Lily's awakening by Coming4you

[Coming4you]

Part 1 of my new multi chapter story was posted earlier.
I am an new author and would appreciate your feedback.

In chapter 1: Lily has her first orgasm at the hands of her Grandpa.
Hope you enjoy!

https://www.literotica.com/s/lilys-awakening-pt-01

 

[myindeeds]

- You need an editor, there are many mistakes which are being missed because your brain reads what it wants to see. It results in the stilted language which is your entire first paragraph.

- So yes, it's a bad opening although keep in mind I am an elitist snob.

- The formatting of your dialogue is wrong, do it like this : https://www.literotica.com/s/dialogue-this

- No semi-colons in fiction

- there is a lot of fake dialogue in your story = it doesn't sound as though it would be spoken by a real human. I'm not saying the dialogue needs to be real (rambling back and forths), I'm saying it needs to like feel as though it could be spoken by real humans with the personalities you have constructed (that also means you aren't developing the personalities your characters IMO)

- it's rather short, aim for 6-8k words.

- your story is short because there is no characterisation, almost no resistance to the sex and little world development. You need CONFLICt. Like, lots of it.

- you don't suck as a new author. No exposition dumps, you have a story with an agenda which doesn't pull punches and you are attempting to develop her emotions throughout the story.

 

[Bramblethorn]

- No semi-colons in fiction

wait, what?

 

[myindeeds]

wait, what?

90% of the time the semi-colon is a crutch for those who can't decide on a comma or a full stop. While it is true the mutant comma does have its use as a halfway house of punctuation, people also forget that unless you are making educated comparisons between two phrases - I do not want to see semicolons in fiction.

- My web-browser counts 8 semi-colons. Go through the story and pick any use of the semi-colon then convince us that the semi-colon was needed.

 

[sr71plt]

Sorry, MyIndeeds, that's just plain silly--among several such calls you make in personal quirk bludgeoning rather than critiquing. I'd counsel authors seeking help giving your "critiques" a wide berth.

 

[lovecraft68]

Sorry, MyIndeeds, that's just plain silly--among several such calls you make in personal quirk bludgeoning rather than critiquing. I'd counsel authors seeking help giving your "critiques" a wide berth.

This says it all

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=3204276&page=submissions

 

[Bramblethorn]

90% of the time the semi-colon is a crutch for those who can't decide on a comma or a full stop. While it is true the mutant comma does have its use as a halfway house of punctuation, people also forget that unless you are making educated comparisons between two phrases - I do not want to see semicolons in fiction.

- My web-browser counts 8 semi-colons. Go through the story and pick any use of the semi-colon then convince us that the semi-colon was needed.

Why would that test be relevant? "Needed" is a much tougher criterion than "acceptable". It's not automatically wrong to use a semicolon, just because there was another option. I do see a lot of misuse of semicolons, in fiction and non-fiction, but that's no reason to ban them altogether.

Here's the beginning of the best-selling work of fiction in the English language, written by a professor of linguistics:

When Mr. Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton.

Bilbo was very rich and very peculiar, and had been the wonder of the Shire for sixty years, ever since his remarkable disappearance and unexpected return. The riches he had brought back from his travels had now become a local legend, and it was popularly believed, whatever the old folk might say, that the Hill at Bag End was full of tunnels stuffed with treasure. And if that was not enough for fame, there was also his prolonged vigour to marvel at. Time wore on, but it seemed to have little effect on Mr. Baggins. At ninety he was much the same as at fifty. At ninety-nine they began to call him well-preserved; but unchanged would have been nearer the mark. There were some that shook their heads and thought this was too much of a good thing; it seemed unfair that anyone should possess (apparently) perpetual youth as well as (reputedly) inexhaustible wealth.

The first chapter alone has 81 semicolons, and yet the book did quite well for itself.

 

[sr71plt]

Why bother? This is just an inexperienced writer/editor pushing personal choice.

In the mainstream, an author considering the help they are getting from someone has credentials available (if they exist) to help them determine how experienced/knowledgeable those giving advice are. In that world, it's true that you don't have to be a writer yourself to give good advice. Your training could be in critique. On this board, there's really no standard you can look at other than what the person giving the critique has shown in their own erotica writing here. And on a board like this, there's no shortage of people willing to give advice who don't know even as much about writing as those they are giving the advice to--but that doesn't stop them from giving the advice. Giving the advice gives them an unearned sense of superiority of knowledge and, they believe, cachet here.

