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"To keep the review thread clean..."

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Cub4ucme said:
Madam Editor,

Let me point something out to you so that there is no confusion in the future.
The law of the country where the poetry is copyrighted or published with restrictions is pertinant in each individual case. That said, most copyright law is based on International Law so your point holds very little validity.

Fair use is a very broad term that does not apply to copying and pasting published poetry in the Literotica Forum without expressed permission from the author or owner of the work. It's really not rocket science. You can stretch it and bend it all you want. What you are effectively doing is mudding the work of another author and in a very real sense you diminish the value of the work by doing so each time.

Let's just say you were a painter and I had the ability to recreate your ORIGINAL painting as many times as I wanted to recreate it. Let's assume it had the same artistic value on a wall as it has on a computer screen. You might get ten dollars for your painting or ten thousand dollars for it before I come along. Then I decide I like it so much I want the whole damn world to share it so I copy and paste it all over the net. Then the people who see it and like it decide to print it out and hang it on their walls. This is all with the assumption that the painting looses no artistic integrity in the process which we know is impossible with flatwork. At some point that ten thousand dollar painting is now worth about as much money as it takes to buy the ink and paper it took to print it.

With poetry it's so damn easy to whore it and then when it gets whored people like you who supposedly have some credentials as an editor defend the reproduction as if you have some leg to stand on. It's absurd, offensive
and does damage to any poet who is serious about the art to begin with.

As far as backpeddling goes you can kiss my ass. I didn't dredge up a thread
it was on the first page. I read many of the threads and I have been reading the threads all along. What the hell do you know about my habits or what I do when I get on the Internet. The problem with you is that you don't like the idea of someone stating their mind when they have a legitimate complaint.

I post all over the net and don't have the same problems I have in your cozy little fuck forum. I'm not bothered by your opinions of me because they are based on your own blatant ignorance.

And as far as copyright laws go let's just wait and see what the authors and publishers of the poetry have to say about your practices of copying and pasting their work in here under the guise of education.

best,
andy
Click to expand...

Show me your source. The last time I read the rules they were clear for print, not for web publishing. Copyright law is more art than science; there are many conflicting rules depending on what you read.

The only problem you have in this forum is that you are rude and nasty and people are moved to respond in kind--or not respond at all.

Your huffing and puffing is meaningless to me. I've worked for enough big publishers to know the rules and to know it's not black and white. Funny thing is, I understand your point and it's a good one. And if you go back and read my posts, you'll find I never said that people don't get paid for their poems. I said they don't make a living at it--well very few ever have. I also said if any publisher wants me to remove a poem I will.

Really, you're wasting your time with me. I'm not intimidated by you. You're the type of person my bosses would ask me to write letters to to make you go away. Maybe you'll have better luck with someone else.
 
Tzara said:
Then what is your definition of what makes one a "legitimate poet?" Apparently you feel no one here is, and you don't rate your own work. How does one get to be a "legitimate poet?"

Does your statement that rating is "up to the individual and is completely subjective" apply to other poets too? If so, how can there be any "legimate poets," unless you mean this purely as a term describing your own sensibilities?

Again, just curious. :)
Click to expand...


I never state there is NO legitmate poets on this site. I read the poetry here often and a small percentage of it I would consider legitimate. Beyond that I would say a larger percentage has some credability and potential or I wouldn't keep returning here to read the poems.

Whether I write with any sense of poetic integrity is not for me to judge.

In regards to subjectivety when someone is judging the credability of poetry I think the big issue is whether they have any background in the art themselves to begin with. Then there are those that sell "Hallmark Card" poetry and do quite well and who am I to say that on a broad basis it isn't legitimate?

I can't!

I can say that from my seat I don't consider it legitimate but, I would protect the right of the artist if their work was being whored regardless of whether or not I thought the poetry had any integrity or not.

andy
 
Angeline said:
Show me your source. The last time I read the rules they were clear for print, not for web publishing. Copyright law is more art than science; there are many conflicting rules depending on what you read.

The only problem you have in this forum is that you are rude and nasty and people are moved to respond in kind--or not respond at all.

Your huffing and puffing is meaningless to me. I've worked for enough big publishers to know the rules and to know it's not black and white. Funny thing is, I understand your point and it's a good one. And if you go back and read my posts, you'll find I never said that people don't get paid for their poems. I said they don't make a living at it--well very few ever have. I also said if any publisher wants me to remove a poem I will.

Really, you're wasting your time with me. I'm not intimidated by you. You're the type of person my bosses would ask me to write letters to to make you go away. Maybe you'll have better luck with someone else.
Click to expand...


