Writing Exercise: You Can't Believe You're Going To Try This

[StillStunned]

Something tells me it might be time to bump this thread.

 

[YmaOHyd]

 

[PennyThompson]

Ahem...

Something tells you that it's time to bump the thread.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Something tells me it might be time to bump this thread.

Something tells me you should have left it where it was.

Having skimmed through a handful, I feel that most of them are essentially third person narration, merely putting in "you" instead of "Billy". There's lots of telling me the actions I'm supposedly doing, like a puppet, but none of the offerings persuade me that they're intimately, emotionally, inside my head.

For me, that's why second person rarely works. The person the author is trying to convince me is me is often really dull, does things and thinks things like a twat. There's no drilling down, no psychological persuasion that suspends my disbelief to think wow, this person really is interesting, I want to be him, doing these things you think I'm doing. I read them, and there's always a sense of an external narrator.

 

[StillStunned]

The person the author is trying to convince me is me is often really dull, does things and thinks things like a twat.

Well, if the shoe fits...

More seriously, earlier today I wrote this in another thread:

I think the thing about 2P is that it's hard to think of a story that *needs* 2P, and if it doesn't actually need it, then 1P or 3P will always be better.

I set out to write "You Know You Shouldn't" as a deliberate attempt to do something I despised. I even started a thread about it at the time (here). I wouldn't have done it if something hadn't clicked in my mind that it would be a good use for 2P.

"Into The Night" came about because I had an idea to use Bruce Springsteen's song "Night" as a cyberpunk setting. Only the lyrics of that song are in 2P. Again it clicked, but this time it was stream of consciousness and 2P at the same time. Those two style choices work together to create an immersive experience that I don't think I could achieve if either was done differently.

It's easy to write a snippet in 2P, but like you say there's often no need. Once in a while, though, an idea comes along and it just works. You could try it in 1P or 3P, but it wouldn't be the same. The trick is probably knowing which very rare story works best with 2P. There aren't many.

 

[TheLobster]

In those cases that 2P PoV seemingly does work, like in case of @StillStunned's "Into the Night", what I think really happens is that the reader is able to abstract away from the specific-you and into the general/universal-you.

In other words, the narrative is not actually addressed to the reader, but instead describes a kind of universal character archetype who is compelled by the circumstances of the story to act in the only possible way. He does X, because in this situation, "you do X", i.e., anyone would do X. That's why it works in ITN, where the world is bleak and dystopian and you gotta do what you gotta do.

In other words, the only way 2P PoV works is where you're performing a parlor trick with the English language itself.

 

[TerraNova61]

Here's my first attempt at 2P:

You were looking at him.

Just at that moment when things changed forever. You knew there was no going back now.

Your eyes fluttered, then clenched, the moan escaping your throat lasting just as long as it took for him to fill you.

On your back, legs that had only been opened for him until just now, spread wide as another man moved between them.

Your hands, that had only ever scratched up his back, now moved over another one, gripping and pulling him close. Your perfectly manicured red nails dug into the flesh of his ass as he thrust into you.

Then your eyes opened, but not to look at your love. No, they were solely fixed on the one now inside your body.

You, who’d promised your everlasting fidelity, just as he’d made the same promise, standing before the crowd of friends and family, now forsook that vow.

The solemn vows both were breaking at the same time.

In front of each other.

You saw slender hands wrapped around his neck, turning his head from you to gaze down at her.

The woman’s smile seemed to captivate him as he moved into the same position as the one above you, and you saw her face glow as he slipped between her lips, opening her as he felt the inside of another woman for the first time since the pledge you both made to each other.

She moaned just as you had a moment before, just at the moment of penetration.

The moment you and he both shared yourselves with them.

And now, that friendship has irrevocably changed.

For better or worse, only time would tell.

In the meantime, all four bodies moved in the ancient rhythm.

Just as you’d wanted and asked him for.

 

[Katie_Mae]

Something tells me it might be time to bump this thread.

Interesting you bump it now as I recently finished a second-person pov story.

Only, after writing a whole damn (but admittedly very short) story, I still don't know what second person is. I mean, obviously understand the basics, but not the nuance of what makes it "actually" second person or the finer points of how it works with different narrative depths etc.

