Where, exactly, is the line drawn?

I'm an author on here and I find no difficulty with the 18 rule. The line has to be drawn somewhere. If it was, for example, a 16 rule then there would be those tempted to try and bend it to 14. There are sites which allow it but Lit is not one of them and I am happy that it is so. Live with it or go elsewhere.
But it isn't only the stories. I spend some time in the chat rooms and I've been approached by people that purport to be or who want to pretend to be underage. They have been immediately reported to the chat moderators who I assume deal with them appropriately.
All power to Lit both now and in the future. Perverts can go elsewhere.

Hypoxia said:

And there IS at least one loophole: they are physically over 18 but mentally underage. I've not yet seen or written a comatose-from-14-to-18 tale but I do recall a well-received story of a 14-year-old whom Santa turns into an 18-year-old who must deal what his other, rougher personality did in his missing four years, and learn about love with his young adolescent mind.

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MarshAlien's A Stitch in Time

Valint said:

MarshAlien's A Stitch in Time

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That's it! Thanks!

How about age confusion the other way around?

Here's a situation and a true (and personal) story I would like to write:

Guy is 18. He got a girlfriend, who is a bit shy, completely plain and a bit chubby. They have sex in her room she share with her younger sister. Sister walks in on them. More than once, and act provocatively, changing in plain sight and alike. But gf seems to see nothing wrong, evidently unable to see sexual tension in context of her sister.

Sis is taller, lean and muscular and absolutely gorgeous, confident and outgoing, even laud and dominant. Guy is totally smitten by her, but heavily conflicted and suppress his attraction to the sister. Prominent between his reasons is his belief that sister should be underage.

What he doesn't know is that his girlfriend is full year older than he thinks, she skipped a year in school and hide it to not go in the reasons (she was raped), and sisters are 'Irish twins' so the younger sister is 18 already as well.

Sister's behaviour is important conflict point and reason for plot advancement. While it is possible to clear the confusion earlier than it was historically (because it wear off anyway), the initial shock is what is valuable.

Have this a chance to float? Reques a forewarning in the initial note?

LupusDei said:

How about age confusion the other way around?

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Have this a chance to float? Reques a forewarning in the initial note?

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Only Laurel can answer that.

LupusDei said:

How about age confusion the other way around?

What he doesn't know is that his girlfriend is full year older than he thinks, she skipped a year in school and hide it to not go in the reasons..., and sisters are 'Irish twins' so the younger sister is 18 already as well.

Have this a chance to float? Reques a forewarning in the initial note?

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There have been a few movies and TV shows including 21 Jump Street (that introduced Holly Robinson and Johnny Depp) that used the premise of young looking 20-somethings going back to high school as 16-17s for different reasons.

The film "Peggy Sue Got Married' seems to deal with the subject more directly.

My personal view is that LupusDei's proposed story would NOT be accepted.

Although the two women ARE over 18, they don't appear to be. That breaks the guidelines because the plot depends on him thinking that one sister is underage and sexual activity takes place in her presence.

It sails close to the wind. I would rewrite it so the confusion is about whether the sisters are older than him (and he is over 18).

oggbashan said:

My personal view is that LupusDei's proposed story would NOT be accepted.

Although the two women ARE over 18, they don't appear to be. That breaks the guidelines because the plot depends on him thinking that one sister is underage and sexual activity takes place in her presence.

It sails close to the wind. I would rewrite it so the confusion is about whether the sisters are older than him (and he is over 18).

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Thanks, I'm afraid that would be the case.

As to rewriting, the basic premise can be written as a light piece of fluff and then it probably is possible to work around, probably by adding to the age of the guy so he see sister as too young even knowing she's over 18, but probably thinking she's just so.

However, the serious and true to facts rendering (at novel size) should have school as background setting and ought to be rather dark tale discussing abuse in many forms. He is not committed to the girlfriend at that point (yet), that relationship is actually result of a bet with another girl a'la Dangerous Liaisons and thus abusive in nature to begin with, and the underage confusion is the key reason why he rules the sister to be out of reach at first. And so forth, while this is the point I have most difficulty with, it isn't the only.

LupusDei said:

Thanks, I'm afraid that would be the case.

