lable me this, batman:

Unsubmissive property?

One flavor I don't see discussed that often is that of a pyl that is considered to be property with little or no limits by both themselves and their PYL but who may not be submissive all of the time. The PYL may choose to try to break them or to put up with some inconvenience in order not to "ruin" their property in the process of making them completely submissive.

I would think of this as a slave in the more traditional sense of the word. Someone who really is property (has given some sort of blanket consent, contract, etc) but makes no promises to be perfectly obedient and pushes back with varying frequency and to varying degrees, however the underlying concept of the pyl as property is never questioned by either party.

Concubine?

Men have purchased beautiful yet unruly things for centuries. I don't see this as much different and I think the tension may be appealing to some.

Can brats be property?

alexanna said:

Can brats be property?

Click to expand...

If what the owner is looking for is a brat, sure.

Personally -- and even though I'm talking mostly out of my ass here given that I've never had a sub, let alone owned a slave -- I would have absolutely no use for property that adds annoyance and trouble to my life. So, playfully brat or irreverent at appropriate times would be OK. But a pain in the ass when I'm waiting for something to get done? You're out.

DeservingBitch said:

If what the owner is looking for is a brat, sure.

Personally -- and even though I'm talking mostly out of my ass here given that I've never had a sub, let alone owned a slave -- I would have absolutely no use for property that adds annoyance and trouble to my life. So, playfully brat or irreverent at appropriate times would be OK. But a pain in the ass when I'm waiting for something to get done? You're out.

Click to expand...

Perhaps it was all they could afford.

PYLs and S&M....

1.) Top- (BDSM sence) means to me, though not always D/s, I recognize a Top as being dominant during sex. (Or scenes ect.)

2.) Dom- or Dominant, means more formally D/s to me, also (like submissive) implies preffrence to being dominant, but doesn't mean solely that. I think Dom is a overly general term... it only says that the person enjoys being dominant. (No personality characteristics implied.)

3.) Master- to be is a dominant that seeks a submissive to be his slave, he seeks a slave for HIS desires to be met, he doesn't seek to adore and nurture her like a Daddy, and is more formal than a Dom...

4.) Daddy Dom- A dominant that seeks a submissive to mold and nurture, in a more loving, cherished kind of posession. He is looking for a little light in the world, to shine and grow for him, he knows what she needs and what is best and his place in her life is to show her, lead her and empower her to be his little beacon, and in turn her success is positive reflection of him.

I also left out sadist and masochist....

1.) Sadist- a person who derives pleasure from causing pain

2.) Masochist- A person who enjoys pain, finds it extremely pleasurable,

(I am a maso, so I see this sexually...)

I dunno about if someone can be a non sexual masochist... but I am sure they exist....

alexanna said:

One flavor I don't see discussed that often is that of a pyl that is considered to be property with little or no limits by both themselves and their PYL but who may not be submissive all of the time. The PYL may choose to try to break them or to put up with some inconvenience in order not to "ruin" their property in the process of making them completely submissive.

I would think of this as a slave in the more traditional sense of the word. Someone who really is property (has given some sort of blanket consent, contract, etc) but makes no promises to be perfectly obedient and pushes back with varying frequency and to varying degrees, however the underlying concept of the pyl as property is never questioned by either party.

Concubine?

Men have purchased beautiful yet unruly things for centuries. I don't see this as much different and I think the tension may be appealing to some.

Can brats be property?

Click to expand...

My car may stall out or get weird on me, but usually because something's broken and sometimes it's my fault that it's broken in the first place. If it's a nice Saab I'd put up with the hassle of having to take it to the foreign specialist and wait for parts and pay heavily, because I have a really nice status car.

It's never going to drive off somewhere I didn't drive it though.

Beating the car in that situation is rarely the right response, most cars need some support and some cash put into them when they don't work.

However, when I've fixed the car a few times and it's still an underperformer I will go scream at the dealer, trade it in, and get one that doesn't suck. Life is short and I am not put here to be frustrated.

Deserving B (and C, lol) and Brats...

First off,

HEY Deserving, Nice to see your sexy ass (and the avatar... wow, those boots, in that picture... NO ONE makes those kind of boots sexy to me... untill you...)

**tries to remember her reason for posting... but all she can see is super hot little nipples burning into her brain... **

Oh yeah!!

Alexanna, I am joining in on this "brat" discussion...

I like the idea of a "bratty" submissive, but... I was told that a disobedient, or even reluctant submissive is choosing thir will over their masters, therefore, in choosing their wants over their PYLs, serving themself.