Didn't you put me on ignore? That's how much credabilty you have.

I will post the copyright laws here so that YOU can clearly read them and stop hiding behind your so called editors badge.

Copyright laws as they pertain to electronic print can be confusing in regards to libraries reprinting books and such. They are however extremely clear on whether or not it is OK to post someone's work anywhere you feel like it on the Internet. You continue to cloud the pond with your ego and your inability to post a critical reply.

I couldn't care less if you filter me or ignore me. Infact, I'd highly recommend it. You don't seem to have the ability to address a point with a clear consicience. Because I disagreee with you and have no interest in your tits
doesn't give you the right to tell me how I should behave when you yourself
are behaving like a child.

I am not your puppy.

best,
andy
 
Cub4ucme said:
Didn't you put me on ignore? That's how much credabilty you have.

I will post the copyright laws here so that YOU can clearly read them and stop hiding behind your so called editors badge.

Copyright laws as they pertain to electronic print can be confusing in regards to libraries reprinting books and such. They are however extremely clear on whether or not it is OK to post someone's work anywhere you feel like it on the Internet. You continue to cloud the pond with your ego and your inability to post a critical reply.

I couldn't care less if you filter me or ignore me. Infact, I'd highly recommend it. You don't seem to have the ability to address a point with a clear consicience. Because I disagreee with you and have no interest in your tits
doesn't give you the right to tell me how I should behave when you yourself
are behaving like a child.

I am not your puppy.

best,
andy
Click to expand...

I had you on ignore. I take you (and the few others I have on ignore) off periodically because I'm a forum moderator, so actually I do have some responsibility for your behavior here. :)

And now and for future reference in regard to my tits? I'm not offering them for your interest. Ever. Just so you're clear on that.
 
Angeline said:
I had you on ignore. I take you (and the few others I have on ignore) off periodically because I'm a forum moderator, so actually I do have some responsibility for your behavior here. :)

And now and for future reference in regard to my tits? I'm not offering them for your interest. Ever. Just so you're clear on that.
Click to expand...


Madam Editor and Moderator,

Your credability slips with every post.

And let it be known in regard to your tits; I was the one who made the point to begin with so have no fear.

To save myself some time; here is a link where you can clearly read the rules and laws in regard to copyrighted text on the net and the interpretation of fair use as it applies in regard to our argument.

Copyright laws are scientific. The fair usel guidlines can be subjective but not to the point where you are stretching them.

Anyone who is interested and has some integrity might want to read the site themselves. It might make a few of you think before you go around stealing other peoples work and posting it under the guise of fair use.

Read it for yourself:


http://www.umuc.edu/library/copy.shtml


andy
 
Cub4ucme said:
I am not your puppy.

best,
andy
Click to expand...
No, not a puppy. I think a tail trying to wag the dog. You are the individual who doesn't seem to be able to clarify their thoughts in this case. Almost everyone else seems to have no problem with waiting for you to produce a legitimate source for all of your jargon-filled arguments.

You have a talent in defecating all over the forum and we all know what orifice that comes out of. So, try to tighten up little sphincter since I know you can't stop being an anus, but I suspect you could be less of a loose one, if you but tried.
 
Cub4ucme said:
Madam Editor and Moderator,

Your credability slips with every post.

And let it be known in regard to your tits; I was the one who made the point to begin with so have no fear.

To save myself some time; here is a link where you can clearly read the rules and laws in regard to copyrighted text on the net and the interpretation of fair use as it applies in regard to our argument.

Copyright laws are scientific. The fair usel guidlines can be subjective but not to the point where you are stretching them.

Anyone who is interested and has some integrity might want to read the site themselves. It might make a few of you think before you go around stealing other peoples work and posting it under the guise of fair use.

Read it for yourself:


http://www.umuc.edu/library/copy.shtml


andy
Click to expand...
That's all well and good, but ... who stands to lose money, since that is the most tangible thing we've got to touch on, from having a properly credited poem appearing in a forum discussion about how good the poet's work is and how we should buy the book if we want to read more?
It's free advertising for poets that would otherwise escape general notice.

Angeline isn't claiming to have written the poem, how can you justify it as theft? I think you should be careful of whose character you're besmirching. No one stole the poem and no one stands to profit from it being on a discussion forum.

Even The New Yorker excuses appearances of poetry in workshop and discussion web pages (check out their submission guidelines if you'd like to confirm that, it's been a month or two since I've looked.)