I wrote it very quickly from a story prompt idea... that was actually my story prompt. I posted it as a "I had this idea inspired by xyz, but I never wrote it, maybe someone else wants to..." and then I wrote it.

 

[ElectricBlue]

There aren't many.

True that. I think I've read one, in my lifetime. Can't recall what it was, so not memorable at all.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Here's my first attempt at 2P:

You were looking at him.

Just at that moment when things changed forever. You knew there was no going back now.

Your eyes fluttered, then clenched, the moan escaping your throat lasting just as long as it took for him to fill you.

Writing it in past tense immediately throws it out to an external narrator.

For it to work, second person has to be present tense, I reckon, for it to have the slightest chance of working. You've got to put me into "now", with the immediacy, no way to escape from what's happening now, or is going to happen next.

 

[millamomud]

You want it. I know you want it. You went to great lengths to tie me up. You fixed my arms above my head and put the red ballgag in. You spread my legs with that damned bar and put the clamps on my nipples, the mean ones, with sharp little teeth. And then you spanked my ass just enough to make me drip and to make it stick.

Now you left me hanging, sulking in the bliss the magic wand you strapped to my leg is giving me. Of course you left it on the lowest level. You mean bastard.

Now you’re sitting on that armchair, legs crossed, sipping your whisky, watching intently how I suffer. You know how much I love that white shirt with those red suspenders. You went out of your way to turn me on, not just with that paddle and those clamps, but also the visit to the barbershop, the trim of your beard, and the side cut that gives you just the edge.

I feel the orgasm build up, but you don’t care. I know I can’t get over the edge on my own, and you know it as well. I see the sardonic grin on your face and hope you’ll put me out of my misery soon. I know you want to, but I… I need to. I don’t know how much I can take anymore.

I’m moaning in my gag, my nipples throbbing, my ass stinging and my eyes pleading. And you. You’re just sitting there. Sipping your whisky, watching me suffer. God, how I wish you would finally fuck me. What I would give to feel you inside me. Just make it stop and fuck me finally. I’m ready.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Not a hundred percent clean, but I did my best:

You want it. I know you want it. You went to great lengths to tie me up. You fixed my arms above my head and put the red ballgag in. You spread my legs with that damned bar and put the clamps on my nipples, the mean ones, with sharp little teeth. And then you spanked my ass just enough to make me drip and to make it stick.

Now you left me hanging, sulking in the bliss the magic wand you strapped to my leg is giving me. Of course you left it on the lowest level. You mean bastard.

Now you’re sitting on that armchair, legs crossed, sipping your whisky, watching intently how I suffer. You know how much I love that white shirt with those red suspenders. You went out of your way to turn me on, not just with that paddle and those clamps, but also the visit to the barbershop, the trim of your beard, and the side cut that gives you just the edge.

I feel the orgasm build up, but you don’t care. I know I can’t get over the edge on my own, and you know it as well. I see the sardonic grin on your face and hope you’ll put me out of my misery soon. I know you want to, but I… I need to. I don’t know how much I can take anymore.

I’m moaning in my gag, my nipples throbbing, my ass stinging and my eyes pleading. And you. You’re just sitting there. Sipping your whisky, watching me suffer. God, how I wish you would finally fuck me. What I would give to feel you inside me. Just make it stop and fuck me finally. I’m ready.

That's a first person narrative, not second.

 

[millamomud]

That's a first person narrative, not second.

I think you confuse point of view with focalization

 

[ElectricBlue]

I think you confuse point of view with focalization

You're describing the action with "I" and "me". That's first person.

Second person is wholly about "you", the object of the narrative - that's why it's called second person.

 

[YmaOHyd]

In the bit above, the see-er and the speaker are the same person. I does the feeling ("What I would give for..."). I does the seeing ("I see the sardonic grin on your face"). I describes actions that are occurring to them, actions taken by you. The feelings and motivations of you are speculated at by I. It's a first-person narrative with an internal focalization.

Contrast that with Welcome to Your Authentic Indian Experience.

He clears his throat. Stands.

“It’s time for you to go,” he says. “I promised Theresa you’d be gone, and I’ve got to get to work soon.” Something about him seems to expand, to take up the space you once occupied. Until you feel small, superfluous.

“Did you ever think,” he says, his voice thoughtful, his head tilted to study you like a strange foreign body, “that maybe this is my experience, and you’re the tourist here?”

