You Stink

[dr_mabeuse]

I've been taken to task lately for being harsh on authors who post work here that is deficient in elementary grammar and spelling and it's been suggested that I be more encouraging and positive in my remarks.

I say bullshit.

Would you get up on stage with your violin if you couldn't play a note? Would you step up to the microphone if you couldn't carry a tune in a wheelbarrow? Would you expect the audience then to offer encouragement and positive reinforcement? To say things like, "All you have to do is learn how to play the vfiolein (or sing) and you'll be great!"?

Then why do we have to put up with people posting crap here?

Anyone posting anything here should have at least spell-checked and proofed what their posting. If not, they're just showing their lack of respect and disdain for us. If a person's not even good enough to know that they're no good, they shouldn't be posting here at all. And if they just can't tell, they likewise have no business posting. It's like hiring a chef who can't taste the food. You don't encourage him to keep trying. Get the hell out of here with your sardines in strawberry jam!

We've got some very good stories here and some very dedicated and hard working people whose stuff has been buried in an avalanche of drivel and semi-literate crap. This is what comes of encouraging mediocrity. I say if it's crap, tell them it's crap and be done with it.

No one would stand for this kind of thing in the world of music, or in film, or in any other art. But because to some writing seems as simple as putting two words together we feel that we have to put up with it here. I say, if someone's story stinks, you tell them so. You don't tell them it will be fine as soon as they learn to write, you don't give them the old American "Nice try", so popular today in our mediocre schools. You call a spade a spade.

If someone's a real novice and looking for help, fine. Post it to the feedback section where it can be worked on. But if you post a story here and then invite feedback--worse, if you advertise the story as if it's some piece of genius--then you should expect to take your lumps.

If you're really determined to learn to write, then anything I say won't dissuade you. If you're just looking to get your ass rubbed for wasting my time, then fuck you.

Respectfully,

---dr.M.

 

[English Lady]

I can see your point completely though I don't agree completely. SOmetimes the only waty to learn is dive in at the deep end and give it a go. I posted a story THEN found the forums so I didn't know about this feedback section.



But I think it is your right to react as you you feel, as long as it is rooted in some kind of evidence not just"I didn't like it" It should be counted as constructive critiscism.


A writer who wants to write will keep on at it no matter what critiscism is hurled their way.


Just give everyone a fair chance...thats all you can do!


And anyone thinking about posting a story..don't get scared off by the thought of possible critiscism, give it a go but make sure you've spell checked your work before you submit it, even get a few people to sort of proof read it for you first!

 

[ANIMAGUS]

Constructive Feedback

dr_mabeuse,

I agree with you that people should be able to take the feedabck from their readers whether it be positive or negative. However, negative feedback presented in a negative way only serves to belittle a person. No matter how talented you are, nobody likes to be told that they suck especially in a negative way.

I do not know you, but you sound like a persons who cares about what they read. Instead of beating someone up when you provide your feedback, try to tell them what they did wrong and tell them how they may do better.

- ANIMAGUS

 

[karmadog]

Anyone can learn to spell and use grammar, but that alone won't make them a good writer.

I tend to look for what I think makes a good writer of fiction: a keen eye for the telling detail, fresh metaphors, true dialogue, effective construction, interesting characters, gripping plot, and a sense fo drama (without becoming a drama queen).

True, if the mechanics are too bad, I'll just back click, but I can be tolerant of some mistakes.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

No More Mr Niceguy

Animagus: there's nothing wrong with constructive criticism when there's something to construct, but I'm talking about stories here that are so poorly written that you just know the person doesn't have a clue.

We seem to think here that everyone and anyone can become a writer, and I assure you, that's just not true. If a person has no idea of how to paragraph or where to insert a comma, or how to use quotation marks, then that person shouldn't be submitting. Language and grammar are a writer's instruments, and I think it serve no one's interest to encourage those who don't know the rudiments of using their instrument.

Karmadog: I don't mind occasional lapses in grammar and punctuation; we all make them. And I would allow anyone the freedom to develop their own style, be it without punctuation or one long sentence or fragments thereof. But the writing has to have some redeeming feature. That's all I ask.

I was under the impression that this was a site for literate erotica. It's not remedial english. If someone sucks it's time to tell them that they suck.

This site will soon have the reputation of being the site that will publish anyone and everyone. Maybe that's where you want your writing posted, but it's not where I want mine. That really sucks.