A thread on a bulletin board isn't publishing, it's like talking to a friend on the phone. Would you accuse me of stealing if I were to read a poem from a book to a friend or how about including it in an email? I wouldn't claim it as my own work, I would just be sharing it in a conversation. And that's all that's happening here.
 
maybe he did post it to bug Ange, maybe he really believes it. I am not here taking sides, just saying that he has a point in the whole posting poetry here... and trust me I have mixed feelings about it, mostly think it can usually only do a writer good


well yes you are here taking sides, you're taking both sides it seems lol

This guy has a history, perhaps you aren't aware of it, or perhaps you've forgotten, I know how busy your life is.
I don't like people with anger issues who come here just to stir the shit.
And we have a few of them.
It pushes my buttons and that is a weakness, which is why I put him on ignore, so i will not be tempted to read his psychobabble and respond.
I admit my imperfections and lack of discipline in this area.
I'm only partly human after all
;)
As for all the rest of it, I don't care.
I felt a friend was being poked by an asshole and I didn't like it
I'd do the same for a lot of people in here
that's just how I am


and now I'm done with this.

Again my best wishes
:rose:
 
Tathagata said:
maybe he did post it to bug Ange, maybe he really believes it. I am not here taking sides, just saying that he has a point in the whole posting poetry here... and trust me I have mixed feelings about it, mostly think it can usually only do a writer good


well yes you are here taking sides, you're taking both sides it seems lol

This guy has a history, perhaps you aren't aware of it, or perhaps you've forgotten, I know how busy your life is.
I don't like people with anger issues who come here just to stir the shit.
And we have a few of them.
It pushes my buttons and that is a weakness, which is why I put him on ignore, so i will not be tempted to read his psychobabble and respond.
I admit my imperfections and lack of discipline in this area.
I'm only partly human after all
;)
As for all the rest of it, I don't care.
I felt a friend was being poked by an asshole and I didn't like it
I'd do the same for a lot of people in here
that's just how I am


and now I'm done with this.

Again my best wishes
:rose:
Click to expand...

I'm glad to see most of us have things in perspective. After all, Schilling is on the disabled list through next Tuesday. Not that I'm especially worried about that either as you know.

I'd fight anyone who was poking your asshole, too. Well, if you wanted me to. :)

:kiss:
 
The link you posted Andy, is very informational, thank you. After reading through, it does seem that while not a science (which is what they say too, Ange) it seems that posting other people's work here without permission is not legit.

I thought these guidelines were interesting and logical. Um... and a lot of legal mumbo jumbo of course....but very informative

I thought this part was very appropriate for this issue:

from http://www.umuc.edu/library/copy.shtml

Tips for the Internet

Always credit the source of your information
Find out if the author of a work (e.g., video, audio, graphic, icon) provides information on how to use his or her work. If explicit guidelines exist, follow them.
Whenever feasible, ask the owner of the copyright for permission. Keep a copy of your request for permission and the permission received.
Click to expand...

Carrie, posting on a thread might not be considered "published" to you, but it is to others. It is not up to us to determine. Some journals will not accept poetry that has appeared anywhere on the web, even your own personal blog. It is not the same as speaking to a friend on the phone or including it in any kind of personal correspondence. It is not about financial gain or loss. I am guessing 90% of the AV's are copyrighted. I bet mine is. Thing is, if it does not bother anyone, then it is not considered a big deal and just because it happens all the time, does not make it "right" or "legal"

I know I am not earning any popularity points here because some will see my opinion as backing the "bad guy" as I have in the past. It is not a matter of how much a person likes or dislikes another or what people have said or done in the past.

Do I think that posting people's work at literotica is harmful to anyone? Very doubtful. But it is nice to know where your work is....surely Billy Collins cannot keep track of the zillion places on the internet his poems appear. Do you think he would care? I bet you a thousand bucks that it HELPS his sales.

As I said before, I had someone take a poem of mine from a site and blast it on his VERY public and highly read blog. If he would have asked, I would have said of course you can post it and say what you want. I would have liked that more than having a friend tell me about it, just seems more respectful, you know, the right thing to do, forget about the law.

I won't post work anymore without permission here. And no, it is not because I am intimidated or ashamed or blah blah blah, it is just that after reading it over and thinking it through, it seems like the right thing to do.
 
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This guy has a history, perhaps you aren't aware of it, or perhaps you've forgotten<<<<<<< Mrs. Moderator

Don't you ever tire of working your fragile and fruitless program?

We all have a history.

If you had any sense of reality or conscience you would have
some idea of what you are talking about.

