handy advice in sound-bite size

[todski28]

1. Do not write any poem using the pronoun I, unless that I has a completely fictitious referent.

2. If your language is indistinguishable from common speech, give up poetry.

3. Rather than write directly about an emotion, reconfigure it in some imaginative manner.

4. If you write a poem and it sounds like a transcript of a therapy session, throw it away.

5. Do not write any poems about your grandchildren, your pet cat, or the natural beauty of the New England woods.

6. Avoid any declamatory, hieratic, or self-important tone that might infect your poem with Portentous Hush.

7. Write as much satirical, comic, and erotic verse as you can, and make sure that it is highly offensive to somebody.

http://www.expansivepoetryonline.com/journal/cult122001.html

I think some of these points are well argued opinion, but there seems to be little substantiating evidence to back it up. basically this list can probably be argued for or against and if I had any brain what so ever I would have left it alone, but I didn't

 

[Tsotha]

http://www.expansivepoetryonline.com/journal/cult122001.html

a 1201 link I just read.

Tod, I just read the paper/talk. With all due respect to 12, and to you, I must point out that it is an over the top opinion piece with very little in the form of evidence, even if only anedoctal, making absurd claims it cannot sustain. I disagree with just about every word in it, and while I don't have time right now for a full counter, I think it's important to counter opinion with opinion:

1. Do not write any poem using the pronoun I, unless that I has a completely fictitious referent.

Why? Plenty of good poetry uses the pronoun I. The pronoun I has no prejudice toward poets; why should poets have prejudice toward it? In the text, Salemi defends that what is "killing poetry" is the lyric form, especifically because (in his opinion) there is "too much" of it.

That is, (in Salemi's mind) poetry is dying because there is too much "bad poetry", and it obscures "true poetry". Which is the old unsubstantiated elitist bullshit (Portentous Hush, to use Salemi's taxonomy).

2. If your language is indistinguishable from common speech, give up poetry.

Absurd. I wish this was taken out of context, but it isn't, Salemi apparently lives in a world where poets fall from magic trees, and trying to become one is doomed to fail. This point is made even more absurd by Salemi's own sixth point, "avoid Portentous Hush", which is in direct opposition to this one's chastising of using common language.

3. Rather than write directly about an emotion, reconfigure it in some imaginative manner.

This is an OK point, being imaginative is always good. However, if you're writing about an emotion, inside a longer piece that is already imaginative, you're risking being so imaginative that your poem has no connection to reality, and no one can understand what the hell you're talking about. Sometimes there is value in being direct.

In other words, if you're trying to get from A to B, but stop at every single opportunity along the way, you might not get to B after all.

4. If you write a poem and it sounds like a transcript of a therapy session, throw it away.

Why? If it's a poetic transcript, keep it.

5. Do not write any poems about your grandchildren, your pet cat, or the natural beauty of the New England woods.

Why? Because Salemi disapproves of these topics?

6. Avoid any declamatory, hieratic, or self-important tone that might infect your poem with Portentous Hush.

Portentous Hush is defined by Salemi as: "the tendency of contemporary verse to generate an air of highfalutin sanctity about itself, to pose before the reader as Something Of Great Importance, with capital letters."

It's definitely important to keep yourself real, and unpretentious; however, Salemi should have taken his own advice while writing his text. And just what is he suggesting, anyway? How does one prevent an "air of highfalutin sanctity"? Anyone making a point believes they are right; if they didn't they wouldn't be making it!

Which leads us to point 7.

7. Write as much satirical, comic, and erotic verse as you can, and make sure that it is highly offensive to somebody.

Wait, so I should write Portentous Hush, then? Because that pisses people off, according to Salemi. He should make up his damn mind.

 

[todski28]

Tod, I just read the paper/talk. With all due respect to 12, and to you, I must point out that it is an over the top opinion piece with very little in the form of evidence, even if only anedoctal, making absurd claims it cannot sustain. I disagree with just about every word in it, and while I don't have time right now for a full counter, I think it's important to counter opinion with opinion:

1. Do not write any poem using the pronoun I, unless that I has a completely fictitious referent.

Why? Plenty of good poetry uses the pronoun I. The pronoun I has no prejudice toward poets; why should poets have prejudice toward it? In the text, Salemi defends that what is "killing poetry" is the lyric form, especifically because (in his opinion) there is "too much" of it.