Given the circumstances at Lit., I'd suggest that those asking for writing advice here should pay close attention to what the one giving advice has published here. How does it read to you? Is the content advice relevant to the category you have written in? How has advice by this person on the Feedback forum stacked up with the advice of others--especially ones who actually give examples and cite authorities? Do they give examples clearly showing what they mean (and aren't countered later by another poster)? Do they cite authoritative sources (on fiction) to back them up?

In the case of myindeeds, this poster has frequently given both off-the-wall advice and "never this" or "always that" demands when fiction is not a "never this" or "always that" mode in the most part. The advice has been littered with false sweeping generalizations and based on personal quirk and doesn't leave room for different voice and style in a mode that relies heavily on individual voice and style. And almost universally the original first sentence of the critiqued work is torn apart. The first sentence of anything is not as important as your high school teacher, trying to impose a nonfiction formula of structure, told you it was. Commercial fiction isn't either high school or college English.

 

[lovecraft68]

Why bother? This is just an inexperienced writer/editor pushing personal choice.

In the mainstream, an author considering the help they are getting from someone has credentials available (if they exist) to help them determine how experienced/knowledgeable those giving advice are. In that world, it's true that you don't have to be a writer yourself to give good advice. Your training could be in critique. On this board, there's really no standard you can look at other than what the person giving the critique has shown in their own erotica writing here. And on a board like this, there's no shortage of people willing to give advice who don't know even as much about writing as those they are giving the advice to--but that doesn't stop them from giving the advice. Giving the advice gives them an unearned sense of superiority of knowledge and, they believe, cachet here.

Given the circumstances at Lit., I'd suggest that those asking for writing advice here should pay close attention to what the one giving advice has published here. How does it read to you? Is the content advice relevant to the category you have written in? How has advice by this person on the Feedback forum stacked up with the advice of others--especially ones who actually give examples and cite authorities? Do they give examples clearly showing what they mean (and aren't countered later by another poster)? Do they cite authoritative sources (on fiction) to back them up?

In the case of myindeeds, this poster has frequently given both off-the-wall advice and "never this" or "always that" demands when fiction is not a "never this" or "always that" mode in the most part. The advice has been littered with false sweeping generalizations and based on personal quirk and doesn't leave room for different voice and style in a mode that relies heavily on individual voice and style. And almost universally the original first sentence of the critiqued work is torn apart. The first sentence of anything is not as important as your high school teacher, trying to impose a nonfiction formula of structure, told you it was. Commercial fiction isn't either high school or college English.

So you're saying almost no rules apply to fiction? Aside from the very basics?

 

[sr71plt]

So you're saying almost no rules apply to fiction? Aside from the very basics?

Very few rules in content and structure. Folks try--and succeed with--taking all sorts of strange and new approaches to writing in fiction (and even more in poetry; less in nonfiction). What is paramount, though (even though I don't think writers like James Joyce achieved it) is that the reader understand what you are trying to do and goes with it. This means that there are all sorts of grammar and presentation "better to do" practices involved, but they change with the changes in content and structure approach. Sweeping generalizations just don't work in fiction. Internal consistency is usually important too--unless you want to use inconsistency to jolt the reader. It really is what you can get away with in commercial fiction. It's good to know what the usual rules and conventions are, though, before you start deciding what you can mess with and get away with in your contract with the reader.

What I see a lot of in critiques here on Literotica is guidance to do it like high school English teachers taught you to do it--and a lot of misapplying of what they thought they were taught. But they were teaching underpinnings in high school and basic college English, not the art of writing. The underpinnings are very helpful for assurance in writing, but that's not commercial fiction. And it doesn't stand up well when put next to commercial fiction.

Depending on what you are trying to convey, sentence fragments not only are tolerated, they are what are called for (for instance). They quicken the pace and heighten the tension. You'd get a D- for putting them in something you wrote for high school English. In the commercial world, some folks get a Pulitzer Prize for using sentence fragments well.

