E (spill over) Tread

Poetry -Marianne Moore
I, too, dislike it.

two links on above:
http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/1488.html
http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/poets/m_r/moore/poetry.htm

This was the final version.If you notice, outside of the word I ,not one concrete word (one is non specific)

Abstract, no dance, no image no evidence of any poetic tool being used in sight, 1/8 of the words are value judgments, dislike,contempt, genuine.
Every thing that determines what is Generally Accepted Standardized Poetry (GASP!) is missing.
Something else is happening here.



This poem/quote is being used to lead off the Senna Jawa segment of the E thread, Senna himself would tell you it's not poetry.
(one of the reasons I used it, I am expecting some controversy)
Anyone what to take a crack at it, this tread is open for any spill over from the E's.

Marianne Moore
Counted syllables and swore
Her contempt, but line--
Should always keep a common time.

I generally don't like poems about poetry, maybe a line or two with poetry as a metaphor for something else. I think her poem re-inforces the often heard phrase "only poets read poetry," given the subject, even though she's railing against it.

As to accentual verse, call me old-fashioned, but I think line breaks should for the most part reflect respiration and not end in a preposition whose object pronoun begins the next line:

"I too, dislike it......
..........one discovers that there is in
it after all, a place for the genuine."

Just my 2 cents, then again I've never rubbed elbows with the likes of Marianne who might enlighten me about such nuances. Maybe someone here can; seriously.

greenmountaineer said:

I generally don't like poems about poetry, maybe a line or two with poetry as a metaphor for something else. I think her poem re-inforces the often heard phrase "only poets read poetry," given the subject, even though she's railing against it.

As to accentual verse, call me old-fashioned, but I think line breaks should for the most part reflect respiration and not end in a preposition whose object pronoun begins the next line:

"I too, dislike it......
..........one discovers that there is in
it after all, a place for the genuine."

Just my 2 cents, then again I've never rubbed elbows with the likes of Marianne who might enlighten me about such nuances. Maybe someone here can; seriously.

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It starts with the negation. A poem that states "I too, dislike it." proceeds "perfect contempt for it", tension generated by seeming paradoxe.

It is not, it is syllabic, respiration should come with the commas. Whitman wrote longer lines. I think you may be confusing this with what the beats did.

PoetGuy said:

Marianne Moore
Counted syllables and swore
Her contempt, but line--
Should always keep a common time.

Click to expand...

12:01 AM or PM?

common time
define

twelveoone said:

Poetry -Marianne Moore
I, too, dislike it.

Reading, it, however, with a perfect contempt for it, one discovers in it, after all, a place for the genuine.​

two links on above:
http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/1488.html
http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/poets/m_r/moore/poetry.htm

This was the final version.If you notice, outside of the word I ,not one concrete word (one is non specific)

Abstract, no dance, no image no evidence of any poetic tool being used in sight, 1/8 of the words are value judgments, dislike,contempt, genuine.
Every thing that determines what is Generally Accepted Standardized Poetry (GASP!) is missing.
Something else is happening here.



This poem/quote is being used to lead off the Senna Jawa segment of the E thread, Senna himself would tell you it's not poetry.
(one of the reasons I used it, I am expecting some controversy)
Anyone what to take a crack at it, this tread is open for any spill over from the E's.

Click to expand...

I am just thinking out loud. I think this qualifies as concrete in a round about fashion, in so much as it is a discussion of an object, poetry. It does lurk around the abstract more than I like and a poem like this would be a disaster in the hands of a beginner. Make me wonder whether that is the lesson in this; the more of a beginner you are, the more concrete you must stay, only the wisest poets can go abtract.

vrosej10 said:

I am just thinking out loud. I think this qualifies as concrete in a round about fashion, in so much as it is a discussion of an object, poetry. It does lurk around the abstract more than I like and a poem like this would be a disaster in the hands of a beginner. Make me wonder whether that is the lesson in this; the more of a beginner you are, the more concrete you must stay, only the wisest poets can go abtract.

Click to expand...

When was the last time, I told you I loved you. Most of what you are told as how too are assumed truisms. I even issue from time to time. And then gleefully break them. Pay closer attention to the why then the how too.
My favorite book is Dress your Poetry for Success in publication since 1500, drastically updated every 20 years.

twelveoone said:

When was the last time, I told you I loved you. Most of what you are told as how too are assumed truisms. I even issue from time to time. And then gleefully break them. Pay closer attention to the why then the how too.
My favorite book is Dress your Poetry for Success in publication since 1500, drastically updated every 20 years.

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i think beginners need rules. It helps you learn and you should gleefully fuck them off when you can fly on your own.

vrosej10 said:

i think beginners need rules. It helps you learn and you should gleefully fuck them off when you can fly on your own.