You don't!

But, keep working your progam. It only affirms who you are.

andy
 
champagne1982 said:
No, not a puppy. I think a tail trying to wag the dog. You are the individual who doesn't seem to be able to clarify their thoughts in this case. Almost everyone else seems to have no problem with waiting for you to produce a legitimate source for all of your jargon-filled arguments.

You have a talent in defecating all over the forum and we all know what orifice that comes out of. So, try to tighten up little sphincter since I know you can't stop being an anus, but I suspect you could be less of a loose one, if you but tried.
Click to expand...


Buzzhead,

I posted the link-- I know it's hard for you to read and comprehend but, the proof is there.

I also took other steps as well to get my point across.

You're just another idiot with a keyboard.

Carry on!

andy
 
Tathagata said:
maybe he did post it to bug Ange, maybe he really believes it. I am not here taking sides, just saying that he has a point in the whole posting poetry here... and trust me I have mixed feelings about it, mostly think it can usually only do a writer good


well yes you are here taking sides, you're taking both sides it seems lol
Click to expand...


If trying to figure out what is true and right counts as taking both sides, then so be it.... I try not to take sides of individual people, but for the issue. It is not easy. :cool: .


This guy has a history, perhaps you aren't aware of it, or perhaps you've forgotten, I know how busy your life is.
Click to expand...

I try not to judge what people say and do based on their past and try to take things in stride. I think it is an important issue and am trying to look at it without thinking about all of the times you and Ange etc have been nice to me or what Andy has said that might have made me mad. For whatever reason, this issue bothers him, and why not take a closer look at it? Part of my liberal background most certainly. I mean, I am the one who thinks we should listen to what the Cylons have to say even though they are trying to wipe out the human race....


I don't like people with anger issues who come here just to stir the shit.
And we have a few of them.
It pushes my buttons and that is a weakness, which is why I put him on ignore, so i will not be tempted to read his psychobabble and respond.
I admit my imperfections and lack of discipline in this area.
I'm only partly human after all
Click to expand...

what part is human? the ears? :) Of course, we are all human, it is just seems to be so easy to get distracted from the issue (which happens to me ALL the time, please do not see this as me being holier than thou, because I do not feel that at all.... I hope I make enough confessions that people realize I know I am flawed beyond recognition


;)
As for all the rest of it, I don't care.
I felt a friend was being poked by an asshole and I didn't like it
I'd do the same for a lot of people in here
that's just how I am
Click to expand...

it is all well and good to defend friends.... and a very human impulse! I think to see something first as a valid complaint makes more sense though. But I do know that monkeys have a longer memory than squirrels, and after someone bites you enough, even if they came to you holding a big shiny apple, you will look for razors before taking that first crunch. It is human too.


and now I'm done with this.

Again my best wishes
:rose:[/QUOTE]


you too! :)
 
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champagne1982 said:
Even The New Yorker excuses appearances of poetry in workshop and discussion web pages (check out their submission guidelines if you'd like to confirm that, it's been a month or two since I've looked.)

A thread on a bulletin board isn't publishing, it's like talking to a friend on the phone. Would you accuse me of stealing if I were to read a poem from a book to a friend or how about including it in an email? I wouldn't claim it as my own work, I would just be sharing it in a conversation. And that's all that's happening here.
Click to expand...

A thread on a bulletin board is PUBLISHING.

All of your contentions I have already addressed.

I remember you very well.

You like to jump in and bring nothing to the table but bullshit.

The New Yorker is one case. If that is true that's fine!

I am not talking about the poetry posted in the New Yorker.

I have already received and email back from the author of a poem
posted here that thanked me and promised she will immediately take
action to have the poem removed from this site.

Fuck you and the frail pony you continuosly ride in on.

andy
 
Angeline said:
I'm glad to see most of us have things in perspective. After all, Schilling is on the disabled list through next Tuesday. Not that I'm especially worried about that either as you know.

I'd fight anyone who was poking your asshole, too. Well, if you wanted me to. :)

:kiss:
Click to expand...

So the little Brownie Club Meeting has started.

Of course "most of" you will have things in your fucked up persepective.

That's because you are a bunch of idiots who can't stand the fact
that someone comes along and doesn't agree with you violating
copyright laws and dimninishing the work of true artists.

You're a bunch of sandwashed lost assholes hanging in here licking
each others faces all the time.

andy
 
Cub4ucme said:
Madam Editor and Moderator,

Your credability slips with every post.

And let it be known in regard to your tits; I was the one who made the point to begin with so have no fear.