 

[lovecraft68]

Very few rules in content and structure. Folks try--and succeed with--taking all sorts of strange and new approaches to writing in fiction (and even more in poetry; less in nonfiction). What is paramount, though (even though I don't think writers like James Joyce achieved it) is that the reader understand what you are trying to do and goes with it. This means that there are all sorts of grammar and presentation "better to do" practices involved, but they change with the changes in content and structure approach. Sweeping generalizations just don't work in fiction. Internal consistency is usually important too--unless you want to use inconsistency to jolt the reader. It really is what you can get away with in commercial fiction. It's good to know what the usual rules and conventions are, though, before you start deciding what you can mess with and get away with in your contract with the reader.

What I see a lot of in critiques here on Literotica is guidance to do it like high school English teachers taught you to do it--and a lot of misapplying of what they thought they were taught. But they were teaching underpinnings in high school and basic college English, not the art of writing. The underpinnings are very helpful for assurance in writing, but that's not commercial fiction. And it doesn't stand up well when put next to commercial fiction.

Depending on what you are trying to convey, sentence fragments not only are tolerated, they are what are called for (for instance). They quicken the pace and heighten the tension. You'd get a D- for putting them in something you wrote for high school English. In the commercial world, some folks get a Pulitzer Prize for using sentence fragments well.

Thanks for the explanation, makes a lot of sense.

 

[myindeeds]

Very few rules in content and structure. Folks try--and succeed with--taking all sorts of strange and new approaches to writing in fiction (and even more in poetry; less in nonfiction). What is paramount, though (even though I don't think writers like James Joyce achieved it) is that the reader understand what you are trying to do and goes with it. This means that there are all sorts of grammar and presentation "better to do" practices involved, but they change with the changes in content and structure approach. Sweeping generalizations just don't work in fiction. Internal consistency is usually important too--unless you want to use inconsistency to jolt the reader. It really is what you can get away with in commercial fiction. It's good to know what the usual rules and conventions are, though, before you start deciding what you can mess with and get away with in your contract with the reader.

What I see a lot of in critiques here on Literotica is guidance to do it like high school English teachers taught you to do it--and a lot of misapplying of what they thought they were taught. But they were teaching underpinnings in high school and basic college English, not the art of writing. The underpinnings are very helpful for assurance in writing, but that's not commercial fiction. And it doesn't stand up well when put next to commercial fiction.

Depending on what you are trying to convey, sentence fragments not only are tolerated, they are what are called for (for instance). They quicken the pace and heighten the tension. You'd get a D- for putting them in something you wrote for high school English. In the commercial world, some folks get a Pulitzer Prize for using sentence fragments well.

So some people do whatever they like and they have won the Pulitzer Prize, and if everyone here also ignores basic English as taught in High School we can all be successful too. Is that what you are trying to say? Because you are wrong.

Anyways, thank you for your essay on the state of English as taught in high school. If you don't have any relevant feedback for Coming4you, then I'll kindly ask you go somewhere else. Whether or not I am a hack, I am trying to discuss fiction, I am not trying to prove my superior intellect.

I would love to hear you explain everything else I said wrong, but that would require you to construct an argument and from what I have seen I don't think you are capable of that.

I do see a lot of misuse of semicolons, in fiction and non-fiction, but that's no reason to ban them altogether.

Here's the beginning of the best-selling work of fiction in the English language, written by a professor of linguistics

Yes, a professor of linguistics and an acclaimed writer. It's is funny that you chose Tolkien as your demonstration because I find his writing is tiresome. This is also what the semicolon does as you read back&forth trying to understand what the writer is trying to say by using the semicolon. But I didn't ask you to prove that that semicolon can be used properly in one of the most famous novels of the modern era, I asked you to show me a properly used semicolon in the story we are supposed to be discussing. I'll lower the bar for you if you can't manage that. Can show me a properly used semicolon in any story on Literotica. Alternatively, can you accept that the semicolon is more trouble than it is worth?

This says it all . . .

Sorry, what does it all say? Does it say that I don't publish on Literotica because there is a subset of the Literotica community who are so toxic that they send abuse to authors when they read a story they know they won't like? You know which stories I mean. And I think we all know what you are really saying: "I have nothing of value to say but I would like to point out my superior worth in this online community. Sigh." OK lovecraft68, your contribution is noted.