As to rewriting, the basic premise can be written as a light piece of fluff and then it probably is possible to work around, probably by adding to the age of the guy so he see sister as too young even knowing she's over 18, but probably thinking she's just so.

However, the serious and true to facts rendering (at novel size) should have school as background setting and ought to be rather dark tale discussing abuse in many forms. He is not committed to the girlfriend at that point (yet), that relationship is actually result of a bet with another girl a'la Dangerous Liaisons and thus abusive in nature to begin with, and the underage confusion is the key reason why he rules the sister to be out of reach at first. And so forth, while this is the point I have most difficulty with, it isn't the only.

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Leaver that part out. I hate conflict in these stories.

Consider the sister is sort of tomboyish/bookwormish and doesn't even realize she has the bimbo type body. This could be her coming out, unleashing her inner slut that takes her over.

jaF0 said:

Consider the sister is sort of tomboyish/bookwormish and doesn't even realize she has the bimbo type body. This could be her coming out, unleashing her inner slut that takes her over.

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Lol, you couldn't go more wrong, that's the girl in question:

For what, or more precisely, whom I will see when I do open the door I wasn’t ready in any way. She stands with her hand lifted to reach the button of the doorbell, and have to jump back to not be hit with door leaf that so unexpectedly attack her, but Jenny’s mother she definitely isn’t, it is some truly beautiful, young girl I haven't seen here. And what a girl! Is that really Diana the huntress herself whom I see in front of me?

She isn’t shaken by what happened, she steps forward with wide, sunny smile, now lifting both hands for a hug. ‘Hey, whom I see! Boy, do you still remember how we chased down that piggie in the vineyards behind Calydonia?’

Right, she isn’t the goddess, she’s the young apprentice, but that’s even worse. And she looks just like back then, her tall, slim body just as firm and muscular, her light tunic just as short and her bag over the shoulder large enough to carry away not only that hide but also armor of all those brave men I killed that day because of her. What a great day that was! But I step back, I’m not that easy prey and don’t have golden apples to go and chase her anyway.

Now her face darken, she returns down to more direct reality, let hands drop and eyebrows pucker, now she’s actually angry. ‘Whoa, mistaken you for someone. But what you, whomever you are, do in my flat anyway?’

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LupusDei said:

Guy is 18. He got a girlfriend, who is a bit shy, completely plain and a bit chubby. They have sex in her room she share with her younger sister. Sister walks in on them. More than once, and act provocatively, changing in plain sight and alike. But gf seems to see nothing wrong, evidently unable to see sexual tension in context of her sister.

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On this premise, with a character believing the sister is younger, I'd think it would be booted out. It doesn't matter how you later elaborate the true ages, it's the premise of the "younger" age in context that matters.

The line is there, don't try to wriggle under it. Up-age them, make it a university college story, not a high school story, and it would be allowed.

LupusDei said:

How about age confusion the other way around?

Here's a situation and a true (and personal) story I would like to write:

Guy is 18. He got a girlfriend, who is a bit shy, completely plain and a bit chubby. They have sex in her room she share with her younger sister. Sister walks in on them. More than once, and act provocatively, changing in plain sight and alike. But gf seems to see nothing wrong, evidently unable to see sexual tension in context of her sister.

Sis is taller, lean and muscular and absolutely gorgeous, confident and outgoing, even laud and dominant. Guy is totally smitten by her, but heavily conflicted and suppress his attraction to the sister. Prominent between his reasons is his belief that sister should be underage.

What he doesn't know is that his girlfriend is full year older than he thinks, she skipped a year in school and hide it to not go in the reasons (she was raped), and sisters are 'Irish twins' so the younger sister is 18 already as well.

Sister's behaviour is important conflict point and reason for plot advancement. While it is possible to clear the confusion earlier than it was historically (because it wear off anyway), the initial shock is what is valuable.

Have this a chance to float? Reques a forewarning in the initial note?

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I don't think this will work.

A good general rule, in trying to figure out the application of the rule, is to ask yourself why you are flirting with underage issues in the story. Why would you set up the story this way? What does it add? The answer is that the underage angle is part of the eroticism of the story, and that's what Laurel's rule prevents. Just don't go there, at all, and you won't have a problem.