---dr.M.

 

[Whispersecret]

I agree with you, Doc.

However, I think the management is aiming to create a place where fledgling writers can try their "literary" (and I use the term loosely) wings. This is a place of encouragement and experimentation, despite the name of the site. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I've always gotten.

As Animagus said, I think that negative criticism should be handed out with, let's say, kind objectiveness. Because someone is probably going to take criticism personally, a critic is almost always going to start out at a disadvantage. The trick is to be straightforward without being hurtful. I go to great lengths to not give someone false hope as far as their writing goes, even if I think they're talentless.

In a way I wish I could be as candid as you are and just say how I feel about the bad stories, but I can't. It's just not my personality. However, be assured that at least one person out here agrees with you a lot of the time, but is unable to throw off her diplomatic, teacherish mantle.

You go ahead and be yourself. We all have to learn to take the good with the bad. (Not that you're bad, or anything.) I don't like offending people, but neither do I think we should tiptoe along like people's feelings are of the utmost importance.

The bottom line is that if you post it here on a public forum AND you go so far as to ask for feedback, you'd better be prepared for more than accolades.

 

[PaulX35]

The other type of hard on

Dr.

I'm with you on this; proper feedback takes time and when people ask this of you, the least one can expect is that they present work on which the very basic checks have been done. Checking spelling is a basic thing, but being a writer who makes spelling errors himself I'm not too harsh on this; I tend to concentrate on what I think is my strength: feedbacking on the internal logic, story-line etc.

I see this forum as the place to get feedback on how well a story was conceived, on what could make it better, on what it could do without and on more general impressions that'll help you to further perfect it.
That requires you've already done quite a bit of homewok yourself. If that is not the case, there's Story Ideas Forum, I think.

As to the question of how hard one can or should be: I let it depend on what I'm reading. If someone posts painfully poor work and simultaneously thinks he was denied the Nobel Prize for it, I think it's time to allow that person a good look at himself.
If someone shows honestly that this is his very first piece of publicly posted work, I tend to be less harsh, even when it's not too good. Careful analysis, a few tips and some ponderings on how hard writing really is, often do the job too then.
And we should never forget there once was a first time for all of us. For me, that wasn't really that long ago, even


Paul

 

[Pookie]

Dr.

I agree with you. Some of the "stories" I click on every day make me wonder how they could have ever been posted. I know some just like to throw out a fantasy of theirs to see in writing. I can live with that I guess if that is what Literotica wishes to promote. It's frustrating to begin reading a story where it is obvious that the writer has little or no talent/skill.

The only thing I can say is that if you are going to be blunt with criticism, expect some to react emotionally to it. Writing is a personal thing even to the beginner and talentless. Sometimes the same thing can be said along with a spoonful of sugar and achieve the desired or same affect ... sometimes that is.

 

[Madame Manga]

I agree with just about everything you have said, dr. m.--much of what is posted is not just mediocre, it is awful. If someone old enough to write and post an erotic story does not yet have a basic grasp of written language, it's too late. That person will never be a good writer no matter how much well-meant advice he or she may get. As writers, they are a waste of everyone else's time.

But--and it's a big BUT--most "writers" like that are impervious to literary criticism. They had great confidence in their abilities, or they would not have put those stories out for everyone to read. They have no idea that they are terrible writers, because they do not know what good writing is. I have seen studies on self-perception of skills: the less you know about a skill, the better opinion you often have of your ability, or at least, the less importance you give to that particular skill. Tell these people the truth and they will either shrug it off or berate you.

Good writers, or people who may eventually become good writers, almost always realize they may not be perfect. They spell-check, they edit, they ask for beta readers and pay attention to criticism. They may even worry about whether they are good enough to post their stories in a place like Lit. They often need reassurance, at least at the beginning. The only people you can scare away from posting are those with some doubt of their abilities. The rest will not give a damn, IMO.

MM

 

[damppanties]

Hi doc,

Nice topic.

I've been taken to task lately for being harsh on authors who post work here that is deficient in elementary grammar and spelling and it's been suggested that I be more encouraging and positive in my remarks.

No, don't be positive and encouraging, but don't be discouraging either. Just state facts without being derogatory.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Madame Manga...

Thank you for stating what I was trying to say and doing it with more concision than I could. However, I disagree with your conclusions.