 

[sr71plt]

I did have useful information for Coming4you. I suggested staying clear of you--and gave reasons. You give silly guidance.

 

[Bramblethorn]

So some people do whatever they like and they have won the Pulitzer Prize, and if everyone here also ignores basic English as taught in High School we can all be successful too. Is that what you are trying to say? Because you are wrong.

I thought SR was pretty clear there: 'What is paramount... is that the reader understand what you are trying to do and goes with it. This means that there are all sorts of grammar and presentation "better to do" practices involved, but they change with the changes in content and structure approach.'

He wasn't advocating anarchy; he was pointing out that the rules that will get you through high-school English don't automatically apply elsewhere. In that, he's perfectly correct.

Yes, a professor of linguistics and an acclaimed writer. It's is funny that you chose Tolkien as your demonstration because I find his writing is tiresome.

And that much is fine. Everybody has their preferences, and there's a place for them in feedback - for example, it's useful for authors to know that many readers dislike second-person narration. But when you present your personal preference as a rule of fiction, expect people to challenge that.

I am curious, though - can you point me to a successful fiction author who doesn't use semicolons?

This is also what the semicolon does as you read back&forth trying to understand what the writer is trying to say by using the semicolon. But I didn't ask you to prove that that semicolon can be used properly in one of the most famous novels of the modern era,

...well, you kinda did, when you made that blanket assertion about "no semicolons in fiction"...

I asked you to show me a properly used semicolon in the story we are supposed to be discussing.

No, you did not. You asked me to show a needed semicolon, which is a different kettle of fish. I declined to do so because it wasn't relevant to the assertion I was challenging, and because I didn't feel like setting up another opportunity for you to slam a perfectly legitimate choice by the OP.

In most cases, a correctly-placed semicolon can be replaced with a full stop. That doesn't mean it's the best choice. The semicolon can be useful in fine-tuning flow; it communicates that some thoughts are more closely related than others.

Can show me a properly used semicolon in any story on Literotica.

Sure. Here's one of mine:

After a long series of adventures, Fadil and the sea captain (he did have a name; do you think I can remember it?) had come by providence to Salt-Sorrow.

I do not think the flow of that sentence would be improved by substituting a full stop.

 

[myindeeds]

I did have useful information for Coming4you. I suggested staying clear of you--and gave reasons. You give silly guidance.

And it is all silly because -- you say so. Well, now that the arbiter of all that is decent has made his declaration I guess we should all go home. It's a shame I missed all the arguing and explanation for the decision. Although I lost this round I'm going to stick around and discuss what I like because, for better or worse, I am a voting member of the reading community. I don't have any of your honorifics of good taste but that won't stop me.

Sure. Here's one of mine:

After a long series of adventures, Fadil and the sea captain (he did have a name; do you think I can remember it?) had come by providence to Salt-Sorrow.

I do not think the flow of that sentence would be improved by substituting a full stop.

So you gave me an example which is a Frankenstein of brackets and a semicolon and a question mark within the flow of the sentence. What exactly are you trying to prove? That super intelligent writers, such as yourself, can write dazzling literary devices which unnecessarily complicate the language. I suppose the sentence does work in your conversational narration voice, but what doesn't.

In your failing to make a clear statement for the necessity of the semicolon, you are proving the semicolon doesn't belong anymore. The semicolon doesn't have a properly understood function, just like archaic words and language. I can write Daedalean-like, it doesn't mean I should. Only use semicolons at your own peril. . . scratch that. Don't use semicolons.

I am curious, though - can you point me to a successful fiction author who doesn't use semicolons?

Vonnegut, Hemingway and any author who wants to improve the "readability" of their story.

I thought SR was pretty clear there: 'What is paramount... is that the reader understand what you are trying to do and goes with it. This means that there are all sorts of grammar and presentation "better to do" practices involved, but they change with the changes in content and structure approach.'

He wasn't advocating anarchy; he was pointing out that the rules that will get you through high-school English don't automatically apply elsewhere. In that, he's perfectly correct.

SR's essay is still offtopic nonsense from a grandstanding troll.

