Yes, Virginia (and other states), there is an American plutocracy

[LittleDixie]

I glad you understand it is true....we are a democracy and you just admitted it.

Representative democracy, not direct democracy.

But, the presence of rich people doesn't change the fact that we vote for representatives, so I guess by your logic, we have both rich people and democracy at the same time, and that proves the quote wrong.

 

[WillJ8787]

The one that vets the list, pre-election, of those democratically elected representatives.

I'll put you down in the "deny" rather than the "defend" column -- and I'll hope you stay there; that column is more ignorant but less loathsome.

N.B.: I know you tend to see politics in terms of "liberalism" on one side vs. authoritarianism on the other -- but this is not that kind of question. If the plutocracy were to decide you should have no guns, you would have no guns.

It's like Smith in the Matrix, while questioning Morphious...."he doesn't know".

The manufacture of consent....we deal with children here and their child like views.

 

[CornusKousa]

Representative democracy, not direct democracy.

Yup... still a democracy.

But, the presence of rich people doesn't change the fact that we vote for representatives, so I guess by your logic, we have both rich people and democracy at the same time, and that proves the quote wrong.

No that's peck's "logic" ... or total lack there of.

I point out the same thing, we have a democracy, not a plutocracy.

Peck can't actually refute that or support his assertion that we have a plutocracy.

 

[pecksniff]

Peck can't actually refute that or support his assertion that we have a plutocracy.

The fact that it always gets its way is proof enough. It strains credulity that the majority of voters would want done the same things the rich want done.

 

[LittleDixie]

Yup... still a democracy.

If you are saying that a culture that voted for it's "leaders" is a democracy, then the People's Republic of China is a democracy, too. The people elect the People's Congress members. That makes it a representative democracy and therefore a democracy.

Is that your position?

 

[Bud_Spencer]

What Pecky fails to mention is that the Left is the plutocracy.

 

[pecksniff]

What Pecky fails to mention is that the Left is the plutocracy.

Not in terms of having the money.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

Not in terms of having the money.

In terms of using the money. Bezos, Gates, Soros, Steyer, Buffett...shall I go on?

 

[pecksniff]

In terms of using the money. Bezos, Gates, Soros, Steyer, Buffett...shall I go on?

They don't matter, politically, compared to the Koch networks, etc. And they ain't all that lefty, either.

 

[CornusKousa]

If you are saying that a culture that voted for it's "leaders" is a democracy

That is almost the literal definition of the term.

Democracy, literally, rule by the people. The term is derived from the Greek dēmokratia, which was coined from dēmos (“people”) and kratos (“rule”) in the middle of the 5th century BCE to denote the political systems then existing in some Greek city-states, notably Athens.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/democracy

d

emocracy noun

de·​moc·​ra·​cy | \ di-ˈmä-krə-sē \
plural democracies
Essential Meaning of democracy
1: a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

 

[CornusKousa]

The fact that it always gets its way is proof enough.

The nebulous boogeyman!!! LOL

It strains credulity that the majority of voters would want done the same things the rich want done.

Not at all, because not everyone is more concerned about others money more than their own and not everyone thinks the governments primary job is to create equal life outcomes for all.

They're called not authoritarian leftist.

 

[pecksniff]

Not at all, because not everyone is more concerned about others money more than their own and not everyone thinks the governments primary job is to create equal life outcomes for all.

A solid majority of Americans want single-payer health care. The plutocrats don't. Therefore, we don't get it.

 

[CornusKousa]

A solid majority of American want single-payer health care. The plutocrats don't. Therefore, we don't get it.

But A solid majority of states don't.

That's why we don't get it.

If you and the other psycho's would just not try to force 34+ states who don't want the shit, you could have it!!! NOTHING stoping California or NY from having a no ID needed, free everything for everyone who shows up with their hands out economy!!

Our system makes it very hard for control freaks to bully others... and easy to do your own thing.

No plutocracy needed.

 

[WillJ8787]

A solid majority of American want single-payer health care. The plutocrats don't. Therefore, we don't get it.