That is, (in Salemi's mind) poetry is dying because there is too much "bad poetry", and it obscures "true poetry". Which is the old unsubstantiated elitist bullshit (Portentous Hush, to use Salemi's taxonomy).

2. If your language is indistinguishable from common speech, give up poetry.

Absurd. I wish this was taken out of context, but it isn't, Salemi apparently lives in a world where poets fall from magic trees, and trying to become one is doomed to fail. This point is made even more absurd by Salemi's own sixth point, "avoid Portentous Hush", which is in direct opposition to this one's chastising of using common language.

3. Rather than write directly about an emotion, reconfigure it in some imaginative manner.

This is an OK point, being imaginative is always good. However, if you're writing about an emotion, inside a longer piece that is already imaginative, you're risking being so imaginative that your poem has no connection to reality, and no one can understand what the hell you're talking about. Sometimes there is value in being direct.

In other words, if you're trying to get from A to B, but stop at every single opportunity along the way, you might not get to B after all.

4. If you write a poem and it sounds like a transcript of a therapy session, throw it away.

Why? If it's a poetic transcript, keep it.

5. Do not write any poems about your grandchildren, your pet cat, or the natural beauty of the New England woods.

Why? Because Salemi disapproves of these topics?

6. Avoid any declamatory, hieratic, or self-important tone that might infect your poem with Portentous Hush.

Portentous Hush is defined by Salemi as: "the tendency of contemporary verse to generate an air of highfalutin sanctity about itself, to pose before the reader as Something Of Great Importance, with capital letters."

It's definitely important to keep yourself real, and unpretentious; however, Salemi should have taken his own advice while writing his text. And just what is he suggesting, anyway? How does one prevent an "air of highfalutin sanctity"? Anyone making a point believes they are right; if they didn't they wouldn't be making it!

Which leads us to point 7.

7. Write as much satirical, comic, and erotic verse as you can, and make sure that it is highly offensive to somebody.

Wait, so I should write Portentous Hush, then? Because that pisses people off, according to Salemi. He should make up his damn mind.

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?p=44179963#post44179963
this is where I picked up the link from now I am not sure if 1201 is joking or not with his post he is often cryptic as hell, as for me I always disobey at least one of those things in almost everything I write, as do most of the poems I have read.

I meant this as a joke as opposed to my serious decision to run with Salemi's opinion, I should have clarified my post A LOT! I like your counter arguments to every point, which leads me to another valuable point from my perspective, "todski clarify your god damn self idiot"

I may completely edit the whole original post to avoid the confusion engendered and apologise for my own stupidity

 

[Tsotha]

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?p=44179963#post44179963
this is where I picked up the link from now I am not sure if 1201 is joking or not with his post he is often cryptic as hell, as for me I always disobey at least one of those things in almost everything I write, as do most of the poems I have read.

I meant this as a joke as opposed to my serious decision to run with Salemi's opinion, I should have clarified my post A LOT! I like your counter arguments to every point, which leads me to another valuable point from my perspective, "todski clarify your god damn self idiot"

I may completely edit the whole original post to avoid the confusion engendered and apologise for my own stupidity

Tod, there is absolutely nothing to apologize for. I countered Salemi's opinions mainly because I thought you might take them to heart. While Salemi's passion is commendable, his attempt to pass opinion as truth isn't. You know point two is bullshit — we are all learning, all the time.

 

[twelveoone]

Wait, so I should write Portentous Hush, then? Because that pisses people off, according to Salemi. He should make up his damn mind.

you're learning

 

[twelveoone]

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?p=44179963#post44179963
this is where I picked up the link from now I am not sure if 1201 is joking or not with his post he is often cryptic as hell, as for me I always disobey at least one of those things in almost everything I write, as do most of the poems I have read.

I meant this as a joke as opposed to my serious decision to run with Salemi's opinion, I should have clarified my post A LOT! I like your counter arguments to every point, which leads me to another valuable point from my perspective,

I deleted the offensive part, and will respond
you've arrived
Fuck. Tod, I disobey my own advice, part of the process.
Salemi's bitch has more to do with Gresham's law, i.e. enough of this cheap shit, Salemi's audience is to formalists. The same message applies to free versers. Tsotha did a valuable service to run a counter, shake it out. Like all things, there is a point, think about it.