“This is my house,” you protest, but you’re not sure you believe it now. Your head hurts. The coffee in your hand is already cold. How long have you been sitting here? Your thoughts blur to histories, your words become nothing more than forgotten facts and half-truths. Your heart, a dusty repository for lost loves and desires, never realized.

“Not anymore,” he says.

You does the actions, the reader sees through the eyes of you, feels the conflicts and motivations of you. Internal focalization, second-person narrative.

 

[millamomud]

You're describing the action with "I" and "me". That's first person.

That's factually wrong. Second person is about the addressee being the subject of the narrated action, not the object.

Second person is wholly about "you", the object of the narrative - that's why it's called second person.

No, it's about the subject of the narrative, not the object.

Point of view = who the story addresses as the acting subject
Focalization = whose sensations/thoughts we inhabit

Second-person POV isn’t defined by eliminating "I," it’s defined by addressing a "you" who performs the central actions. Internal reactions of the narrator don't change POV, they only define focalization.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think you confuse point of view with focalization

I don't think so. I think ElectricBlue is correct. The primary point of view in this passage is the point of view of the narrator/first person who relates the story. Your passage is not just told with that person's voice. It reveals, primarily, the first person narrator's internal views and feelings about what is happening. It's a bit fuzzy because the first person narrator takes liberties by purporting to share what "you" is thinking and feeling, but I think the reader can chalk this up to familiarity and educated guesswork on the narrator's part. But I read this passage as one of first person point of view and somewhat ambivalent focalization.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Second-person POV isn’t defined by eliminating "I," it’s defined by addressing a "you" who performs the central actions. Internal reactions of the narrator don't change POV, they only define focalization.

Your definition is contrary to any grammatical definition you'll find. Go take a random look on page one of any search engine.

First person = I, me, my, etc... Your example is full of those. You're the narrator, addressing another person, but you're not writing as that other person.

Second = you, and only you. The narration must, in effect, jump minds. You're trying to persuade the reader that they are that person. That's where it constantly fails - no, I'm not doing any of those things you describe. I'm sitting here, drinking coffee and it's raining outside.

Third = independent narrator, describing what the characters are doing: he, she, they, Billy, Joey.

 

[YmaOHyd]

But I read this passage as one of first person point of view and somewhat ambivalent focalization.

I think you can read the focalization ambiguity as a result of the inherent unreliability in a first-person narrative. And I think the biggest tell that this is just straight first-person without any second-person elements is this:

He wants it. I know he wants it. He went to great lengths to tie me up. He fixed my arms above my head and put the red ballgag in. He spread my legs with that damned bar and put the clamps on my nipples, the mean ones, with sharp little teeth. And then he spanked my ass just enough to make me drip and to make it stick.

Now he’s left me hanging, sulking in the bliss the magic wand he strapped to my leg is giving me. Of course he left it on the lowest level. Mean bastard.

Now he’s sitting on that armchair, legs crossed, sipping your whisky, watching intently how I suffer. He knows how much I love that white shirt with those red suspenders. He went out of his way to turn me on, not just with that paddle and those clamps, but also the visit to the barbershop, the trim of his beard, and the side cut that gives him just the edge.

I feel the orgasm build up, but he doesn’t care. I know I can’t get over the edge on my own, and he knows it as well. I see the sardonic grin on his face and hope he’ll put me out of my misery soon. I know he wants to, but I… I need to. I don’t know how much I can take anymore.

I’m moaning in my gag, my nipples throbbing, my ass stinging and my eyes pleading. And he. He’s just sitting there. Sipping his whisky, watching me suffer. God, how I wish he would finally fuck me. What I would give to feel him inside me. Just make it stop and fuck me finally. I’m ready.

Nothing changes about this story by swapping 'he' in for 'you.' The emotion is the same, the feelings are the same, the headspace, eyeballs and speaker are all the same. 'You' here is essentially just operating as a generic third-person pronoun. Where it starts getting funky is when you mess with the I:

I want it. You know I want it. I went to great lengths to tie you up. I fixed your arms above your head and put the red ballgag in. I spread your legs with that damned bar and put the clamps on your nipples, the mean ones, with sharp little teeth. And then I spanked your ass just enough to make you drip and to make it stick.