To save myself some time; here is a link where you can clearly read the rules and laws in regard to copyrighted text on the net and the interpretation of fair use as it applies in regard to our argument.

Copyright laws are scientific. The fair usel guidlines can be subjective but not to the point where you are stretching them.

Anyone who is interested and has some integrity might want to read the site themselves. It might make a few of you think before you go around stealing other peoples work and posting it under the guise of fair use.

Read it for yourself:


http://www.umuc.edu/library/copy.shtml


andy
Click to expand...
Your own credibility (note the spelling) is undermined by this post, Andy. What you have linked is not "rules and laws" but merely another university guidance document containing information similar to the one I linked earlier. Did you read it? The relevant sections seem to be these:

What Can Be Copied?
<snip>
  • Poetry
    • Multiple copies of a poem of 250 words or less that exist on two pages or less or 250 words from a longer poem.

When is Permission Required?
  • When you intend to use the materials for commercial purposes.
  • When you want to use the materials repeatedly.
  • When you want to use a work in its entirety and it is longer than 2,500 words.

Copyright and Electronic Publishing
  • The same copyright protections exist for the author of a work regardless of whether the work is in a database, CD-ROM, bulletin board, or on the Internet.
  • If you make a copy from an electronic source, such as the Internet or WWW, for your personal use, it is likely to be seen as fair use. However, if you make a copy and put it on your personal WWW site, it less likely to be considered fair use.
  • The Internet IS NOT the public domain. There are both uncopyrighted and copyrighted materials available. Assume a work is copyrighted.
Tips for the Internet
  • Always credit the source of your information
  • Find out if the author of a work (e.g., video, audio, graphic, icon) provides information on how to use his or her work. If explicit guidelines exist, follow them.
  • Whenever feasible, ask the owner of the copyright for permission. Keep a copy of your request for permission and the permission received.
I may be confused, but I don't see that any of these guidelines are clearly violated here. Perhaps the one about crediting the source of the information, although everyone I've seen has listed the author, which is the ultimate source.

Your statement "Copyright laws are scientific" is merely silly. No they're not. They are legal statements. You yourself admit fair use is subjective, and since you have not responded to my question about whether you were an intellectual property attorney, I presume you have no more experience with the principle than I do.

So, I think, your legal argument is inconclusive. I won't say wrong, as that would need to be adjudicated, but you have not made a clear case that the use here is in violation of fair use.

Your moral argument is more convincing, although you don't advance it well. I would argue that posting some "legitimate" poet's poem here has exactly zero influence on income the poet could derive from the poem, as all of the poems were previously published. I don't buy the argument that posting a poem that has appeared in Poetry makes it less valuable simply because it has appeared somewhere on the Internet.

But I could argue that its appearance on a (ahem) erotic literature site might offend the author. Say, for example, a particular author, in his or her private life, belongs to an anti-pornography organization. He or she might very well be highly displeased for their work to appear on a web site devoted to erotic stories.

But that does not, in itself, make the act illegal. My opinion is that none of us know whether or not it is legal. You've certainly convinced me that you don't know. But you have made me think about whether I am comfortable in doing it or not.

Now please try and be less combative. Trust me, it'll work better for you. :)
 
annaswirls said:
The link you posted Andy, is very informational, thank you. After reading through, it does seem that while not a science (which is what they say too, Ange) it seems that posting other people's work here without permission is not legit.

I thought these guidelines were interesting and logical. Um... and a lot of legal mumbo jumbo of course....but very informative

I thought this part was very appropriate for this issue:

from http://www.umuc.edu/library/copy.shtml



Carrie, posting on a thread might not be considered "published" to you, but it is to others. It is not up to us to determine. Some journals will not accept poetry that has appeared anywhere on the web, even your own personal blog. It is not the same as speaking to a friend on the phone or including it in any kind of personal correspondence. It is not about financial gain or loss. I am guessing 90% of the AV's are copyrighted. I bet mine is. Thing is, if it does not bother anyone, then it is not considered a big deal and just because it happens all the time, does not make it "right" or "legal"

I know I am not earning any popularity points here because some will see my opinion as backing the "bad guy" as I have in the past. It is not a matter of how much a person likes or dislikes another or what people have said or done in the past.

Do I think that posting people's work at literotica is harmful to anyone? Very doubtful. But it is nice to know where your work is....surely Billy Collins cannot keep track of the zillion places on the internet his poems appear. Do you think he would care? I bet you a thousand bucks that it HELPS his sales.