I feel that is exactly those people who don't have a clue about the quality of their writing who should be told in terms they can understand that their stuff is bad. These are the people who come in here boasting about their stuff and expecting praise when they don't even have the capacity to tell bad writing from good. (That's why they get so insulted when you tell them their stuff isn't good, because they honestly don't know that.) They have to be hit over the head with some very blunt language.

I have no problem with someone who has doubts about their ability, or someone who earnestly asks for help. I've seen people who didn't have story mechanics down but who had a great eye for detail, or people who could tell a story but couldn't flesh it out, and I encourage these people because I know they have ability and just need work. But the self-satisfied person who writes stuff so bad that it is simply beyond criticism needs to told straight out that his stuff is unreadable.


---dr.M.

 

[Madame Manga]

Re: Madame Manga...

I've seen people who didn't have story mechanics down but who had a great eye for detail, or people who could tell a story but couldn't flesh it out, and I encourage these people because I know they have ability and just need work. But the self-satisfied person who writes stuff so bad that it is simply beyond criticism needs to told straight out that his stuff is unreadable.


---dr.M.

The self-satisfied certainly deserve to be told the truth. Whether it is a good use of your time to tell the truth to someone who will not recognize it will have to be up to you. ;-) I can see some theraputic value in letting loose on a story that seems to have oozed from under a rock, especially when that story and hundreds like it are obscuring better stories from view.

But I am not sure that criticism will discourage the worst of the worst; if anything, they may decide that attention of any kind must mean they have touched a nerve, and they will pump out their crap with renewed vigor.

I have just seen that happen in a fandom I frequent. A new writer has been posting her interminable, indecipherable stories on every fan fiction forum she can find. After several weeks of this with almost no responses to her thousands of words of gibberish, a few readers posted to ask her to cool it. They also mentioned that she could with profit learn to spell, format paragraphs, and indicate speech attributions of some kind.

She went into a rage, accusing her detractors of jealousy and a lack of sexual outlets. Several other readers leaped to her defense, since the cardinal social value of a fan fiction forum is mutual support, not straightforward criticism. "Are we being graded? This is for FUN!" was the usual refrain. The indignancies flew back and forth, and as a result of this little war, she is firmly convinced that she is a persecuted genius. We will never get rid of her now.

Have I mentioned that I enjoy the discussions on Lit far more than I enjoy reading fan fiction forums? ;-)

At any rate, at my age I have decided that life is too short to pay any attention at all to bad writers. ;-) I try to seek out those people you mention who can absorb and employ literary advice, instead of battering my skull against a mountain. Maybe I can make a tiny difference that way!

MM

 

[KillerMuffin]

I asked Laurel about instituting some subjective standards once. She said that she's about having a place where people can post their sexual work, not about running some kind of ezine. No, Lit's not going to get you a Pushcart, but it will give some a push start. She's about encouraging people to write, not just writers to write better.

For those of us arrogant enough to believe our own fanmail, it can be frustrating to have our stuff graded along with some ninny who writes in "chat-speak" and adds smilies to their text.

I used to give feedback. I may just do it again when finals are over. I never pulled punches and I never candycoated. However, I did use a basic amount of tact.

Telling someone their writing is "bad" is something you'll never be able to back up with evidence. You're attacking them, not instructing. You can, instead, tell them that they need to pay a lot more attention to spelling and here's a few highlights of your grammar mistakes. One hopes that others read feedback given to others so you don't repeat yourself, but that never happens.

Anyway. There are ways that you can tell a writer that his or her writing sucks without attacking the writing. I believe it's called being assertive and giving feedback with a desire to help the other writer, not solely a desire to help the self. If you figure out how, let me know cause I could use a lesson.

 

[NoJo]

What stinks?

Steven King's crassness, the eloquent mysogyny and antisemitism of Shakespeare. The tedius monotony of Vivaldi. Mario Puzo's repulsive glamorization of the Mafia.

I don't care how well you say it, or spell it. If you talk shit, it stinks.

 

[Natural Born Eros]

I recently posted my first story, and I got a lot of feedback, much of it from your good selves. It wasn't all positive, and it certainly didn't pussy foot around the issues. I think that is helpful, and whilst it wasn't the easiest thing to read, if I couldn't take it, I wouldn't have asked for feedback here.

