Insider or Outsider?

FakeaSmile said:

I feel similar to May. I have in the distant past tried to post here and been ignored. And posting took a lot of courage let me tell you...being a noob and all
It has a clique feel and it can also feel intimidating when you're ignored.
I read the threads here in the BDSM but I don't post.

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hello, Smiley!

FakeaSmile said:

I feel similar to May. I have in the distant past tried to post here and been ignored. And posting took a lot of courage let me tell you...being a noob and all
It has a clique feel and it can also feel intimidating when you're ignored.
I read the threads here in the BDSM but I don't post.

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If this thread was on the Playground or How To, your response is exactly what I would post, because that has been my experience there. I have no idea why my face didn't fit, but my posts (and I'm talking about ones where I shared my personal experiences in answer to an OP question, not just word games) were ignored and leapfrogged by the regulars. So I shrugged and stopped bothering.

All I'm saying is that ignoring the new poster is not something peculiar to the bdsm board.

LallyH said:

If this thread was on the Playground or How To, your response is exactly what I would post, because that has been my experience there. I have no idea why my face didn't fit, but my posts (and I'm talking about ones where I shared my personal experiences in answer to an OP question, not just word games) were ignored and leapfrogged by the regulars. So I shrugged and stopped bothering.

All I'm saying is that ignoring the new poster is not something peculiar to the bdsm board.

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I still get ignored and skipped by 'regulars' especially the 'dogs in heat type' I don't think it's only the BDSM Board but like you it's been my experience here. I think the HT and BDSM Communities are smaller so there are less threads to post in and maybe that makes it a little more difficult. The HT Crowd have always been welcoming but some also post in the PG so it makes it a little easier for me to interact

I'm sorry you had that experience, it's extremely rude to skip and dismiss people. I always try to be friendly and welcoming to new people as I remember how long it took me to post when I first came to Lit

Rainshine said:

I have been lurking in this thread because Yankee asked me to come look at it. I'm reticent to post on its content for various reasons.

I do however want to say that Lally and MeekMe I adore you posting in the HT when I see it happen.

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FakeaSmile said:

I still get ignored and skipped by 'regulars' especially the 'dogs in heat type' I don't think it's only the BDSM Board but like you it's been my experience here. I think the HT and BDSM Communities are smaller so there are less threads to post in and maybe that makes it a little more difficult. The HT Crowd have always been welcoming but some also post in the PG so it makes it a little easier for me to interact

I'm sorry you had that experience, it's extremely rude to skip and dismiss people. I always try to be friendly and welcoming to new people as I remember how long it took me to post when I first came to Lit

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Thank you both . I never took it personally if I was ignored but it feels uncomfortable, doesn't it? It's like you're butting into a conversation between very good friends sometimes. Over here on the bdsm UK thread (although it's not very well populated at the moment) everyone new is always welcomed, but I accept that it's a chat thread, and not an area where 'serious' discussion takes place.

LallyH said:

Thank you both . I never took it personally if I was ignored but it feels uncomfortable, doesn't it? It's like you're butting into a conversation between very good friends sometimes. Over here on the bdsm UK thread (although it's not very well populated at the moment) everyone new is always welcomed, but I accept that it's a chat thread, and not an area where 'serious' discussion takes place.

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I'm glad that you've found somewhere you feel welcome. It's a place to start, yes?

Wild_Honey_66 said:

I'm glad that you've found somewhere you feel welcome. It's a place to start, yes?

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It is - Ive always been made welcome and felt at home here. And it would be great if this thread made more people feel comfortable enough to join in if that's how they feel

LallyH said:

It is - Ive always been made welcome and felt at home here. And it would be great if this thread made more people feel comfortable enough to join in if that's how they feel

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even if they're not UKers?

Wild_Honey_66 said:

even if they're not UKers?

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Oh, absolutely! We do get occasional posts on there from non-UK folk and ive been told by usa friends that they read it. Sir Winston was one of our regular visitors

LallyH said:

Oh, absolutely! We do get occasional posts on there from non-UK folk and ive been told by usa friends that they read it. Sir Winston was one of our regular visitors

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I understand he was very well thought of.