As I said before, I had someone take a poem of mine from a site and blast it on his VERY public and highly read blog. If he would have asked, I would have said of course you can post it and say what you want. I would have liked that more than having a friend tell me about it, just seems more respectful, you know, the right thing to do, forget about the law.

I won't post work anymore without permission here. And no, it is not because I am intimidated or ashamed or blah blah blah, it is just that after reading it over and thinking it through, it seems like the right thing to do.
Click to expand...

Finally, someone who understands it isn't a personal issue. I didn't come in
here to attack anyone. I get attacked and then the pit bulls come running in.

I don't care who doesn't or doesn't like me. I do care about poetry.
You can believe that or not. You can hate my fucking guts if you like.

In the end I am right about what I was complaining about. I have had my poetry copied and pasted more than a few times and I don't like it because I feel it's a personal thing where I should be able to choose where it is placed.

I appreciate your response and I am fully aware that it doesn't mean you are taking my side. I am aware enough to realize that you read something and undertood facts and processed them like a normal human being.

I repspect your for that.

Besides, any poetry that you want to share here, you most likely found on the net. Why not just provide a verse with a link?

Then you would be promoting the artist and preserving the art.
You can disagree but, you can't prove me wrong.
So, instead you will attempt to beat me over the head.
By now you should realize that definately won't work.
My suggestion is to ignore me or respond with something
more concrete or critical than, well, I see most of us
agree; or, this guy has done this before.

What happens is I end up dealing with ten of you protecting
your so called friends while most of you bury youselves
in your own pile of shit.

Sad but true!

best,
andy
 
annaswirls said:
The link you posted Andy, is very informational, thank you. After reading through, it does seem that while not a science (which is what they say too, Ange) it seems that posting other people's work here without permission is not legit.

I thought these guidelines were interesting and logical. Um... and a lot of legal mumbo jumbo of course....but very informative

I thought this part was very appropriate for this issue:

from http://www.umuc.edu/library/copy.shtml



Carrie, posting on a thread might not be considered "published" to you, but it is to others. It is not up to us to determine. Some journals will not accept poetry that has appeared anywhere on the web, even your own personal blog. It is not the same as speaking to a friend on the phone or including it in any kind of personal correspondence. It is not about financial gain or loss. I am guessing 90% of the AV's are copyrighted. I bet mine is. Thing is, if it does not bother anyone, then it is not considered a big deal and just because it happens all the time, does not make it "right" or "legal"

I know I am not earning any popularity points here because some will see my opinion as backing the "bad guy" as I have in the past. It is not a matter of how much a person likes or dislikes another or what people have said or done in the past.

Do I think that posting people's work at literotica is harmful to anyone? Very doubtful. But it is nice to know where your work is....surely Billy Collins cannot keep track of the zillion places on the internet his poems appear. Do you think he would care? I bet you a thousand bucks that it HELPS his sales.

As I said before, I had someone take a poem of mine from a site and blast it on his VERY public and highly read blog. If he would have asked, I would have said of course you can post it and say what you want. I would have liked that more than having a friend tell me about it, just seems more respectful, you know, the right thing to do, forget about the law.

I won't post work anymore without permission here. And no, it is not because I am intimidated or ashamed or blah blah blah, it is just that after reading it over and thinking it through, it seems like the right thing to do.
Click to expand...

One of the things I learned as an editor, Anna, is that for every source (print, but even moreso online), you can find another, seemingly equally legit source that says the opposite. Think about the Chicago Manual of Style versus the American Psychological Association Style Manual or the New York Times Style Manual. They all contradict each other, not just on points of grammar or style but as to what is legal in terms of quoting sources and when you need to cite and how. It's like statistics, for every number you can quote to support a hypothesis, you can find another that disproves it. And really, I'm not just saying this off the top of my head: one of my jobs for years was to determine which pieces of information (on documents you're very familiar with) needed source citations. I'm not trying to show off. It was my job.

Does this guy have a point? Of course he does, and I'm starting to feel like a broken record pointing out that I think so. Will I post people's poems in the future without their permission? Depends on who it is. I'll think about each case individually, as is my right. My argument is not about that, but with the method of its delivery. And remember how this same person went after Senna Jawa last time he was here (and Senna's remarkable restraint considering how much he knows about poetry and how published he is). I can separate the legitimate argument from the pot stirring, but I also see the overall effort for what it is.

You know me pretty well. I'm cautious. I wouldn't say something here that incriminates me. I have very good reasons that have nothing to do with this discussion why I am cautious here. You know what they are.