Don't you realise how this has nothing meaningful to say regarding the topic at hand which is "semicolons = not in fiction". What I am saying is that a legitimate tool of the English language does not apply to type of writing called fiction as written by the layman. This isn't a High School law of English, this is a stylistic guideline which is designed for better reading. This is not a discussion of order & anarchy, this is basic readability we are talking here as this feedback has always been about.

And it is nonsense too because his conclusion doesn't make any real account of either the basic laws of English which makes English recognisable as the English language, and the stylistic guidelines which are necessarily contextual.

 

[PennLady]

Part 1 of my new multi chapter story was posted earlier.
I am an new author and would appreciate your feedback.

In chapter 1: Lily has her first orgasm at the hands of her Grandpa.
Hope you enjoy!

https://www.literotica.com/s/lilys-awakening-pt-01

I didn't care for the story, but that's mostly me as I don't like incest stories. From a more technical standpoint:

* Although you were consistent in how you set apart your dialogue, it was hard to follow. Conventionally people use quotation marks (") to denote dialogue, such as: "I'll be there soon," she said.

* Lily did a big 180 on sex. I realize people can have an experience, an epiphany, that changes them, but there was no set up for that here. She wasn't interested in sex, by her own admission, and had been told it was dirty, etc., but then all of a sudden she's letting her own grandfather give her an orgasm?

* Generally I think it moved too fast, but sometimes stories do and it depends on what you're going for. Some people will want more character and conflict, others want to get right to the sex. Write whichever you like.

 

[PennLady]

And it is nonsense too because his conclusion doesn't make any real account of either the basic laws of English which makes English recognisable as the English language, and the stylistic guidelines which are necessarily contextual.

Yet we should take your word over his, or anyone else's, because...?

I use semicolons in my stories and have never had a complaint about them; to my knowledge, anyway.

 

[sr71plt]

At this point, writers seeking advice have responsibility for themselves on the guidance they choose to go with. We've had four authors with extensive erotica writing files and advice history here pointing to problems they see in the advice being given by one new poster with no writing to offer on Literotica and hard rule opinions. Seeking writers can either do the math or they can't.

 

[Bramblethorn]

So you gave me an example which is a Frankenstein of brackets and a semicolon and a question mark within the flow of the sentence.

(Frankenstein was the doctor, not the monster.)

What exactly are you trying to prove?

You specifically asked me to give an example of a correctly-used semicolon in a Literotica story. I gave you one. Now you're asking me why I did that? ...yeah, I'm beginning to ask myself that question too.

That super intelligent writers, such as yourself, can write dazzling literary devices which unnecessarily complicate the language.

Nothing posted here by anybody is "necessary". It's done for enjoyment; judging by the feedback, quite a few readers enjoyed that story and had no difficulty understanding it.

I suppose the sentence does work in your conversational narration voice, but what doesn't.

That's pretty much the point that Pilot made, up above: fiction is less rigid than formal prose.

In your failing to make a clear statement for the necessity of the semicolon, you are proving the semicolon doesn't belong anymore.

Uh huh. And the word "crimson" isn't necessary because we already have "red". Shall we cross that one out of the dictionary?

One of the strengths of English is that there's usually more than one way to say things, but each way has its own unique nuance.

The semicolon doesn't have a properly understood function, just like archaic words and language.

Nonsense. The semicolon has two functions that are well understood by any writer who's been paying attention.

The most common one is as a weaker form of the full stop; although the two halves of this sentence could stand on their own as separate sentences, the semicolon indicates that they're to be considered together. Related to that, it allows for some nuance in sentence flow.

The second is as a list separator in cases where a comma won't do: "I've lived in Springfield, Massachusetts; Portland, Maine; and Laramie, Wyoming."

Re. authors who don't use semicolons:

Vonnegut, Hemingway and any author who wants to improve the "readability" of their story.

Vonnegut is indeed quoted as telling writers "do not use semicolons". I'm not sure whether that was before or after he wrote these and other stories that broke that rule:

That night, he wrote "The Kiss." It wasn't an epic this time, but a simple, immaculate sonnet: "Love is a hawk with velvet claws; Love is a rock with heart and veins; Love is a lion with satin jaws; Love is a storm with silken reins...." - Kurt Vonnegut Jr., "EPICAC"

Puritanism had fallen into such disrepair that not even the oldest spinster thought of putting Susanna in a ducking stool; not even the oldest farmer suspected that Susanna’s diabolical beauty had made his cow run dry. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr., "Miss Temptation" (first sentence).