I'm going to come at this from a different perspective. Where does it say that as part of this forum or any other on Lit that I'm required to welcome newbies and include them? Or anyone, for that matter? While I wouldn't go out of my way to be purposely rude to a newbie...well I do admit to an intolerance for those that try to involve me in their relationship, without my consent...I don't see that we're required to be inclusive. Some of us might be, but why should newbies expect us to fawn all over them and make them feel comfortable? Where did we sign up for that?

Frankly the same applies to those who have been around awhile too. I don't know how many times I've posted here and had my post ignored by everyone except those I know off Lit as well. When it happens I'm sometimes surprised, because I've been here for ages, but then I recall that I read much more than I post, so I'm not a regular. I'm not offended and I don't run away because no one talked to me. If I cared enough, I'd make a point of posting more, but I don't care and so I don't.

I was an insider on the How To forum years ago. I would post a lot and made some great friendships. Newbies would sometimes say we were cliquish there. I never saw it that way. It was more like going to coffee with your friends and having someone, none of us knew, sit down at our table. To me there was a big difference between pushing someone away saying 'hey what do you think you're doing sitting at our table?' and welcoming them and initiating a conversation with them. We were there to talk with our friends not strangers. We wouldn't purposely be rude to others but we wouldn't all feel the need to be inclusive either.

It's the same here. Those that are friends and want to talk to each other should be able to do that. Sure others can join in but it's always our choice what posts we want to reply to or not. Why be surprised if you're not immediately embraced? Many newbies have successfully found themselves among the regulars...in fact every regular has at some time been a newbie.

Last I looked, starting to post on the BDSM forum does not mean one signed up to be a welcoming committee to anyone. Of course, some might take on that role, hence the sticky to introduce yourself and those that reply in the thread, but it's not a requirement for all. Nor do I think it should be. One should be civil to others. Who we choose to talk to is an individual decision.

Everyone, including newbies, has the right to expect to be treated with respect. If you're new, take some time to get to know the lay of the land. Understand the purpose of the forums and take a look at the stickies. If you don't bother to acquaint yourself with the customs of this new 'land' don't be surprised that you may not feel welcomed. The locals expect respect too and doing those things show respect. Being an insider isn't likely to happen over night. It takes some effort. It may or may not ever happen...depends on your effort and the fit. But this place has a wealth of information, knowledge and fun and you don't need to be an insider to take advantage of it. This place has the capability of showing a huge amount of caring, empathy and love. I've seen it. It's beautiful.

Madam, of course you are not required to be nice to newbies, or to welcome them, or any of those things. I certainly don't blame you or anyone else for not doing so. But the OP asked what people's thoughts were as to why there is a widespread (certainly not universal) feeling that this board is less welcoming than others. The apparently quite conscious barriers discussed so far, put up by regulars for all sorts of valid reasons, constitute in my opinion a significant part of that sense that this is a place to tread carefully. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, I see that.

Stella_Omega said:

Yes, I have seen numerous newbies turn immediately into active participants. Collar_and_cuffs, and MeekMe, despite that they might think the process took longer-- it seems to me that I, at least, found both of them immediately congenial from very early on.


*Something that I am NOT in other parts of the internet. And really the process is the same wherever you are. It's been more than two years on tumblr-- and I'm still languishing there, mostly unregarded. Them's the breaks.

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I'm congenial. \(^o^)/ I like Collar_N_Cuffs, too. (0_0) And Stella.

Seriously, I'm happy to have made friends here (and we've branched out to other places), but I'm not positive it happened over night (it's not you, it's me). I get along with lots of people here and I've also been on the receiving end of "being ignored." The thing is, I don't think I'm being ignored in those cases. I think that the post didn't warrant a response directly. Maybe it wasn't interesting enough, or didn't have new information to address. I don't feel bad about it.

