Women dialog

[BlackSnake]

I tried getting some ideas for women dialog by paying attention to women talking around me.

That has to be the hardest thing in the world to write. I listened, I think, and all I heard was....nothing. Does it take special hearing?

I just scrapped it and wrote that the group of women were engulfed in a very symbolic and expressive conversation filled with grins and giggles.

 

[cloudy]

I tried getting some ideas for women dialog by paying attention to women talking around me.

That has to be the hardest thing in the world to write. I listened, I think, and all I heard was....nothing. Does it take special hearing?

I just scrapped it and wrote that the group of women were engulfed in a very symbolic and expressive conversation filled with grins and giggles.

That gave me a good laugh, thanks!

Women communicate as much with what's not said as they do with what they actually say.

The lift of an eyebrow, the tilt of their heads....my first husband thought it was the funniest thing he'd ever seen once he realized what was going on.

I think it's one of those things that you have to be a native speaker of the language to actually understand.

Sorry.

 

[Liar]

Uh, I dunno. I just write a dialog and put women's names on the characters. Niether men nor women seems to complain.

Difference in individual characters far outweighs difference in gender groups.

#L

 

[BlackSnake]

My attempt was to write the dialog for four women having a conversation about sex. Even sitting right there listening, I couldn't capture enough in my mind to write it down on paper.

I just didn't/couldn't get it. I mean, I understood what they were talking about, but I can't describe it. Just lost in translation.

 

[minsue]

My attempt was to write the dialog for four women having a conversation about sex. Even sitting right there listening, I couldn't capture enough in my mind to write it down on paper.

I just didn't/couldn't get it. I mean, I understood what they were talking about, but I can't describe it. Just lost in translation.

Men! Harumph!



At least you tried, sweetie.

 

[BlackSnake]

Here's the thing.

Men and women talk differently and choose different phrases to say the same thing.

I noticed that some women make a speech out of what I could say in three words or less. Then there are times that an entire conversation are had by women without a single word being spoken.

The conversation should have been about coming up with a way that all of the women could get one guy to sleep with all of them, and what each of them would do with him in bed.

 

[lucky-E-leven]

It'd be really easy to respond to this thread and be silly, but I've noticed the same thing and I'm female. It's true, BlackSnake. Women express themselves much different than men. I feel pretty confident in writing dialogue for anyone, but never really sat and thought about what a challenge it might be for a man to write female dialogue convincingly.

I suppose it really depends on the topic being discussed by those women, but if it is something like sex where each is giving their experience and opinions, the conversation could seem like Greek to anyone not directly in the circle.

The thing I've noticed when talking sex with friends of mine (away from Lit, mind you) is that there is a huge variance on the way each woman perceives things. Her upbringing and self-image have much to do with the way she expresses her views. I think most guys enjoy the freedom of telling it like it is because it's rarely taboo to do so, which isn't a bad thing, but there is a huge difference among a group of women.

I have friends that refuse to say the words 'blow job' and prefer to say B.J. and then giggle like idiots at their perceived boldness. I also have friends that are quite comfortable in saying they deep throated their man the night before without even batting an eye. The big difference here (different from men's converstions) is that when the deep throat girl is in the presence of the B.J. Giggle girl, she will tone it down a notch most likely.

Most women are in constant competition with one another an even friends will play off of one another in a conversation, all the while carefully remaining in the unspoken parameters of what's acceptable to admit to and not admit to.

For example, In a group of four women where two are best friends, the third is pretty close to both of them and the fourth is only an acquaintance, there will be plenty shared that is not actually spoken. The two best friends will say things that sound normal to everyone listening but convey a much deeper meaning to the one that knows them best. Therefore, there are actually three or four conversations going on in one.

I find it fascinating and am usually astute enough to pick up on the sideways glances, little touches of one's arm when a seemingly off-handed comment is made, words that sound out of place but still work (code) and the inevitable subject change that is so smooth that the acquaintance and possibly even the third friend don't notice, but the best friend is clued in that a strange vibe has surfaced and it is not beneficial to travel that road of discussion at that point in time.