The top-rated series The Last Boy Scout gets away with older+younger sisters with the younger acting suspiciously immature but IIRC she's never STATED to appear underage. That's REAL close to the line.

electricblue66 said:

On this premise, with a character believing the sister is younger, I'd think it would be booted out. It doesn't matter how you later elaborate the true ages, it's the premise of the "younger" age in context that matters.

The line is there, don't try to wriggle under it. Up-age them, make it a university college story, not a high school story, and it would be allowed.

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SimonDoom said:

I don't think this will work.

A good general rule, in trying to figure out the application of the rule, is to ask yourself why you are flirting with underage issues in the story. Why would you set up the story this way? What does it add? The answer is that the underage angle is part of the eroticism of the story, and that's what Laurel's rule prevents. Just don't go there, at all, and you won't have a problem.

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Yeah. That's about right.

Only I'm not setting up a story, but trying to tell a honest tale, the story, and there only that much wriggle room with the facts, and this was the closest I could get.

Bottom line, it isn't a story for this site.
Probably for the better. Actually, I will rather rip out all graphic sex than age issues, and there not that much of that to begin with.
Episodic adaptations are a possibility, even might be fun to pornify, and are way less ambitious anyway.

Still... yeah, it's one of my two "big" things, and just about THE reason why I ever got the strange idea of trying to write anything in English (a language that I don't speak and is strictly written only for me).

Hypoxia said:

The top-rated series The Last Boy Scout gets away with older+younger sisters with the younger acting suspiciously immature but IIRC she's never STATED to appear underage. That's REAL close to the line.

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Liked that story, and you're probably right, but I never did the mental math, and sure, there no claims.

Then there somewhere was a story where it was stated that a villain used to rape children, and then they take the main character, who is barely legal, and it easily could read as an illustration. That's probably dirty, but had fallen between the cracks, and formally did conform to the letter, if not spirit. It was rather disturbing, and, I believe, was intended so.

LupusDei said:

...I'm not setting up a story, but trying to tell a honest tale, the story, and there only that much wriggle room with the facts, and this was the closest I could get.

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LIT is not a news site. The stories here are (mostly) fiction, not factual reports. Yes, episodes in some of my tales are straight reporting, but tarted-up to be arousing, and set in contexts that meet LIT rules. The sisters he encounters ARE all over 18, you-betcha. None of the schoolboys she does are underage, of COURSE not. Yes, the ape DID talk.

You can post an honest tale to your blog or to other sites. LIT can only handle limited amounts of honesty. The business model has succeeded so far.

Hypoxia said:

LIT is not a news site. The stories here are (mostly) fiction, not factual reports. Yes, episodes in some of my tales are straight reporting, but tarted-up to be arousing, and set in contexts that meet LIT rules. The sisters he encounters ARE all over 18, you-betcha. None of the schoolboys she does are underage, of COURSE not. Yes, the ape DID talk.

You can post an honest tale to your blog or to other sites. LIT can only handle limited amounts of honesty. The business model has succeeded so far.

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Exactly. No need to go critical, I said about that much myself already.

LupusDei said:

Guy is 18. He got a girlfriend, who is a bit shy, completely plain and a bit chubby. They have sex in her room she share with her younger sister. Sister walks in on them. More than once, and act provocatively, changing in plain sight and alike. But gf seems to see nothing wrong, evidently unable to see sexual tension in context of her sister.

Sis is taller, lean and muscular and absolutely gorgeous, confident and outgoing, even laud and dominant. Guy is totally smitten by her, but heavily conflicted and suppress his attraction to the sister. Prominent between his reasons is his belief that sister should be underage.

What he doesn't know is that his girlfriend is full year older than he thinks, she skipped a year in school and hide it to not go in the reasons (she was raped), and sisters are 'Irish twins' so the younger sister is 18 already as well.

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One possible work-around would be to have everybody known to be over 18, but in a situation where the relevant cut-off age is 19, and the confusion is about whether the sister is 18 or 19. For example, although the general age of consent in Alabama is 16, this is raised to 19 for the case of a school employee having sex with a student. If you don't want to set it in Alabama (or Niue, or Bahrain, where AoCs are 19 and 21 respectively) then you could invent a rule along the same lines, since it's fiction.