 

[Tsotha]

you're learning

With every mistake
we (should) surely be learning

 

[UnderYourSpell]

They say we learn from our mistakes, that's why I'm making as many as possible. I'll soon be a genius!

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Better to be the fool and make the world laugh, than to be the dullard and leave them in tears! (Laying claim to that!)

 

[butters]

polish before publish


oops, i already did a version of that. still, it bears repeating and i'm as guilty as the next in neglecting this.

 

[butters]

with writing, you can't please everyone; make sure, at least, you are content with your content.

 

[butters]

you can't travel every possible path

but leave the way open for others to journey

 

[butters]

question, question, question

then accept you'll never know most the answers and move on

 

[butters]

when pruning, it's always good to know when to put down the shears

 

[twelveoone]

1. Do not write any poem using the pronoun I, unless that I has a completely fictitious referent.

2. If your language is indistinguishable from common speech, give up poetry.

3. Rather than write directly about an emotion, reconfigure it in some imaginative manner.

4. If you write a poem and it sounds like a transcript of a therapy session, throw it away.

5. Do not write any poems about your grandchildren, your pet cat, or the natural beauty of the New England woods.

6. Avoid any declamatory, hieratic, or self-important tone that might infect your poem with Portentous Hush.

7. Write as much satirical, comic, and erotic verse as you can, and make sure that it is highly offensive to somebody.

http://www.expansivepoetryonline.com/journal/cult122001.html

I think some of these points are well argued opinion, but there seems to be little substantiating evidence to back it up. basically this list can probably be argued for or against and if I had any brain what so ever I would have left it alone, but I didn't

one it is a piss off for an intended audience
two it is like any goddamned DON'T, guard against - poetry is not a binary system (right/wrong, on/off, stress/notstress, good/bad), because the language is not, rather it is a system of trying to make "sense", 10,000 things tod, and that may be a conservative estimate depending how far down you want to delve into the Taxonomy of things. They are all of not equal value. Some have to be subsumed for the intent of the poem.
The purpose of Salami's rant is to avoid drek that people are prone to write when they feel "poetic".
Drek, of course, is also in the mind of the beholder.
My opinion of the "mind of the beholder", probably is lower than yours, as you seem to take it too literally, not looking at the intent, the purpose.
The purpose may be the most important part of the "sense".
In real life two people can use the exact same sequence of words, and yet the "sense" can be completely different.
"read between the lines" - an absurd thing to say literally as what is between the lines is white space. Yet, you should get the "sense" of it.

 

[HarryHill]

Well look what the cat dragged in

one it is a piss off for an intended audience
two it is like any goddamned DON'T, guard against - poetry is not a binary system (right/wrong, on/off, stress/notstress, good/bad), because the language is not, rather it is a system of trying to make "sense", 10,000 things tod, and that may be a conservative estimate depending how far down you want to delve into the Taxonomy of things. They are all of not equal value. Some have to be subsumed for the intent of the poem.
The purpose of Salami's rant is to avoid drek that people are prone to write when they feel "poetic".
Drek, of course, is also in the mind of the beholder.
My opinion of the "mind of the beholder", probably is lower than yours, as you seem to take it too literally, not looking at the intent, the purpose.
The purpose may be the most important part of the "sense".
In real life two people can use the exact same sequence of words, and yet the "sense" can be completely different.
"read between the lines" - an absurd thing to say literally as what is between the lines is white space. Yet, you should get the "sense" of it.

...................................................................................................
Eight rules of thumb for practising poets

1. Do not write any poem using the pronoun I, unless that I has a completely fictitious referent.
2. If your language is indistinguishable from common speech,give up poetry.
3. Rather than write directly about an emotion, reconfigure it in some imaginative manner.
4. If you write a poem and it sounds like a transcript of a therapy session, throw it away.
5. Do not write any poems about your grandchildren, your pet cat, or the natural beauty of the New England woods.
6. Avoid any declamatory, hieratic, or self-important tone that might infect your poem with Portentous Hush.
Declamotory: pretentiously rethetorical. Hieratic: stylized, fixed, formal
7. Write as much satirical, comic, and erotic verse as you can,and make sure that it is highly offensive to somebody.
Satirical: wit, irony, sarcasm, ridicule. Comic: Amusing, humorous. Erotic: Arousing
8. Remember that, in a semi-literate world, your primary audience is yourself and your own personal criteria of excellence
...............................................................