For guys, in my opinion, the attitude toward sex is much more casual. It's okay to pop out and say you got great head, or your girlfriend finally let you fulfill your anal-bead fantasy, or whatever. It's easy because it's something you all relate to and can be excited, proud, jealous...whatever...about but each person understands exactly what the jist is. You got laid! You're a stud, instead of a dirty slut.

*sigh* If it were more acceptable for women to be honest about what intensely sexual creatures they are and not be looked down on for it, I think you'd find the conversation a bit more free flowing, understandable, fun and possibly even educational.

We're almost all raging sluts deep down, but decades of social conditioning has got us in the habit of whispering tidbits without really coming out and saying, "Yeah, I fucked him. We twisted it up ten ways from Sunday and I was so sore the next day that I had trouble walking any other way than on my tiptoes."

I know this goes more the way of explanation than solution, but I'd be happy to help with that female conversation if you still have the urge to write it.

~lucky

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I've found once you strip away the stereotypical expectations of male and female conversation. We all talk quite similarly. There are nuances that add flavor, but if you just write something straightly human, you won't hear any complaints about how it doesn't fit. Just write a character, not worry so much on if they're fitting into a stereotype. It will work. Trust me.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Black Snake,

Writing a four-way conversation is a real chore under any circumstance. If the characters are female and the subject personal, that chore becomes a back breaking labor. However, I can see where you need something like the four-way conversation. If possible, maybe the POV character could talk to the other three one at a time. One of those conversations could be extensive with the other two being much shorter. I did that once with a four-couples group story I've never posted on Lit.

IMHO, Cloudy and Lucky are right. In fact Lucky's post strikes me as the start of a great "how-to" piece. The only thing I'd add is that females who are very close friends, perhaps even relatives, can sometimes drop the "social shields" that are normally maintained, especially if the subject isn't men.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[lucky-E-leven]

Not entirely related, but close enough, is the flip side of men and women's conversations about sex. I was talking to minsue and she pointed out that she was pretty open when speaking about sex and that most men were surprised and baffled at her candor. I've run into the same thing many times, as well.

The point she made next is totally valid, though, and might help a little. She commented that many of the men she's spoken with have been astounded by the things that women do share. Beyond that, they are further amazed at the detail women go into when sharing such things.

I think her statement was something to the effect of:

Man: Yeah, I fucked her.

Woman: Yeah, I fucked him, and we did it this way for this long, and that way for that long, and then he touched me here, and then I licked him here, and...

I'd say this is quite common between very close friends where the social stigma of your sluttiness is removed by the fact that lesser friends could misunderstand/judge (or just not giving a shit and being comfortable enough with that person to know it doesn't matter to them).

Lucifer Carroll made a good point that writing along character lines will always translate, and Rumple's suggestion to break the conversation into smaller groups where all opinions are still expressed, seemed sound to me.

I also had the thought that, depending on your audience, writing it the way you heard it could really contribute to the story. If your audience is mostly male, then they would most likely be able to relate to the ambiguity achieved by relaying the women's convo the way it came across to you. An added bonus would be that, if done well, your female readership will see things through a man's eyes and be clued in to the neato mosquito way they share so much and the boys are left wondering...

muahahahaha

~lucky

p.s. Sorry for the maniacal laughter. It's late (early ) here in the Lone Star State and Lucky's brain is tired. I might be back to edit in the a.m.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Don't feel the need to conform the characters to an expectation. Especially if the characters are being private in a public space. If you'll notice human beings. When they are together in public, they often drown out most of the surroundings and not notice that what they're saying is being overheard. When I used to get into long philosophical debates with my best friend Jon, we always used to remark on how a tagger-along behind us would laugh at the bizarrity and depth of the conversation. The tagger wasn't a meant participant or audience, but he heard anyway. Thus scenes that may seem private can be spoken in public.