I think that the problem the Doc and others are experiencing is typical of web-forums; the range of people trying to use the same facility is too broad. I read a suggestion somewhere on this site that the "experienced" writers should have a seperate section from the newer writers. I was offended, in that even after one story I would wish to classified with the experienced writers rather than the newbies. This isn't (just) arrogance, I believe that I have the technical skills of writing and I am more interested in the nuances and linguistics of a good story than in just getting off. A singificant proportion of stories (and judging by their popularity, of readers) are only interested in the erotica, not the literature.

My solution? Open up a section, similar to the erotic couplings, celebrities, etc, called something like "literature" or something, and only allow the excellently written stories in, regardless of category. Those which didn't make the cut could go into the appropriate "non-literate" category. Or, open up a new coloured-square (I'm new, I don't know the terms!) similar to "H" and "E" called, you guessed it, "L." It could be issued either by the editors or by a panel of the experienced "critics" such as the doc.

Hopefully I've broadened the debate a bit. Please, tell me I stink in a nice, but unambiguous way!

Cheers,

Eros

 

[the_bragis]

Well.....

The first story I ever posted here in Literotica, a the time I thought was good, but it was and still is, since I have never bothered to rehash it, total garbage. If anyone had told me that, I know I would have crawled under a rock somewhere and never attempted to write anything ever again, not that anyone would have cared.

It's only with constructive criticism, helpful feedback, and above all gentle encouragement, that I strive to improve. Each new story I submit creeps just a little higher up in ratings, and gains just a few more viewings. That's very exciting for an amateur like me.

We seem to think here that everyone and anyone can become a writer, and I assure you, that's just not true. If a person has no idea of how to paragraph or where to insert a comma, or how to use quotation marks, then that person shouldn't be submitting. - dr mabeuse

I must agree to disagree with you on that one. I know of at least one author in here, (I won't embarrass him by naming him) whose stories are riddled with errors, however, the man has the most incredible imagination and wicked way with words. He's extremely talented, and I happy to say, his writing skills are improving all the time. He knows who he is, and I just can't read enough of his stuff.

I agree there are some incredibly skilled and talented authors on this site, but how did they get that way?

Well, have a great day now,

Alex (female variety and half of the Bragis.)

 

[PaulX35]

My solution? Open up a section, similar to the erotic couplings, celebrities, etc, called something like "literature" or something, and only allow the excellently written stories in, regardless of category. Those which didn't make the cut could go into the appropriate "non-literate" category. Or, open up a new coloured-square (I'm new, I don't know the terms!) similar to "H" and "E" called, you guessed it, "L." It could be issued either by the editors or by a panel of the experienced "critics" such as the doc.

Eros,

Not really too bad an idea, I think. It will always leave us with the question how to discriminate, but if we'd leave that choice to the ones who post, we might be able to concentrate on the real critique stuff in the "Advanced" forum, while being able to leave the encouragements and basic comments to the "Starters" forum.
I'm not sure though if this will trigger the desired effect, as we will always have the pompous no-talents post in the advanced forum.
You could come up with all sorts of pre-selection procedures, but that would take away much of the spontaneous qualities of a board like this, I think.

But the idea is worth considering. Any management opinions on this?

Paul

 

[Pookie]

I have read some stories here that would make a grammer teacher beam with joy, but just plain sucked. I agree that grammer is important when it comes to writing. However, the most important thing a writer must have is the ability to tell a story in a manner that is entertaining. Grammer can help tremendously with this, but it is not what will make or break a great author. If you can't tell a story, it doesn't matter how well you demonstrate proper mechanics and grammer.

As far as setting up an advanced section? One man's junk is another man's treasure. Who will decide what is junk and what is treasure? This website is what it is, a place for all to post if they follow the basic rules. What I may consider a waste of time might be a major accomplishment to someone else.

 

[tim2uk]

Anyone posting anything here should have at least spell-checked and proofed what their posting.

Am I the only one who finds this funny?

 

[PaulX35]

Well spotted Bruce!

Am I the only one who finds this funny?

We'll have to notify the Dr. of this of course.

Paul

 

[BigTexan]

I've been taken to task lately for being harsh on authors who post work here that is deficient in elementary grammar and spelling and it's been suggested that I be more encouraging and positive in my remarks.

I say bullshit.

---dr.M.