I also see there are degrees to brattyness... but... in the slave sence, the slave is their for the pleasure of the Master, and unless it pleases Master, isn't ment to disobey,

that's part of my reasons for not seeing myself as a slave, I either can't, or haven't met the Master who can make me his/her slave... I am too bratty... I'd laugh and shut down, dig my heels in... and suffer before I'd give in...

Just wanted to see what you think of that... since we are all just giving opinions anyways...

I too have yet to see a woman wear slouched boots that cry out to be licked. Amazing.

Ladies, please... *blushes and does the cute looking at the floor thing*

Primalex said:

And you won't see me calling you "wife". So what?

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So that was the salient point. Sorry you missed it.

Homburg said:

There's a little bit of reductio ad absurdum for you. Definitional arguments are lame. But definitional arguments where you aren't ethical enough to present the whole definition, and hit multiple sources? Fucking weak.

Click to expand...

*Takes the gold star bestowed kindly by Nala Cayenne and kneels to offer it to Homburg*

unfoundiamond said:

I like the idea of a "bratty" submissive, but... I was told that a disobedient, or even reluctant submissive is choosing thir will over their masters, therefore, in choosing their wants over their PYLs, serving themself.

I also see there are degrees to brattyness... but... in the slave sence, the slave is their for the pleasure of the Master, and unless it pleases Master, isn't ment to disobey,

that's part of my reasons for not seeing myself as a slave, I either can't, or haven't met the Master who can make me his/her slave... I am too bratty... I'd laugh and shut down, dig my heels in... and suffer before I'd give in...

Click to expand...

I think whether this or that Dom would want such a piece of property is irrelevant to whether or not the brat could be classified as a slave. Some Dom somewhere would probably take them. I would think the issue more about the brat's trustability to honor his or her status as property.

In the BDSM world slave status is apparently dependent on the behaivor of the slave. In the historical sense slave status has nothing to do with the ongoing obedience of the slave, they are a slave if they are the recognized property of another individual.

I have met a few Dom's who enjoy a "willful bitch" slave. They apparently enjoy the extra work as long as it comes with no safewords and no limits. They are not into constant negotiating with a bratty submissive.

**hehe**

DeservingBitch said:

Ladies, please... *blushes and does the cute looking at the floor thing*

Click to expand...

You know you like it... *giggle*

I still can't say I think that someone who serves their own will, can't be focused only on pleasing their master, which is what a slave is ment for, (unless the brattyness is what the Master wants...)

Which is the case of the "Dom"s you spoke of...

But the idea of no safewords and no limits is very frightening to me, as I have hard limits from violent acts.

I am not trying to argue, or attack your points, I thought you brought up the bratty subtopic because you wanted to discuss it, as do I... I just am a brat that wanted to jump in and chat with you...

But...

Where's that hottie, DB at... *giggle*

alexanna said:

One flavor I don't see discussed that often is that of a pyl that is considered to be property with little or no limits by both themselves and their PYL but who may not be submissive all of the time.

Click to expand...

Yeah. I hardly post about that side of me. It's not a flavor I am proud of. It's not His favorite flavor. Not to say there has only been one account to mention. He has has posted on it though, here .. once.. at least. While I am "expected" to be submissive all of the time, I am not. I am far from perfect. I don't even like describing myself as submissive. I'm not a docile little predictable empty headed emotionless nonthinking nonfeeling THING. I am however very quick to obey IYM. ... 99.9% of the time. The rest of the time .. is far from pretty.

These 'less than obedient occasions' ARE quite limited for me though in my interactions with Him... far and few between too. And if we are talking about being submissive in general, in interactions with others... I'm NOT. Fat chance. Not even close.

And ALL of the time is a pretty big phrase to swallow. Everyone steps out of place sometimes.

alexanna said:

The PYL may choose to try to break them or to put up with some inconvenience in order not to "ruin" their property in the process of making them completely submissive.

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Yeah. That's the thing about Him being the one who gets to set all of the limits for both of us. He always GETS to choose...... period (with regard to anything and everything regarding me, or Him). And He has sometimes chosen to let me run my course and most of the time He delivers consequences. I don't buy into the 'ruin' or the 'break them' crap though. I'm not the type who believes that just because I don't fit the describtion or that just because I haven't seen it, that it is not out there... maybe it is.... BUT, I've heard so much talk about the possibilities .. so many threads, never seen any proof of any genuine example of it. I've only heard of incidents which couldn't be described as having an ounce of consent involved... and so that nullifies the theory for me. I only recognize D/s and M/s or whatever the acronynm involving the term slave as being consentual (far as I know, no one here is talking about another type.. outside of consentual).