Also, being completely new, I used to get flushed with a mini panic attack before I hit the submit button. I have some severe (less so now) anxiety attacks that make me a bit afraid to post sometimes. So there are times that I write out a response and then hit the back button to erase it. Later I'll go back and it's a 50/50 chance that I'll delete or submit. So, I might not be ignoring you, I may just be deciding if I've said too much or too little or if the world is going to implode if I submit that response. I have often full on had a wave of heat (not the good kind) after hitting the submit button, and have been fairly relieved to be overlooked.

BTW, tumblr is a strange place that I just haven't got a handle on. I have no idea how that thing works so I just post stuff and bumble along.

Rainshine said:

I have been lurking in this thread because Yankee asked me to come look at it. I'm reticent to post on its content for various reasons.

I do however want to say that Lally and MeekMe I adore you posting in the HT when I see it happen.

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^_^ I'm happy you feel that way. The above may explain part of my hesitance to post and also how I often feel about it. It has nothing to do with not being welcomed by anyone. I'm a strange bird.

I found it difficult to break it and feel comfortable here way back when I first joined. I had some heated discussions with some members and felt like an outsider for a while.

However, I learned ALOT. As time went on I joined Fet and became active there mostly because my Dominant prefers it there instead of here but this little corner of the BDSM world will always feel like me on-line home. I feel safe here.

I agree with wicked_woman that established members aren't required to welcome newbies.

I haven't been as active as I once was because life gets busy. I know when I do get a chance to just relax and hang out on-line I like to reconnect with friends or catch up on threads that I normally frequent. I may not have the time or energy to answer a new person's question or post a comment on a new person's thread. It isn't being rude it is a question of time management.

I do think some members go over the top with the criticism of a person's grammar or spelling. Also I like to assume that the person posting a new thread with a question is genuinely looking for answers and not just wank fodder.

So if I am ignoring anyone it is not because I am rude, I just don't have the energy to be overly welcoming at that particular time.

As I told MWY elsewhere, I rarely post here because 1) not much in the way of real world experience, and 2) a partner with no interest in kink. But I do lurk quite a bit, and was surprised to read that the BDSM forums have a reputation for being unwelcoming. To each their own, but from my perspective, it feels a lot like the HT boards (which I consider my Lit home), only with more of a kinky focus.

Genuine questions are met with honest attempts to help, while those seeking to troll, fish for wank fodder, or generally act a fool are quickly sent elsewhere. I, personally, don't see that as a bad thing. As has been pointed out upthread, there are other places for that.

wicked woman said:

Everyone, including newbies, has the right to expect to be treated with respect. If you're new, take some time to get to know the lay of the land. Understand the purpose of the forums and take a look at the stickies. If you don't bother to acquaint yourself with the customs of this new 'land' don't be surprised that you may not feel welcomed. The locals expect respect too and doing those things show respect. Being an insider isn't likely to happen over night. It takes some effort. It may or may not ever happen...depends on your effort and the fit. But this place has a wealth of information, knowledge and fun and you don't need to be an insider to take advantage of it. This place has the capability of showing a huge amount of caring, empathy and love. I've seen it. It's beautiful.

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This. 1000 times this.

I'd also like to say that while I rarely post in open forum here, over the years I have PM'd some of the BDSM regulars regarding information they've shared. All were glad to help, and I don't feel I've ever been treated negatively.

MeekMe said:

I get along with lots of people here and I've also been on the receiving end of "being ignored." The thing is, I don't think I'm being ignored in those cases. I think that the post didn't warrant a response directly. Maybe it wasn't interesting enough, or didn't have new information to address. I don't feel bad about it.

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And this. While we're speaking specifically about the BDSM boards, this sometimes happens to me on HT. Not everything I post gets a response, nor should I expect it to. Neither do I respond to everything that others write. Sometimes it's because I don't know what to say, but other times it's because what was written didn't strike a chord with me. It's the nature of the beast. It happens and I don't feel it's at all a personal slight to anyone. *shrug*

First, I'll admit that I haven't read the whole thread. Time is an issue, right now. So, what I have to say might have already been said in one way or another.