I am done trying to make this point. Everyone should do what they feel comfortable with--there's room here for both opinions. :)

Now for heaven's sake take care of yourself and your kiddos (all three of them). That's what I meant about each of us having more important things to deal with in our lives.

:kiss:

PS I sent Rainman the email.
 
Tazra,

I don't give a fuck about spelling and puntuation when I am responding to five people at once.

File that-- OK?

The link I provided does provide the copyright law as well as the universally accepted interpretations.

There are fuckin' gray areas.

There is no damn gray area to my point.

You can type your ass off all you want.

What's being done here is both illegal and immoral.

You can talk in semantics and circles all day.

It's fucking wrong ------------------ PERIOD!

If you gave two shits about poetry you'd agree with me!

That in itself is telling enough for me.

best,
andy
 
Tzara said:
Your own credibility (note the spelling) is undermined by this post, Andy. What you have linked is not "rules and laws" but merely another university guidance document containing information similar to the one I linked earlier. Did you read it? The relevant sections seem to be these:

What Can Be Copied?
<snip>
  • Poetry
    • Multiple copies of a poem of 250 words or less that exist on two pages or less or 250 words from a longer poem.

When is Permission Required?
  • When you intend to use the materials for commercial purposes.
  • When you want to use the materials repeatedly.
  • When you want to use a work in its entirety and it is longer than 2,500 words.

Copyright and Electronic Publishing
  • The same copyright protections exist for the author of a work regardless of whether the work is in a database, CD-ROM, bulletin board, or on the Internet.
  • If you make a copy from an electronic source, such as the Internet or WWW, for your personal use, it is likely to be seen as fair use. However, if you make a copy and put it on your personal WWW site, it less likely to be considered fair use.
  • The Internet IS NOT the public domain. There are both uncopyrighted and copyrighted materials available. Assume a work is copyrighted.
Tips for the Internet
  • Always credit the source of your information
  • Find out if the author of a work (e.g., video, audio, graphic, icon) provides information on how to use his or her work. If explicit guidelines exist, follow them.
  • Whenever feasible, ask the owner of the copyright for permission. Keep a copy of your request for permission and the permission received.
I may be confused, but I don't see that any of these guidelines are clearly violated here. Perhaps the one about crediting the source of the information, although everyone I've seen has listed the author, which is the ultimate source.

Your statement "Copyright laws are scientific" is merely silly. No they're not. They are legal statements. You yourself admit fair use is subjective, and since you have not responded to my question about whether you were an intellectual property attorney, I presume you have no more experience with the principle than I do.

So, I think, your legal argument is inconclusive. I won't say wrong, as that would need to be adjudicated, but you have not made a clear case that the use here is in violation of fair use.

Your moral argument is more convincing, although you don't advance it well. I would argue that posting some "legitimate" poet's poem here has exactly zero influence on income the poet could derive from the poem, as all of the poems were previously published. I don't buy the argument that posting a poem that has appeared in Poetry makes it less valuable simply because it has appeared somewhere on the Internet.

But I could argue that its appearance on a (ahem) erotic literature site might offend the author. Say, for example, a particular author, in his or her private life, belongs to an anti-pornography organization. He or she might very well be highly displeased for their work to appear on a web site devoted to erotic stories.

But that does not, in itself, make the act illegal. My opinion is that none of us know whether or not it is legal. You've certainly convinced me that you don't know. But you have made me think about whether I am comfortable in doing it or not.

Now please try and be less combative. Trust me, it'll work better for you. :)
Click to expand...


You did this a few hours ago.

You go to a website find a small section that supports your weak argument and agenda and cut and paste it as if you have made your point.

Read on and get back to me.

Invest in your argument and then think about it critically or stop wasting my time.

Better yet, if you would like for me to cut and paste the appropriate sections of the website in regards to what has taken place here; by all means let me know.

andy
 
Angeline said:
. And remember how this same person went after Senna Jawa last time he was here (and Senna's remarkable restraint considering how much he knows about poetry and how published he is). I can separate the legitimate argument from the pot stirring, but I also see the overall effort for what it is.


PS I sent Rainman the email.
Click to expand...

Enough said.

Senna is a terrible poet.

He isn't very published either.

I don't know what your credentials are but, I can tell by
the way you keep singing about them that you aren't
as big a deal as you would like me to believe.

I don't like many editors anyway. Most of them are
clueless when it comes to art. They are like robots
with a clear cut prescribed job to do.

I prefer artists over editors and based on your defense
of Senna and his poetry I need not consider your
opion worthy of much anytime again in the future.