Dr. M. I'm going to post a link to an article that I hope you will read with an open mind. It is very worthwhile.

http://www.critters.org/whathow.html

I agree that many of the stories on Lit suck! I've even expressed that some other threads. I've even been accused of the same thing you seem to have been accused of. It has dramatically reduced the number of critiques I do. Basically if I can't find something good to say about a story, then I won't do a critique.

But even when I do a critique, if I have harsh things to say I try to remember this article and to say them in such a way that the author will learn from them instead of just being offended. I may not always succeed, but I do try.

Anyways, have a look at the article. You may find it useful.

BigTexan

 

[PaulX35]

But even when I do a critique, if I have harsh things to say I try to remember this article and to say them in such a way that the author will learn from them instead of just being offended. I may not always succeed, but I do try.

BT,

Thanks for bringing this article to our attention. It contains valuable basics of communication.
The dr. however also addressed even more basic points. Even the article you referred to starts with saying how annoying it is for editors to be confronted with lazy spelling, improper punctuation and proper handling of dialogue.

English is not my first language, so I'm bound to make grammar and idiomatic errors: but I do want to avoid them, even when some seem to actually be taking on a liking for my somewhat typical non-English-English, but that's another matter.

Main point, in my opinion, is, that people here invest part of their precious time in commenting on work, as volunteers and because they enjoy doing it. The least you should do then as a posting writer, is to show others you have done your homework. It shows you have done your part of the free deal, before asking others to do theirs.

The Internet is characterized by a wide variety of standards. This goes for erotica as well. This site, however, is called "literotica", which means we should set our standards at a more serious level. There are tons of other places to post stories that suck, and there's even an audience there that will appreciate them. Here, we aim at a more literary level, and that means we should try and get the basics right, to start with. It will never make a story perfect by itself, but it's a necessary condition I'd say.

Paul

 

[BigTexan]

Main point, in my opinion, is, that people here invest part of their precious time in commenting on work, as volunteers and because they enjoy doing it. The least you should do then as a posting writer, is to show others you have done your homework. It shows you have done your part of the free deal, before asking others to do theirs.

Paul

Well put and well taken. I really wasn't trying to belittle the points that Dr. M. was making.

I just thought that the article was something that we all can benefit from.

BigTexan

 

[Pookie]

Main point, in my opinion, is, that people here invest part of their precious time in commenting on work, as volunteers and because they enjoy doing it. The least you should do then as a posting writer, is to show others you have done your homework. It shows you have done your part of the free deal, before asking others to do theirs.

I completely agree. I know my time is very limited anyways. Plus, I still feel like I'm something of a novice myself so I haven't attempted to offer much in the way of feedback on this website.

However, if you are going to kick the dog, don't be shocked when the dog growls back at you.

The Internet is characterized by a wide variety of standards. This goes for erotica as well. This site, however, is called "literotica", which means we should set our standards at a more serious level. There are tons of other places to post stories that suck, and there's even an audience there that will appreciate them. Here, we aim at a more literary level, and that means we should try and get the basics right, to start with. It will never make a story perfect by itself, but it's a necessary condition I'd say.
[/B]

I don't think Laurel has set any standards beyond the listed rules. If she posts a "story" as submitted, apparantly she considers it worthy of being listed with everything else. Laurel sets the standards with each submission she aproves ... those are the standards, good or bad, that we have to live with as authors when visiting "literotica" (whats in a name?). I agree that I would like to see a higher standard, but it's not my website.

Edit note: I mis-spelled growl ... sheesh

 

[Guest]

took the words out of my mouth

Am I the only one who finds this funny?

There are several other errors.... In several posters....

I know that I frequently post on the board and miss a misuse...

I do hold a different standard for what is submitted as prose.

Unfortunately, dr_m, as a rule, grammar and spelling are no longer taught in public schools. They are "low level skills that anyone can use spell and grammar checks to correct".

I recently read a state's English/Language Arts Standards. Off of the first page jumped: "In order to insure children are able to ......."

Are they going to subscribe to MetLife or Travelers?

I might have let it slide in the Math Standards... but ELA?!!

I will not rant about how devoid these standards were of meaningful content. Nor will I express my disgust at the elevation of "meaningful expression" to substitute for "accurate and effective communication".

*stepping off of soap box*

dr_m, save your energies and efforts for works that appeal to you and meet with your minimal standards. Ignore the rest. Life's too short to be distracted by irritants.

Those that do meet your standards appreciate your constructive remarks. Those that don't will never get it anyway...

b