First, I want to say that in the beginning, we didn't have a cafe. There was just the talk main forum. The intent was to have a place where newbies could go for honest experienced answers to their questions. But, there was also the humorous side of a group and unfortunately, the humor was taking away from the more serious intent of the forum. That's when it was decided to create a second forum. The cafe is for the light hearted, every day communications, somewhat like you'd go to a cafe and talk about anything you wanted with friends...hence the name. That left the main talk forum for the serious questions and answers of BDSM.

It was also felt that while it might seem more serious and intimidating for a new person to post a thread in the talk forum, the incidental humor that was there before was also causing problems. Sometimes regulars would interrupt a thread with some humor and because the new posters didn't know these people, the humorous comments were sometimes taken as snarky and making fun of what they thought was a serious question. It was just regulars interrupting the thread from time to time, now considered a hijack, but the newbie didn't know this and it was causing problems.

So, when someone who is posting a serious question in the talk forum and somebody comes in and makes a humorous comment, the same thing can happen. The regulars might know it was only a lighthearted comment, but the newbie isn't sure. Look at it from their point of view. They are already nervous because they are spilling their very personal feelings out to strangers. They are unsure of how they are going to be accepted and only hope we are going to treat them with the respect they deserve. So those lighthearted posts can look very different to them.

There is a clique in this place. It's not as bad as it once was, though. I was once a new poster. I started posting in the AH, and soon migrated over here, because I felt more at home with the BDSM crowd. Now, after being here for years, I tried going back over there. It's not at all like it once was. So many new posters and the old ones have gone. I'm a newbie over there, again.

Anyway, I didn't fit in here very well, in the beginning. I had a very rough time of it for the first couple of weeks. I won't go into the crap of it, but there are a few threads still out there from years ago, if you have the desire to do the search. I don't think many, or any of those posters are still around, but some are still on Lit, just in a different area. It was very strange. Like I said, the clique was very strong back then. A few regulars could turn against you and then the whole place would join in.

But, these days, most of that is gone. I do still see it to a point when someone posts certain kinds of threads in the talk forum. We regulars get to know what kind of thread is it, when we see them. We've seen so many and they are all the same. There is only one one post count for the user and they are looking for ways to do something...ways to punish their sub or whatever. We see this as someone wanting yank fodder and tend to ignore the thread. But, some take over the thread and make it into a feeding frenzy.

In most cases, I don't see a problem with this, IF we know the person is the troll we assume them to be. But, there are times when this happens and the OP was asking a serious question. We do have some regulars who act first and think second when it comes to this kind of thing.

I think we do need to watch ourselves and make sure we know about a person before we tend to start one of those feeding frenzy things. And we should try to keep the humor out of the talk forum as much as possible. At least make sure you tell the OP you are hijacking the thread for a post or some other way of explaining your post, if you feel you really need to inject sideways humor into the forum.

One last thing. I've experienced this more than once. I have a dry sense of humor. It can sometimes seem like I'm posting something mean when I'm really looking for the joke. That can get me into trouble with others and I don't intend it to happen. I've even added it to my signature, if you have them active. And people jump to the conclusion that I was trying to be mean or whatever, without asking my intentions first.

I think we need to at least ask someone what their intentions were when they post something before jumping into any emotional posts of their own. They could easily just misunderstand that poster's intent.

We don't see facial expressions, hear the inflections of a voice or body language when we see text on this screen. Words on a page can be misunderstood very easily. Those little nuances are lost and we have to add them ourselves. If the poster is a stranger to us, we have nothing to go on, nothing to help us fill in the blanks that facial expressions, voices and body language would surely help with. We need to think first, then ask for a clarification, before we act.

I've lost friends on here, just because they thought I was being serious when I said something. And nothing I said after, NOTHING could change their mind. A few months ago, one statement I said in a PM that I thought was humorous was seen by someone like I was seriously calling them something I wasn't. I tried to explain my dry sense of humor and nothing I had said before or after gave any inclination that I thought of them that way, but that one statement was all it took. I tried to make them understand, but I finally just gave up.

So please, people...make sure, when you say something. People wonder why I post long messages. This is one reason. I want to be clear in what I say. And if someone wants a clarification, try to be as clear as possible with what you meant to say. Just keep in mind, others don't see emotions in these words we type, so they have to add emotions for themselves. That can sometimes go the wrong way.