(See also, e.g., Slaughterhouse-5 and Mother Night.)

As for Hemingway:

That night in the mess after the spaghetti course, which every one ate very quickly and seriously, lifting the spaghetti on the fork until the loose strands hung clear then lowering it into the mouth, or else using a continuous lift and sucking into the mouth, helping ourselves to wine from the grass-covered gallon flask; it swung in a metal cradle and you pulled the neck of the flask down with the forefinger and the wine, clear red, tannic and lovely, poured out into the glass held with the same hand; after this course, the captain commenced picking on the priest.

...

People lived on in it and there were hospitals and cafes and artillery up side streets and two bawdy houses, one for troops and one for officers, and with the end of the summer, the cool nights, the fighting in the mountains beyond the town, the shell-marked iron of the railway bridge, the smashed tunnel by the river where the fighting had been, the trees around the square and the long avenue of trees that led to the square; these with there being girls in the town, the King passing in his motor car, sometimes now seeing his face and little long necked body and gray beard like a goat's chin tuft; all these with the sudden interiors of houses that had lost a wall through shelling, with plaster and rubble in their gardens and sometimes in the street, and the whole thing going well on the Carso made the fall very different from the last fall when we had been in the country.

Each of those two excerpts from "A Farewell to Arms" is just a single sentence, each containing not one but two semicolons. And you thought my sentence was unnecessarily complicated!

Don't you realise how this has nothing meaningful to say regarding the topic at hand which is "semicolons = not in fiction". What I am saying is that a legitimate tool of the English language does not apply to type of writing called fiction as written by the layman. This isn't a High School law of English, this is a stylistic guideline which is designed for better reading.

Who, other than yourself, has seriously advocated such a guideline? It seems like a very odd thing for any professional writer or editor to say.

This is not a discussion of order & anarchy, this is basic readability we are talking here as this feedback has always been about.

And it is nonsense too because his conclusion doesn't make any real account of either the basic laws of English which makes English recognisable as the English language, and the stylistic guidelines which are necessarily contextual.

With all due respect, I don't think the level of writing you've offered in these comments qualifies you to lecture others on "readability". Your vocabulary's good, but you have some peculiar constructions; it reminds me of the way German speakers start out in English.

 

[myindeeds]

At this point, writers seeking advice have responsibility for themselves on the guidance they choose to go with...

Is this an admission that nobody can claim ownership of the English language and we should all try our best to be understood by all? Not exactly, but I will accept your attempt at being reasonable as "close enough".

Who, other than yourself, has seriously advocated such a guideline? It seems like a very odd thing for any professional writer or editor to say.

Vonnegut is indeed quoted as telling writers "do not use semicolons".

QED

What exactly are you trying to prove? That super intelligent writers, such as yourself, can write dazzling literary devices which unnecessarily complicate the language.

Nothing posted here by anybody is "necessary". It's done for enjoyment; judging by the feedback, quite a few readers enjoyed that story and had no difficulty understanding it.

Don't go existentialist on me now. There is room for improvement if the author gets rid of bad sentence constructions and you know it.

When I asked the question "what are you trying to prove?", it was actually a loaded question which I then answered for you. For all your superior writing skills you don't understand that you are merely confusing the language by adding in layers of complications. I do not agree a literary device proves a writer is superior, I think it is intellectually lazy writing. That you didn't make the effort to avoid using a known problem-child of punctuation. You will have to do more than change one mark of punctuation to maintain the rhythm of your writing, but over all your readers will benefit.

So when I said I can write Daedalean-like, I wasn't trying to prove my superior vocabulary for all that it is worth (which is nothing). I was passive-aggressively saying that it is valid for me to use complex & archaic language, but I shouldn't unless I need to which I didn't. Daedalean isn't in the vocabulary of everyone, nor should it, so don't use the word Daedalean unless you must. When I write the word Daedalean, I am being too lazy to think of a synonyms like the words intricate and confusing.

With all due respect, . . .

I accept that you have been trying a little, SR & lovecraft68 not so much. While I have made a few typos I am also not writing published fiction. And I haven't sent my comments to be reviewed by an editor. What I have been offering is my advice on improving the quality & readability of the writing (eg, how to format dialogue).