Furthermore, it may just be because I only befriend freaks, geeks, and weirdos but there are very few universal stereotypes even about sex. I had a brilliant female friend in high school who was famed and feared for her in-depth knowledge about sexuality that always left the misogynistic men emasculated. Also, most women have had candid talks with me about their sexuality and their horniness because they know I won't get all lecherous about it. On the flip coin, I've known men who were very guarded about their sexuality and didn't want to brag their conquests. A friend of mine in wrestling (they only non-prig) made me swear not to tell anyone he was a virgin (he only told me because the woman he had "done" was also one of my friends). Combine that with the millions of bizarrities and tastes and insanities of all of them, the multiple gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered lesbians (great gal) friends and acquantinces I've had over the years, well...let's just say that stereotypes don't last long in that company.

Thus, eccentric characters matter. Make them guarded, uptight, slutty (boy and girl definition thereof), stereotypical (or trying desperately to be), psychotic, drunk, alien, whatever and don't worry about making it seem genuinely feminine or masculine.

Also remember, the better friends the characters are, the more frighteningly honest they are with each other. To their best friends, guys will admit to liking Air Supply sometimes, and women will admit to banging the pool boy while the husband is away banging the secretary. It's all about company and interaction of the eccentric characters.

All right, I'm going to stop talking before I start to sound like one of those Literature professors with the wild white hair, intellectual glasses, and a face that resonates with a desire to spend the day half into a bottle rather than deal with smarmy assed kids.

 

[Marsipanne]

Dialogue is what I enjoy writing the most. I especially enjoy writing confusing dialogue which makes sense once you read the whole story.

Me and my friends have decided that it's nigh impossible for someone to enter our ranks. First of all, we developed a sort of sign language. We also have our own slang and in-jokes that nobody else will get short of 30-min explanations. My friend Clare once even invented a language that she spoke in (she's a language buff) to her friends so that nobody else could understand. Mind you, we're teetering on the weirdo edge of society, but this is probably an extremity of what some women do. One way to make dialogue more realistic is to simply make it individualised, or individualised among a group of people.

 

[cloudy]

The point she made next is totally valid, though, and might help a little. She commented that many of the men she's spoken with have been astounded by the things that women do share. Beyond that, they are further amazed at the detail women go into when sharing such things.

I think her statement was something to the effect of:

Man: Yeah, I fucked her.

Woman: Yeah, I fucked him, and we did it this way for this long, and that way for that long, and then he touched me here, and then I licked him here, and...

I'd say this is quite common between very close friends where the social stigma of your sluttiness is removed by the fact that lesser friends could misunderstand/judge (or just not giving a shit and being comfortable enough with that person to know it doesn't matter to them).

I'd forgotten all about this! Thanks, Lucky.

I've had several close guy friends through the years - close enough that my girlfriends and I included them in our conversations about everything, including sex. It never failed that the guy would comment to me later on the details women shared, rather than just a dry statement, and what an eye-opener it was for them. One made a remark along the lines that he'd always heard that cliche about men's locker room conversations, but that women put men to shame!

 

[Lovepotion69]

I have to male friends who refuse to let me get too close to their gf's just because they were hit with the realization that women TALK. LOL They're both "scared" what a female friend might tell the current gf about him.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I have to male friends who refuse to let me get too close to their gf's just because they were hit with the realization that women TALK. LOL They're both "scared" what a female friend might tell the current gf about him.

It's more likrly they're afraid what the gf might tell you. Most men have a superman complex about how they perform in the sack that they fail to measure up to but the gf usually refrains from pointing out to them. Pointing it out to one of his gurl-friends instead, however is fair game.

This is the most likely case unless you have a habit for telling embarrassing stories about a friend to their gfs.

But yes, sterotype men are so funny. Very uncomfortable dealing with a world that doesn't revolve around them in a good and happy light. That's why I avoid them like the plague.

 

[Guest]

not much to add here ... but my opinon..

i am always amazed when i read a story that is from a female perspective, written by a man. there are subtle nuances which are sometimes tell tale signs that the author is a man, such as the description of sex (as lucky said, women just tell it differently).

recently, i read a story about lesbians, written by a man and i was very surprised with how well the entire tale was told in female voice. i was delighted and the story in my mind is a rarity.

from my point of view, i have to disagree that you can just write dialog and then assign it to characters regardless of sex. i believe female and male voice differs, often just slightly.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I believe rather strongly that spoken dialogue is not the same as good written dialogue. In other words, copying down what people say verbatim in conversation simply will not give you good dialogue in print. There's far too much non-verbal communication, broken syntax, unfinished sentences, and hemming and hawing in transcribed speech for it to make any sense as dialogue.