8 rules Tod, my own personal copy. Mr. G. Salutations.

 

[todski28]

Tip of the hat 1201

one it is a piss off for an intended audience
two it is like any goddamned DON'T, guard against - poetry is not a binary system (right/wrong, on/off, stress/notstress, good/bad), because the language is not, rather it is a system of trying to make "sense", 10,000 things tod, and that may be a conservative estimate depending how far down you want to delve into the Taxonomy of things. They are all of not equal value. Some have to be subsumed for the intent of the poem.
The purpose of Salami's rant is to avoid drek that people are prone to write when they feel "poetic".
Drek, of course, is also in the mind of the beholder.
My opinion of the "mind of the beholder", probably is lower than yours, as you seem to take it too literally, not looking at the intent, the purpose.
The purpose may be the most important part of the "sense".
In real life two people can use the exact same sequence of words, and yet the "sense" can be completely different.
"read between the lines" - an absurd thing to say literally as what is between the lines is white space. Yet, you should get the "sense" of it.

The sense of it, things like undercurrents where the surface appears to be traveling in one direction until you dive in, then realize that it is actually pulling in another direction entirely. I get that sense the more I read, the more I interrogate a poem, which is sort of where the "trivial thoughts thread is supposed to help, and also why I asked for alternate input in that thread we all see things differently, once i see it in there I then start questioning how much is actually there, how much is my own projection 10, 000 things about write

Literal reading and writing for me is still a curse but onward and upward so to speak. Thanks for the rules list Harry like it better than the original

 

[twelveoone]

8. Remember that, in a semi-literate world, your primary audience is yourself and your own personal criteria of excellence
...............................................................

8 rules Tod, my own personal copy. Mr. G. Salutations.

Remember that, in a feces tossing world, your primate audience is yourself and your own personal criteria of excellence.
just don't let your knuckles drag while doing so.

 

[HarryHill]

Remember that, in a feces tossing world, your primate audience is yourself and your own personal criteria of excellence.
just don't let your knuckles drag while doing so.

It all came together with your repost/quote, brought a focus to that other thread like a spotlight. I'd throw feces but they would never be seen under the mountain of bull shit already there.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Never believe you 'know' a person via the Internet, until you've heard them fart and seen them first thing in the morning you will only see the side they want you to see.

 

[Tsotha]

1. If you need to tell someone something, do so directly — to do otherwise is disrespectful and counter-productive.

2. Give people the benefit of the doubt. If you don't, you're not worthy of receiving it.

3. If you are going to address someone, don't be surprised if they respond.

 

[Tsotha]

4. There are no "right" or "perfect" people, only people. Some people will surprise you by doing something good, and others will surprise you when they do something bad. No people can do good or do bad ALL the time.

5. Emotional maturity: the ability to clearly convey to others the feelings you have inside you, and to process and identify the feelings communicated unto you, before formulating your response.

 

[Tsotha]

6. If you don't want criticism, don't post your poem.

7. You do not get to choose whether your poem is good in others' eyes.

8. If you cannot say why something is good / bad, your opinion isn't useful.

9. If you refuse to say why something is bad, you're a troll.

10. Be gentle to others, because you do not know where they have been. And if you are deliberately mean (a bully), don't be surprised when others take off their kid-gloves.

11. You cannot force others to respect you; respect is earned by example and righteous action.

 

[RunningJib]

Don't

Don't preach
The echo is deafening

 

[Tsotha]

12. Your authority in matters poetic is worth absolutely nothing if all your arguments consist of how incredibly (and unarguably) awesome you are.

13. You can't offend someone by saying they "don't know anything about poetry", if they never claimed to know about poetry in the first place.

14. Questions are more important than answers, for questions lead to many answers (some of which are right / wrong, and some of which are better / worse).