especially, trashy ones), submitted to Lit, will never see the light of day, here. There's that true kernel in your otherwise wildly inflated claims about "no harm" policy.

pure

lovecraft68 said:

"Down" is an expression "If you're ever down my way" it can also be said as "up" but I always say the other way.

Click to expand...

Not in Central Virginia. Here it's a direction you don't want to take.

Point 1: Saying we should all write about pedophilia and bestiality to protect our freedom of speech is like saying women should participate in a slut-walk to further the goals of feminism. If I want to protect free speech, I'll donate to the ACLU and vote for certain judges.

Put another way, if the government started cracking down on white supremacist sites on the internet, I sure as hell wouldn't start spewing vile racist garbage to prove a point about free speech. I would, however, support the right of those evil dudes to write whatever the hell they want.

Point 2: Seriously? Pedophilia and coprophilia are in the same list? Huh.

Point 3: The use of the word "down" in New England is often backwards; Maine is considered down from Boston due to the winds, which is why Maine often called "downeast." Just giving you your fun-filled fact for the evening.

ETA Point 4: I shouldn't post after drinking. I apparently slip into list-speak.