I'm on a phone, so it's just too difficult to quote everyone...

No, we don't need to be a welcoming committee. But to see people with obvious BDSM desires or experience avoiding this forum should tell us... we don't need an UNwelcoming committee either.

People can be nervous when first posting, as mentioned. They can come across as really arrogant or stupid, when in fact they may just be feeling awkward. Second and even third chances might be in order.

Yes, both newbies and regulars deserve respect. There are ways to disagree with someone's post, or better yet, try and gain understanding of why they posted what they posted without being unnecessarily, over the top, ridiculing and nasty. If you just want to be a hard core flamer, take it somewhere else. That is not conducive to discussion.

Thank you Meeks and Stella for your comments - made me smile
Thank you DVS for your comments on humour - both your own and what the original intent of the two forums were. Anyone not around at that time wouldn't have a full grasp on that. (Ok, me. I didn't have a full grasp on that )
Thanks Lally for the invite to the UK thread, I may join you there now and then

Also, Meeks, you said this is a sad thread, but I don't think it is. We all tout communication. That's not always flowery or easy, but here it is, and I think it was high time and very necessary.

So thanks to MWY as well

bailadora said:

As I told MWY elsewhere, I rarely post here because 1) not much in the way of real world experience, and 2) a partner with no interest in kink. But I do lurk quite a bit, and was surprised to read that the BDSM forums have a reputation for being unwelcoming. To each their own, but from my perspective, it feels a lot like the HT boards (which I consider my Lit home), only with more of a kinky focus.

Genuine questions are met with honest attempts to help, while those seeking to troll, fish for wank fodder, or generally act a fool are quickly sent elsewhere. I, personally, don't see that as a bad thing. As has been pointed out upthread, there are other places for that.



This. 1000 times this.

I'd also like to say that while I rarely post in open forum here, over the years I have PM'd some of the BDSM regulars regarding information they've shared. All were glad to help, and I don't feel I've ever been treated negatively.



And this. While we're speaking specifically about the BDSM boards, this sometimes happens to me on HT. Not everything I post gets a response, nor should I expect it to. Neither do I respond to everything that others write. Sometimes it's because I don't know what to say, but other times it's because what was written didn't strike a chord with me. It's the nature of the beast. It happens and I don't feel it's at all a personal slight to anyone. *shrug*

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Yes, I think HT and this place are quite similar in many ways.

I think the fact that both boards are small does make for more of a cliquish feeling than necessary and many of the regulars have been posting together for a long time in both places.

The only thing it takes to become a regular poster in any of the boards here is posting regularly.
I know it can feel awkward when you put time into a post and noone answers, but I don't think I'm the only one who reads a lot of posts and just nods.
Sometimes it's because I don't have the time, other times because I don't really have much of a comment on it and then there are times when I intend to go back and answer but have an attack of middleage distraction.

IrisAlthea said:

I know it can feel awkward when you put time into a post and noone answers, but I don't think I'm the only one who reads a lot of posts and just nods.
Sometimes it's because I don't have the time, other times because I don't really have much of a comment on it and then there are times when I intend to go back and answer but have an attack of middleage distraction.

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If I agree with a post but have nothing further to add, other than yes you're right, I don't reply - I often feel we need a 'like' button a la Facebook for those moments.

LallyH said:

If I agree with a post but have nothing further to add, other than yes you're right, I don't reply - I often feel we need a 'like' button a la Facebook for those moments.

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Like

wicked woman said:

Like

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Heh, beat me to it.

IrisAlthea said:

Yes, I think HT and this place are quite similar in many ways.

I think the fact that both boards are small does make for more of a cliquish feeling than necessary and many of the regulars have been posting together for a long time in both places.

The only thing it takes to become a regular poster in any of the boards here is posting regularly.
I know it can feel awkward when you put time into a post and noone answers, but I don't think I'm the only one who reads a lot of posts and just nods.
Sometimes it's because I don't have the time, other times because I don't really have much of a comment on it and then there are times when I intend to go back and answer but have an attack of middleage distraction.