I don't know whether the story you have in mind allows for that change, but maybe an option?

Bramblethorn said:

One possible work-around would be to have everybody known to be over 18, but in a situation where the relevant cut-off age is 19, and the confusion is about whether the sister is 18 or 19. For example, although the general age of consent in Alabama is 16, this is raised to 19 for the case of a school employee having sex with a student. If you don't want to set it in Alabama (or Niue, or Bahrain, where AoCs are 19 and 21 respectively) then you could invent a rule along the same lines, since it's fiction.

I don't know whether the story you have in mind allows for that change, but maybe an option?

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Thanks, that is indeed very interesting route for a possible fragment adaptation. It doesn't make much sense with rest of the story as originally intended (mc & gf are classmates, sis at different school), and require quite radical changes in the background to be invoked, and also move the argument from based primary in inner morality to external legal considerations (what is not in character, who tends to disregard rules and is a habitual liar), but if focusing on this one situation as a stand alone, it is an option worth consideration.

A Thought:-

Q: "Where, exactly, is the line drawn? "
A: Wherever Laurel wants it

Handley_Page said:

A Thought:-

Q: "Where, exactly, is the line drawn? "
A: Wherever Lauren wants it

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Laurel, HP, LAUREL!

Parody comes to mind, and an ironic attack on the rules. Instead of the players' ages being clustered around the 18-year minor/adult line, they're around the 65-year retirement line, awaiting government old-age benefits. Is she REALLY old enough for the monthly Social Security check?

Handley_Page said:

Q: "Where, exactly, is the line drawn? "
A: Wherever Lauren wants it

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Lauren who?

oggbashan said:

Laurel, HP, LAUREL!

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Hypoxia said:

Parody comes to mind, and an ironic attack on the rules. Instead of the players' ages being clustered around the 18-year minor/adult line, they're around the 65-year retirement line, awaiting government old-age benefits. Is she REALLY old enough for the monthly Social Security check?

Lauren who?

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Thanks, guys.
Mistake corrected.

Handley_Page said:

Mistake corrected.

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If only that worked in the real world.

Oops, I'm getting political.

Shoot me now.

PS: Responding with "Mistale corected" would have been hilarious.

LupusDei said:

How about age confusion the other way around?

Guy is 18. He got a girlfriend, who is a bit shy, completely plain and a bit chubby. They have sex in her room she share with her younger sister. Sister walks in on them. . . Sis is taller, lean and muscular and absolutely gorgeous, confident and outgoing, even laud and dominant. Guy is totally smitten by her, but heavily conflicted and suppress his attraction to the sister. Prominent between his reasons is his belief that sister should be underage.

What he doesn't know is that his girlfriend is full year older than he thinks, she skipped a year in school . . . and sisters are 'Irish twins' so the younger sister is 18 already as well.

Have this a chance to float? Requires a forewarning in the initial note?

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So, the main tension is that the guy is attracted to the sister, whom he erroneously considers to be "off limits."

In your version, the reason he considers her to be off limits is that he erroneously thinks that she is underage. I'm not convinced that this wouldn't fly. The eroticism doesn't derive from her acting underage or seeming to be underage. She acts, and in fact is, of age. It's only "guy's" understanding that's faulty. So while it might take some careful writing to avoid triggering Lauren's radar, I don't see that this concept necessarily violates the spirit of the Lit rules.

However, you might also be able to establish the same dramatic tension in some other way. What if "sister" is "gf's" roommate, and she is just off limits because of that? What if "sister" is enrolled in a convent school, and "guy" thinks she is off limits because she is pursuing a religious vocation. The point is, you can probably compose a story that presents the same dramatic elements you are trying to present but doesn't necessarily involve the same biographical elements.

The other thing that is a bit confusing is that it seems that skipping a year in school and being irish twins sort of cancels out. Suppose that gf was born just after the school year cutoff, and sis was born just before the next year cutoff. Then they would have been in the same grade at school. If gf skipped ahead, she would have been a grade ahead. But that would be just the same as if they'd been born a bit further apart. So from a storytelling point of view, it might be simpler to just say that they were born a year apart and were a year apart in school.