I've had my ass beat pretty hard, (and had my feelings bruised deeply, to put it lightly, and had my emotions fucked up a bit, on rare occasion.. but they sure made a huge IMPACT... closest I can offer, best examples I can give for another to get a slight idea of what I mean... without them actually going there.. not easy stuff to put into word) for disobedience at times. A couple of times I felt like I could have been what some may be describing as broken ... and as some have described to me, and to others. I don't know how a person measures or qualifies another as being broken. I've asked. No one has offered an accurate method for confirming that it has been done. Are we talking whitecoats with many straps? Rubberroom dwelling drooling and babbling type broken? Who sets the standards? I cry BS on the broken and ruined theories being common, or less than very very rare... it lives with the unicorns, for me.

alexanna said:

I would think of this as a slave in the more traditional sense of the word. Someone who really is property (has given some sort of blanket consent, contract, etc) but makes no promises to be perfectly obedient and pushes back with varying frequency and to varying degrees, however the underlying concept of the pyl as property is never questioned by either party.

Click to expand...

I can be down with that... except, I promised to do my BEST to be perfectly obedient, and we are both realistic enough to know that nothing is ever perfect, including I.[/quote]

alexanna said:

Concubine?

Click to expand...

I fail to fit that definition. Better described as chattel, here.
Married and not inferior, just not the same as, different than He.. and certainly not used just for sexual services .... what a waste that could be. I am for use in an unlimited sense, of course... aKA absolute. So, nope... not concubine.

alexanna said:

Men have purchased beautiful yet unruly things for centuries. I don't see this as much different and I think the tension may be appealing to some.

Can brats be property?

Click to expand...

Not unruley, and NEVER described as a brat, here.
Just realistic.
Imperfect.

Of course a brat can be property.. if their owner allows them that priviledge. They can be described as and/or BE whatever their owner chooses. I think that's just one of the perks of ownership though. In my world, a slave should be whatever the owner expects them to be ( I am speaking of the owner..... NOT a prospective owner , & not anyone else).

I am allowed to be a brat but never ever toward my Owner. It was spelled out clearly to me from day one. He doesn't LET me.

Netzach said:

My car may stall out or get weird on me, but usually because something's broken and sometimes it's my fault that it's broken in the first place. If it's a nice Saab I'd put up with the hassle of having to take it to the foreign specialist and wait for parts and pay heavily, because I have a really nice status car.

It's never going to drive off somewhere I didn't drive it though.

Beating the car in that situation is rarely the right response, most cars need some support and some cash put into them when they don't work.

However, when I've fixed the car a few times and it's still an underperformer I will go scream at the dealer, trade it in, and get one that doesn't suck. Life is short and I am not put here to be frustrated.

Click to expand...

Is there [yet] a Dommish Thought of the Day Thread?

There should be.

sinn0cent1 said:

Is there [yet] a Dommish Thought of the Day Thread?

There should be.

Click to expand...

Actually this year it's just a thought a day regardless of PYL or pyl status!

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=563690

Kewl!

unfoundiamond said:

I am not trying to argue, or attack your points, I thought you brought up the bratty subtopic because you wanted to discuss it, as do I... I just am a brat that wanted to jump in and chat with you...

Click to expand...

I'm confused? Have I offended you?

FurryFury said:

Actually this year it's just a thought a day regardless of PYL or pyl status!

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=563690

Kewl!

Click to expand...

YAY. Great idea... lol.
Thanks Fury!

Netzach said:

Look at all the changing orientations in leather and all the hierarchies - have you looked at the hierarchies in a leather family? While they may not be switching with the same person most people are getting multiple itches scratched. Why would "even Daddies have Daddies" provoke a knowing laugh?

Click to expand...

*knowing laugh*

Netzach said:

I'm pretty down with OSG actually, she's doing what I think is intrinsic to her and frankly the huge tons of crap that she takes from a lot of people actually support my assertion that there are very FEW people as bound to one side of the fence as that.

Click to expand...

I'm in agreement. She's the only person I know who is as steadfast as she is about her place. To be honest, I don't think she calls herself any of the aforementioned labels except maybe slave. I think a lot of people here find if very hard to understand her lifestyle, and despite having been to their house and having an enjoyable three-hour frank conversation with her...even I don't understand it completely. She's a friend of mine, but I'm not sure I understand it 100%.

Oh, and for the labels...I consider myself a queer leathergirl. That right there summarizes me better than anything else. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't get what it means, so I still end up explaining.

sinn0cent1 said:

I can be down with that... except, I promised to do my BEST to be perfectly obedient, and we are both realistic enough to know that nothing is ever perfect, including

Click to expand...

And if you promised only to be property would you still be a slave?

sinn0cent1 said:

He doesn't LET me.

Click to expand...

Now that feels like slave.

I'm just hung up on the idea that the word\label "slave" has something to do with the ongoing self discipline and obedience of the pyl to conform to the PYL's wishes after they have already become the PYL's property.