The solid majority in the majority of States. Even folks who say "they don't want it" when queried using non-partisan language usually are for it.

 

[LittleDixie]

That is almost the literal definition of the term.


https://www.britannica.com/topic/democracy

d
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

So, you believe that China is a democracy.

 

[CornusKousa]

So, you believe that China is a democracy.

If they elect their government, they are in fact a democracy.

And Xi appointed himself leader for life, that means his appointments are what they say they are and so on. So no, they aren't a democracy any more than N. Korea is a democratic republic. Even though there might be some democratic elements to their government.

That's not to say you can't have socialist shit holes that are democratic, Venezuela for example, those people straight up voted for that.

 

[LittleDixie]

If they elect their government, they are in fact a democracy.

And Xi appointed himself leader for life, that means his appointments are what they say they are and so on. So no, they aren't a democracy any more than N. Korea is a democratic republic. Even though there might be some democratic elements to their government.

That's not to say you can't have socialist shit holes that are democratic, Venezuela for example, those people straight up voted for that.

I guess my point is that if you stretch democracy so far as to cover China, doesn't that make "democracy" a meaningless distinction?

When I was younger, I remember hearing people talk about democracy with reverence, like it was this special thing that made the world just and fair and progressive. It wasn't old white men with crowns telling the rest of us what to do, it was all of us deciding together - and the hope was that the majority would be sensible enough to make good decisions.

But, representative democracy isn't that. Representative democracy is voting for the old white men with crowns. And the way things are in the US, we don't get to see anything beyond the 2 major parties - no one else gets news coverage.

And these politicians don't express the will of the majority. As I said, public support was behind gay marriage long before the politicians were. In fact, neither party really championed gay rights until the Supreme Court said that it was discriminatory to deny them. Pot is still federally illegal. There are lots of issues where the majority of the public wants legislators to take action, but they routinely do not. If that constitutes democracy, then democracy is just oligarchy with a ballot box.

If democracy does not always mean "RULE BY THE PEOPLE", then what good is the word?

 

[CornusKousa]

I guess my point is that if you stretch democracy so far as to cover China, doesn't that make "democracy" a meaningless distinction?

Considering China doesn't elect it's government, and thus is definitively NOT a democracy, yea it would.

When I was younger, I remember hearing people talk about democracy with reverence, like it was this special thing that made the world just and fair and progressive. It wasn't old white men with crowns telling the rest of us what to do, it was all of us deciding together - and the hope was that the majority would be sensible enough to make good decisions.

But, representative democracy isn't that. Representative democracy is voting for the old white men with crowns.

What kinda racist derp are you smoking?

Lots of not-white men without crowns hold office here.

And the way things are in the US, we don't get to see anything beyond the 2 major parties - no one else gets news coverage.

That's the media we support.

And these politicians don't express the will of the majority.

Then why does the majority keep voting them into office??

At some point the electorate has to take some responsibility for the fact that they voted for it. Look at who runs our country... a bunch of 70-90 something year old dementia patients who have been in office for decades.

Joe Biden first became a senator in 1972!!!! That's insane, he should have retired in the 90's.

As I said, public support was behind gay marriage long before the politicians were. In fact, neither party really championed gay rights until the Supreme Court said that it was discriminatory to deny them. Pot is still federally illegal. There are lots of issues where the majority of the public wants legislators to take action, but they routinely do not.

Yet we keep voting for them......again and again.

We rarely use our states to do things we want, people NEVER hold their states accountable for shit even though that's exactly where most progress or change is made.

If that constitutes democracy, then democracy is just oligarchy with a ballot box.

Yea.....all forms of democracy are that to some extent.

That's why it should be put in SHORT CHAINS by things like the Bill of Rights.

If democracy does not always mean "RULE BY THE PEOPLE", then what good is the word?

It does mean "rule by the people".... even if the people are a bunch of uneducated fucking morons who keep voting for the same ol' shit expecting something different.

 

[Taggy1]

I guess my point is that if you stretch democracy so far as to cover China, doesn't that make "democracy" a meaningless distinction?