Why are you so pissed off?

Did I break into your little boys club in this forum? Then I say I haven't because I am basically the only person around here who is making an effort to offer constructive feedback on improving readability. You have nothing to fear about me.

 

[sr71plt]

Is this an admission that nobody can claim ownership of the English language and we should all try our best to be understood by all? Not exactly, but I will accept your attempt at being reasonable as "close enough".

Doesn't mean much to me, because I think you are arrogant, inexperienced, and a danger to writers. So I continue to counsel writers who are looking for "best practices" in writing fiction/erotica to give you a wide berth for their own good. It's up to them if they want to do so.

 

[myindeeds]

Doesn't mean much to me. . ..

ahaha, Good 'ol SR. We wouldn't have you as any other way than our resident hate-monger.

Next time you descend upon me can we at least have some boundary rules. I'll agree not to turn the issue into a debate about your ego if you agree to try and explain why you think I am wrong.

 

[sr71plt]

With luck, folks here will use their brains and value their stories, and you'll just be ignored--as you deserve to be.

 

[Bramblethorn]

QED

Nope. I said serious. Vonnegut clearly wasn't serious about that rule, since he didn't follow it himself. He also wrote "We have to continually be jumping off cliffs and developing our wings on the way down"; we might conclude that it's unwise to take all of his advice literally.

You still haven't given us a single example of a successful fiction author who practices the advice you're promoting, though you've helped identify two who don't.

When I asked the question "what are you trying to prove?", it was actually a loaded question which I then answered for you. For all your superior writing skills you don't understand that you are merely confusing the language by adding in layers of complications.

I disagree, and my readers would appear to disagree, and others in this thread who make a fair bit of money through selling their fiction have also stated their disagreement, and it looks like every major fiction author disagrees with you.

I know very well that clarity of writing is a virtue. Technical communication is a key professional skill for me, and it's an area where I get excellent feedback. (One of my favourites: "yours was the only presentation I understood!") It's also important in my side job (technical editing).

And when I'm writing fiction, I spend a LOT of time fussing over clarity. Again, judging by reader feedback I'm doing OK there.

But it's naive to assume that clarity equals simplicity. It's possible to write a "complex" sentence that's still easy to read, by paying attention to considerations such as flow. It's also possible to confuse readers even in a "simple" sentence that has no semicolons and no big words, and it's definitely possible to bore them that way. "See Spot run" won't confuse your readers, but it's not likely to entertain them either.

I do not agree a literary device proves a writer is superior,

Nor did I suggest that it did.

I believe in using the right tool for the job. Sometimes that means using a device; sometimes it doesn't.

I think it is intellectually lazy writing.

From where I stand, relying on glib rules like "no semicolons in fiction" is lazy.

Me, I micro-manage my punctuation choices. Every time I need to choose between a period and a semicolon (...comma, nothing at all) I'm weighing up that passage in my mind, testing out the different rhythms that each of those options provides, and thinking about which version feels best.

That takes effort. Whether that effort is a good investment, whether readers actually notice the effects I'm working for, I can't say - you'd have to ask them. But "lazy" it ain't.

That you didn't make the effort to avoid using a known problem-child of punctuation.

We've descended into circular argument here: "semicolons are bad, because they show that you didn't make the effort to avoid using semicolons, which are bad because..."

You keep asserting that semicolons are bad. You haven't given anybody here a reason to take this as anything more than one person's rather peculiar grammatical fetish. Given that just about every successful fiction author ignores this "rule", it's pretty clear that it's nonsense.

I accept that you have been trying a little, SR & lovecraft68 not so much. While I have made a few typos I am also not writing published fiction.

...no, you're not.

Did I break into your little boys club in this forum? Then I say I haven't because I am basically the only person around here who is making an effort to offer constructive feedback on improving readability. You have nothing to fear about me.

Some advice is worse than useless. "No semicolons in fiction" is definitely in that territory.

Anyway, I think we've exhausted the possibilities here and you're getting distinctly tiresome, so I'm going to take advantage of the ignore button. Bye!

 

[observer7]

Definitely voting for Bramblethorn. He knows how to debate.

Myindeeds is freaky crazy brittle. And wrong.