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*nods*

Unless I feel I have something relevant to add, or I wish to highlight something that especially resonates with me, I typically stay silent.

To your point about being a regular poster. Yes and no. JBJ, for example. He regularly posts on HT, but I seriously doubt he'd be considered an insider. He's viewed more as the resident troll.

That said, I have to wonder if what some people consider to be an unwelcoming environment has more to do with an ill fit of personalities. Each board has it's own unique flavor and I think we're drawn to those which most closely align to our own manner. The more serious tone of the HT and the BDSM forums are actually what keeps me coming back. While I can be silly, my overall demeanor tends more towards gravity, thus these boards appeal to me more than the frivolity of the PG or the free for all of the GB.

At any rate, it's a theory.

Collar_N_Cuffs said:

Also, Meeks, you said this is a sad thread, but I don't think it is. We all tout communication. That's not always flowery or easy, but here it is, and I think it was high time and very necessary.

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I believe it is a sad topic. I am saddened to learn that people think we're a cliquey bunch of curmudgeons that eat newcomers like potato chips.

I'm part of this board and those are things that I am not.

Unless you all have been lying to me. In that case, stop lying to me.

I'm reminded of the time a new woman came to the munch that I co-manage. It's always been a smallish crowd, ten people is AMAZING. And it's women only, and some of us are pretty needy and find solace in this once a month gathering and it can be hard to shut them down when they start venting about their ex husband ...or their product development woes ...
Anyway this lady messaged me later complaining that we didn't welcome her kindly enough and she felt left out. I felt bad about it, but I honestly don't know what she needed to hear, or what she expected. People would look her way toinclude her, I know that I made several of those nice social pauses that (I've been taught) invite someone into the conversation-- but she didn't respond. I asked her what we could do better next time but got no reply... Social anxiety disorder I'm guessing? Whatever it was, I'm not educated in that kind of outreach work.

so, something. I dunno.

some people are good at outreach. let them be the welcome wagon.

some people are good at something else. let them do that instead.

respect from everyone is a reasonable expectation. warm and fuzzy is not.

anybody needs a hug, i'm around.

This has been a fascinating discussion so far, and I'm gratified that so many have added their voices to it. Originally, I expected to hear from a few regulars and not much more. Instead, there have been 31 different people who have posted to this thread. About two thirds of these are members who post frequently enough in the BDSM forum that I recognize their screen names. The other third have largely wandered in from the HT and I'm pleased that so many took the time to give us their perspectives. Thank you to everyone who has posted so far. It has been a civil and vibrant discussion.

I'm especially taken by the comparisons between this forum and the How To forum, for both are places that are home to seriousness and frivolity in a good balance. Others have quite eloquently told of the reasons why this forum has a need for seriousness and I think it's important for us to bear them in mind. Personal safety is an integral part of the sexy fun times that so many of us enjoy, and there's a weighty responsibility for someone who might be perceived by a newcomer here as a wise and experienced counselor to be, indeed, a wise and experienced counselor.

That said, I think we've done a very good job of examining the whys and hows of our interactions with newcomers - or those whom we think are newcomers. If this helps us think twice before warming up our snark machines on a newcomer, all the better. I know I'm hardly immune to that temptation. Hell, I found myself doing something like that only a couple of days ago here, even after having started this thread. Shame on me.

Of all the points raised here, only one has gone unanswered so far as I can tell. Earlier, Collar_N_Cuffs brought up the issue of personal attacks. I have hesitated to bring this up because I didn't want to see this thread devolve into a defense of any particular person or any particular ill-conceived posts or threads before the good things I wanted from this thread came to be. But now I'd like to return to her point.

I've seen some ugly behavior here over the years. And I've been a willing participant in some of it, for which I carry no pride and a good deal of shame. I had a brief PM conversation with one of the HTers who had posted to this thread yesterday and I found myself saying something along these lines: "I know that incivility and cliqueishness are common at Lit and on the Web in general. But I want my home to be better than that, dammit." That's the fundamental reason I started this thread: because I want my online home to be better, dammit.