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rules -no, things that usually work -yes, things to avoid -yes,
How did you score on my Senna Jawa litmus test? I got up to 39. Most of them aren't there, but in one reading, guess what else isn't.
Ooooohhhh magic.

twelveoone said:

rules -no, things that usually work -yes, things to avoid -yes,
How did you score on my Senna Jawa litmus test? I got up to 39. Most of them aren't there, but in one reading, guess what else isn't.
Ooooohhhh magic.

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I blanked under pressure (an unfortunate problem of mine). That minature was a ripper. Good and ambiguous. Wished I'd written it. Go Senna Jawa.

vrosej10 said:

I blanked under pressure (an unfortunate problem of mine). That minature was a ripper. Good and ambiguous. Wished I'd written it. Go Senna Jawa.

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Yes, but how many did you get? If you get over 12, leave a note saying here's your dime back I got $12.01 out of it. He'll piss himself, not with laughter, but that is the nature of our non-relationship.

Reading poem "dimensions"

Here is the link:


*******************

I'll write about my poem just like I were another reader. It's not just a question of discipline. It is a realistic assumption, since the poem has already twenty one years. Is it likely that I remember my "author's thoughts"? Unlikely. And indeed, I don't.

I am not saying that I am an arbitrary, random, generic reader. But I am a reader (in the context of this post).

*******************

The first three lines:

in the hilly california
the grass grows
on the tops of buried camels​

explain, like old stories, why you have hills in California. Camels are buried, but not so deep that the terrain above them would be flat. Instead the terrain is hilly due to the camels' humps.

*******************

let's ride
the sky swings​

In California "let's ride" means let's drive (a car). But there is certain entropy in this text here, and a bit of poetic license. There is a suggestion of riding a camel. There is a strong suggestion of riding over the hills. Up and down. That's why "the sky swings". You go up, and you see the clouds and other sky features at one angle, then you go down, and the angle is different or the sky vanishes from your view all together, etc.

*******************

When the sky swings then one may feel uneasy, the whole world is unstable. The lyrical subject assures its audience that everything's alright, that s/he may even enjoy this travel, that the space (the three coordinates) is friendly:

the three coordinates are my pals​

*******************

it's the fourth one
which chokes me​

Since Galileo and Newton, the educated people are familiar with the notion of the 3-dimensional material (physical, geographic) space, completed by the fourth dimension, which is TIME. The notion of the 4-dimensional time-space became a very popular cliche once Einstein formulated his theory of Special Relativity (followed by Einstein's General Relativity). The lyrical subject states her/his fear of the passage of time, or a similar depressing feeling.

*****
*****

END of reader's comments.

*****************************************************

It's amazing that even today the great majority of people (including many physicists!!!) does not understand the simple Einstein's construction of the 4-dimensional time-space. The problem is that majority learns the Special Relativity Theory from physicists instead of paying attention to the Minkowski's presentation. One can understand the SRT only by freeing themselves from physics, and by focusing on the Minkowski's clean approach, used by all theoreticians. Get the mathematics of SRT, and physics will follow automatically, naturally.

****

In the past I have never run into a reader who would not understand that the fourth dimension is


But then, there is a huge world of potential readers out there, so what do I know?

Line 17:

to discriminate against "business documents and

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Gets this footnote:

17] "Diary of Tolstoy; Dutton, p. 84: `Where the boundary between prose and poetry lies, I shall never be able to understand. The question is raised in manuals of style, yet the answer to it lies beyond me. Poetry is verse: prose is not verse. Or else poetry is everything with the exception of business documents and school books.'" Moore's note, p. 96, refers to Leo Tolstoy's Childhood, Boyhood, and Youth, trans. C. J. Hogarth (New York: Dutton, 1912); PG 3366 .D5 St. Michael's College Library.

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It is as if the assignment read "Include at least five footnoted references and mention Tolstoy at least once."

Senna Jawa said:

Here is the link:

dimensions​

*******************

I'll write about my poem just like I were another reader.

Click to expand...

It's hard to tell where a reader ends and the critic starts. A (good critic could say something like:

Camels these days live mostly far away from California, mainly in Asia and East Africa. Also, camel-like mammals live in South America. This adds to the spatial dimension of the poem. Furthermore, "buried" associates with the past. Camels were around about 50 million years, and they were domesticated well over 4000 years ago. This adds to the time dimension. The whole 4-dimensional time-space got larger, the poem is full of fresh air. At the same time "camel" has made the texture of the poem thicker, richer.

I blame the general concept of the Liberal Arts degree. It was once a license granted to young wealthy people to prevent them from being ignorant savages once they were given control of their trust fund. Somewhere along the way it became the "to get a good job, get a good education" degree.

Liberal Arts colleges knew from the beginning they could not teach someone enough for them to be a good poet, so they settle for forcing students to learn how to talk about poets others think are good.

BRONZEAGE said:

It is as if the assignment read "Include at least five footnoted references and mention Tolstoy at least once."

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Hah! Thank you, BA.