Now I’ve left you hanging, sulking in the bliss the magic wand I strapped to your leg is giving you. Of course I left it on the lowest level. Mean bastard.

Now I’m sitting on that armchair, legs crossed, sipping my whisky, watching intently how you suffer. I know how much you love that white shirt with those red suspenders. I went out of my way to turn you on, not just with that paddle and those clamps, but also the visit to the barbershop, the trim of my beard, and the side cut that gives me just the edge.

You feel the orgasm build up, but I don’t care. You know you can’t get over the edge on your own, and I know it as well. You see the sardonic grin on my face and hope I’ll put you out of your misery soon. You know I want to, but you… you need to. You don’t know how much you can take anymore.

You’re moaning in your gag, your nipples throbbing, your ass stinging and your eyes pleading. And I. I’m just sitting there. Sipping my whisky, watching you suffer. God, how you wish I would finally fuck you. What you would give to feel me inside you. Just make it stop and fuck you finally. You’re ready.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think you can read the focalization ambiguity as a result of the inherent unreliability in a first-person narrative. And I think the biggest tell that this is just straight first-person without any second-person elements is this:

Nothing changes about this story by swapping 'he' in for 'you.' The emotion is the same, the feelings are the same, the headspace, eyeballs and speaker are all the same. 'You' here is essentially just operating as a generic third-person pronoun. Where it starts getting funky is when you mess with the I:

I agree. I think your substitution drives home the point.

 

[millamomud]

I don't think so. I think ElectricBlue is correct. The primary point of view in this passage is the point of view of the narrator/first person who relates the story. Your passage is not just told with that person's voice. It reveals, primarily, the first person narrator's internal views and feelings about what is happening. It's a bit fuzzy because the first person narrator takes liberties by purporting to share what "you" is thinking and feeling, but I think the reader can chalk this up to familiarity and educated guesswork on the narrator's part. But I read this passage as one of first person point of view and somewhat ambivalent focalization.

The distinction I'm making is the one used in narratology since Genette:

Point of view is defined by who the narrative addresses as the acting subject.
In my snippet, all major actions are performed by you ("you tie me up," "you sit and watch").
That's the defining feature of second-person POV.

Narrator voice and focalization are separate layers.
My piece uses a first-person narrator's internal sensations ("I feel…") as the experiential lens, but that doesn’t change the POV. It only determines focalization.

Your definition is contrary to any grammatical definition you'll find. Go take a random look on page one of any search engine.

First person = I, me, my, etc... Your example is full of those. You're the narrator, addressing another person, but you're not writing as that other person.

Second = you, and only you. The narration must, in effect, jump minds. You're trying to persuade the reader that they are that person. That's where it constantly fails - no, I'm not doing any of those things you describe. I'm sitting here, drinking coffee and it's raining outside.

Third = independent narrator, describing what the characters are doing: he, she, they, Billy, Joey.

The POV based on grammar labels you're using are valid for simple English instructions, but I'm using the narratology ones where POV is determined by the acting subject and narrative address, and focalization determines who experiences the sensations.

Both systems exist, which is why we’re talking past each other. I'm fine agreeing that we might be using different definitions.

 

[millamomud]

Your definition is contrary to any grammatical definition you'll find. Go take a random look on page one of any search engine.

Random look on Webster, as found on google

 

[YmaOHyd]

I mean narratologically speaking Genette doesn't acknowledge a second person; his distinction is between presence and absence and participation and nonparticipation. Second person narrative is indistinguishable from first under this framework. I also think you're misunderstanding action. Tying the I, using the vibrator -- that's just stuff. The major action is feeling, and the I does all the feeling. And if you look at that Webster screenie, in second person, the key here is that the narrator describes the reader's actions, thoughts and background. We have the thoughts of I, not of you, except as speculated by I.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Both systems exist, which is why we’re talking past each other. I'm fine agreeing that we might be using different definitions.

Yes, I chose the simpler path, because this is Lit, after all .

I see @YmaOHyd has also zoomed in on the thoughts of the "reader", which is what I was sorta kinda trying to get to. For second person to work, I reckon the text has to absolutely persuade me that the thoughts being told me (as the reader) are mine and only mine. That's a challenge, to get me to suspend disbelief long enough to be someone else.

 

[HelenL]

My last-but-one story was 2P For Reasons. I'm not about to try that again.