When I was younger, I remember hearing people talk about democracy with reverence, like it was this special thing that made the world just and fair and progressive. It wasn't old white men with crowns telling the rest of us what to do, it was all of us deciding together - and the hope was that the majority would be sensible enough to make good decisions.

But, representative democracy isn't that. Representative democracy is voting for the old white men with crowns. And the way things are in the US, we don't get to see anything beyond the 2 major parties - no one else gets news coverage.

And these politicians don't express the will of the majority. As I said, public support was behind gay marriage long before the politicians were. In fact, neither party really championed gay rights until the Supreme Court said that it was discriminatory to deny them. Pot is still federally illegal. There are lots of issues where the majority of the public wants legislators to take action, but they routinely do not. If that constitutes democracy, then democracy is just oligarchy with a ballot box.

If democracy does not always mean "RULE BY THE PEOPLE", then what good is the word?

I see so called “democracy” being eroded every day by the so called elite

 

[LittleDixie]

Considering China doesn't elect it's government, and thus is definitively NOT a democracy, yea it would.

I'm sure that this is a surprise to the Chinese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China

At some point the electorate has to take some responsibility for the fact that they voted for it. Look at who runs our country... a bunch of 70-90 something year old dementia patients who have been in office for decades.

Joe Biden first became a senator in 1972!!!! That's insane, he should have retired in the 90's.

Yet we keep voting for them......again and again.

We rarely use our states to do things we want, people NEVER hold their states accountable for shit even though that's exactly where most progress or change is made.

Maybe the lesson we should learn is that centralized government is not the solution to our problems. Maybe it doesn't matter what party a person is, or how old they are or what their life experience is or even how good their intentions are. Maybe it would be better if we didn't look to "leaders" to tell us what to do and instead made our own decisions.

It does mean "rule by the people".... even if the people are a bunch of uneducated fucking morons who keep voting for the same ol' shit expecting something different.

I just think representative democracy is crude and out dated. Let the masses decide what they want and what they spend their money and effort on. Representatives just consolidate power so bribery becomes a viable strategy.

 

[CornusKousa]

I'm sure that this is a surprise to the Chinese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China

So I guess you think N. Korea is actually a democratic republic too??

Maybe the lesson we should learn is that centralized government is not the solution to our problems.

I learned that lesson some 20 years ago and have been advocating decentralization ever since.

Maybe it doesn't matter what party a person is, or how old they are or what their life experience is or even how good their intentions are. Maybe it would be better if we didn't look to "leaders" to tell us what to do and instead made our own decisions.

I agree.

I just think representative democracy is crude and out dated.

I agree, but we don't have anything better.

Let the masses decide what they want and what they spend their money and effort on.

Direct democracy?? LOL....that's been disaster every time it's been tried.

Representatives just consolidate power so bribery becomes a viable strategy.

They also keep the will of the people in check.

 

[CornusKousa]

I see so called “democracy” being eroded every day by the so called elite

How so?

 

[Bud_Spencer]

They don't matter, politically, compared to the Koch networks, etc. And they ain't all that lefty, either.

What horse shit. Bezos doesn't matter as owner of the WaPo, one of the two papers the rest of the MSM takes its cues from?

is there any bullshit you will not speak?

 

[LittleDixie]

So I guess you think N. Korea is actually a democratic republic too??

I doubt so. But, if the claim is that voting for representatives = democracy and people vote for representatives in a country... But, luckily I'm not making that claim.

Direct democracy?? LOL....that's been disaster every time it's been tried.

Really? When has it been tried?

They also keep the will of the people in check.

You mean under the boot of their betters.

 

[CornusKousa]

I doubt so.

Ok so then you understand why China isn't one either.

But, if the claim is that voting for representatives = democracy and people vote for representatives in a country... But, luckily I'm not making that claim.

So you're rejecting the definition of the word???

Really? When has it been tried?

Europe, several different times.

You mean under the boot of their betters.

That depends on who they elect.