I understand this is the accepted definition in BDSM culture and I must just get over it.

alexanna said:

I'm confused? Have I offended you?

Click to expand...

Nah, she just has a habit of being defensive when there is no need to be. No worries.

alexanna said:

And if you promised only to be property would you still be a slave?



Now that feels like slave.

I'm just hung up on the idea that the word\label "slave" has something to do with the ongoing self discipline and obedience of the pyl to conform to the PYL's wishes after they have already become the PYL's property.

I understand this is the accepted definition in BDSM culture and I must just get over it.

Click to expand...

If I can only get you to do what I can force you to do every single time I want anything, who's running the show and who owns who? It's a valid variation it's just not a popular one because a lot of people who are Dominant are not interested in being manipulated to that extent.

Pushing back because you have deep seated issues? Let's get you some therapy. Pushing back because you think it's fun? If I think it's fun, you're in luck, if I don't and I really usually don't you get your wish and a vanilla interaction, in which I'll be very compromise and 50/50 happy and anyone who's actually a slave finds that torturous with their owner and gets the hint. Pushing back because something's new and terrifying and you're overloaded, I'll bolster you along. Pushing back because you're overtired? Bedtime enforced. Pushing back because you think that's what might get you the pop in the mouth you really crave? Go hire a pro, I'm not on duty.

It's not something I don't expect, I just don't expect it done for the hell of it.

H doesn't challenge me. It's not that I don't let him, it's that I've created a situation in which he does not *want* to and actually thinks carefully and often to prevent it from happening. I'm happy to let him - there's the door, too. Go ahead, tell me off and act out and you know you'll be going through it. People who think you're pretty great will toe the line nicely when you have trained them to crave and adore you from the core.

H is completely a submissive puppy to women, but with men not remotely, unless he's hot for them. Being easy with your particular person and being generally easy in temprement is totally off base most of the time.

I'm a pain in the ass wherever I go, in bed and out, unusually consistent.

alexanna said:

And if you promised only to be property would you still be a slave?



Now that feels like slave.

I'm just hung up on the idea that the word\label "slave" has something to do with the ongoing self discipline and obedience of the pyl to conform to the PYL's wishes after they have already become the PYL's property.

I understand this is the accepted definition in BDSM culture and I must just get over it.

Click to expand...

When we met, and I consented to belong to Him, that is exactly what I agreed to: Being His property. Obeying Him, pleasing Him. Being whatever He chooses. Doing anything He chooses.

I'd rather He'd allow me to be called property. Only because so many are likely to and have mislabel me, assumed or misinterpreted or define slave differently than He does as it applies to my place with Him, and His expectations.


HE chose to label me slave though.
So, I'm a slave. I'm allowed the priviledge of a bit of flexibility though. I use the word property as much as slave as my label in describing my place with Him to others.
I rarely choose anything ... unless He LETS me... because that is, mainly, what I promised.


A side note: (I use the word LET with it meaning ALLOWS ... @ Homburg and his Oxford Dict) heh.

Netzach said:

If I can only get you to do what I can force you to do every single time I want anything, who's running the show and who owns who? It's a valid variation it's just not a popular one because a lot of people who are Dominant are not interested in being manipulated to that extent.

Click to expand...

Certainly not and not what I am suggesting but I do think there is room to maneuver between always having to be forced and never.

To me slave has more to do with what kind of consent is being given than with the level of obedience of the slave. slave around here seems to mean blanket or initial consent AND almost total obedience. Are consent and obedience mutually exclusive?

I'm not looking for permission to be a brat. I'm generally a very obedient person, both before and after bdsm but I do see the concepts of property and consent as separate from obedience.

Edited to add: And yes I am also a pain in the ass wherever my ass may be despite being obedient.

Switches and Jokes.

To alexanna- I misread your tone, and since I am told I come off arguemenative when I ask questions... I just wanted to be sure you didn't think anything...

I wonder why I am so cautious not to offend...

On another note...

I forgot to add:
(**Get the pitchforks and torches ready girls**)

1.) Swtiches- a person who enjoys diffrent roles dependeding on the needs/mood of the people involved.

A person not able do be completely defined by either dominant or submissive, but in the dynamics of power exchange, genuine.

(In other words I often hear this crap about a person not being able to genuinely be capable of serving, and leading when necessarry... like you aren't really dominant if you enjoy being submissive...)

I think that's crap.

But then again can't see myself being considered a sex slave, so...

(And Oh My F* please god let no one be offended... I am just making conversation... no cause to get your panties in a bunch, take them off insted... and post pictures... make yourself useful)

(**Giggles at herself**and enjoys her jokes**)