He writes third grade Haiku and defends it and then
tries to talk the world into believing it has some
poetic integrity.

The poetry world is not a large circle anymore.
I suggest you step inside it and take a good look
around and then go back to doing your menial
job.

best,
andy
 
Cub4ucme said:
Tazra,

I don't give a fuck about spelling and puntuation when I am responding to five people at once.

File that-- OK?

The link I provided does provide the copyright law as well as the universally accepted interpretations.

There are fuckin' gray areas.

There is no damn gray area to my point.

You can type your ass off all you want.

What's being done here is both illegal and immoral.

You can talk in semantics and circles all day.

It's fucking wrong ------------------ PERIOD!

If you gave two shits about poetry you'd agree with me!

That in itself is telling enough for me.

best,
andy
Click to expand...
Geez, Andy, calm down. You'll have a stroke or something.

As I said, I may be dim. I did not see in your linked document anything that looked like the actual copyright law. You can find that here. And that bit about your spelling was teasing you, dude. You let fly with plenty of epithets about other people--are you so sensitive you can't handle something pretty mild back?

As I said before, I admire your fervor. We disagree on the legality of the act in that you think it is in clear violation and I am not sure. Neither of us are lawyers, so I doubt either can answer this definitively. You have made me think about the moral aspect. Isn't that like a victory for you? I would have thought so, but I guess not.

Everyone talks in semantics, by the way, as it means "the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs."

I'm teasing you, bud. Geez Louise. Have you no sense of humor?
 
Cub4ucme said:
Enough said.

Senna is a terrible poet.

He isn't very published either.

I don't know what your credentials are but, I can tell by
the way you keep singing about them that you aren't
as big a deal as you would like me to believe.

I don't like many editors anyway. Most of them are
clueless when it comes to art. They are like robots
with a clear cut prescribed job to do.

I prefer artists over editors and based on your defense
of Senna and his poetry I need not consider your
opion worthy of much anytime again in the future.

He writes third grade Haiku and defends it and then
tries to talk the world into believing it has some
poetic integrity.

The poetry world is not a large circle anymore.
I suggest you step inside it and take a good look
around and then go back to doing your menial
job.

best,
andy
Click to expand...
I'm curious again. Sorry.

You said earlier "I can say that I can sell my poetry and do so on a regular basis." May I ask where? I'd like to know. Maybe I can sell something.

And, no, I am not mocking you. I'm quite serious.
 
http://www.electronic-school.com/2000/06/0600f2.html

If you do care about the issue and would like something more interesting to read than this thread visit the link above.

Tzara,

No, I don't mind you asking and I don't mind telling you
that I wouldn't provide that information. I'm not here
to promote my poetry or to give people open doors
into my personal life.

I have done what I say I have done.
Take me for my word or don't.

I'd be glad to provide you with a poem that I have been paid
for three times if you like.

That's as far as I'd be willing to go based on my impressions
of some of the people who contribute to this site.

That's about as honest as I can be and I guess I deserve your
question since I did bring it up. My point is being taken out of
context though. What I was trying to communicate is the fact
that it ISN'T difficult (even today) to be paid for poetry.

best,
andy
 
Cub4ucme said:
http://www.electronic-school.com/2000/06/0600f2.html

If you do care about the issue and would like something more interesting to read than this thread visit the link above.

Tzara,

No, I don't mind you asking and I don't mind telling you
that I wouldn't provide that information. I'm not here
to promote my poetry or to give people open doors
into my personal life.

I have done what I say I have done.
Take me for my word or don't.

I'd be glad to provide you with a poem that I have been paid
for three times if you like.

That's as far as I'd be willing to go based on my impressions
of some of the people who contribute to this site.

That's about as honest as I can be and I guess I deserve your
question since I did bring it up. My point is being taken out of
context though. What I was trying to communicate is the fact
that it ISN'T difficult (even today) to be paid for poetry.

best,
andy
Click to expand...
Well, I guess I don't understand how that could be revealing personal information about you unless you've self-published something, but that's OK. I'm not really interested in making money off of poetry anyway. I'd be curious to try it, just to see if I could get someone to pay me for a poem. As others have said, here and elsewhere, there isn't that much money in it.

As regards copyright, as I said earlier, you have helped convince me of the moral argument. I've actually been plagiarized myself--plagiarized, not used with attribution but not permission as we are discussing here. It felt kind of odd. I think my main emotion was that I felt kind of sad for the plagiarist. Poor sod, copying me of all people.

You're much more pleasant when you aren't screaming at people, you know. Just saying. :)
 
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