If you look at any transcriptions of actual speech, you'll see this immediately. Even in transcriptions of court proceedings, where people are choosing their words carefully and using their best grammar, it's still often hard to tell what they're talking about.

As in so much in fiction, the key is not to make your dialogue authentic, but to make it believable. You don't want it to be real; you want it to seem real. There's a big difference.

Rumple's right in that writing extended dialogue for more than 2 people is difficult, mainly because of the need to constantly explain who's talking. It becomes a forest of "he said/she saids". There are tricks to avoid that, but I don't think that's what you're asking about.

---dr.M.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

from my point of view, i have to disagree that you can just write dialog and then assign it to characters regardless of sex. i believe female and male voice differs, often just slightly.

I meant it in terms of character planning. You have a woman, then you have the society she lives in and how that's affected her, her past relationships, her circle of friends, and her opinion and ties to the people she's talking to. All of these things make her different from all other men and women. As far as characters, it's about breaking free of stereotypes. An eccentric will sound real because most of us are eccentric. As far as voice, I was referred to as a woman on the feminism thread for a while because of my opinions. The gap is narrower than most think.

The slightness is the key. Differentiate. Consider the sex in it, but don't make it a key factor. Too many stories out here read like a Biff and Tiffany sterotype fest. The woman is chaste-esque but a little slutty, emotional and easily willed into sex, whereas the man is strong, obsessed with lust, and basic in thought patterns. Thes stories suck almost all the times. The more complex the characters are, the hard it is to really differentiate them. If you seem a little off, it's an eccentric twist. I've known terse women. I've known men that can talk for an hour about nothing (hell Strom Thurmond was famous for it). Anyway, that's my little spiel. You're right on the slight, but it is really slight.

 

[Liar]

not much to add here ... but my opinon..

i am always amazed when i read a story that is from a female perspective, written by a man. there are subtle nuances which are sometimes tell tale signs that the author is a man, such as the description of sex (as lucky said, women just tell it differently).

recently, i read a story about lesbians, written by a man and i was very surprised with how well the entire tale was told in female voice. i was delighted and the story in my mind is a rarity.

from my point of view, i have to disagree that you can just write dialog and then assign it to characters regardless of sex. i believe female and male voice differs, often just slightly.

Well, that was not entirely what I meant. There are differences between men and women in the way they talk and the things they talk about. But honestly, the difference in language and attitude beween the genders is a fraction of the differences between other barriers of culture and background. Urban vs rural, bus drivers vs nurses, 20 year olds versus 50 year olds, education, wealth and cultural background... those things have in my experience a much greater impact onhow a comversation might sound than wether the participants are male, female or a mixed crowd.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I have to male friends who refuse to let me get too close to their gf's just because they were hit with the realization that women TALK. LOL They're both "scared" what a female friend might tell the current gf about him.

Everyone knows that women don't take sex as seriously as men. That's the secret of a woman's power over a man.

---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

Well, that was not entirely what I meant. There are differences between men and women in the way they talk and the things they talk about. But honestly, the difference in language and attitude beween the genders is a fraction of the differences between other barriers of culture and background. Urban vs rural, bus drivers vs nurses, 20 year olds versus 50 year olds, education, wealth and cultural background... those things have in my experience a much greater impact onhow a comversation might sound than wether the participants are male, female or a mixed crowd.

and i agree with what you are saying.. thanks for the clear up.

 

[neonlyte]

My thought on this is that women talk differently, it is the pauses, innuendo's and sign language that makes the difference, that is very difficult to convey by writing.

I have written three pieces recently all from a female perspective, two are posted under 'neonlyte'. In the first, The Blow Job, it is written as a woman thinking whilst performing a blow job, it has a received a mixed response, 31 votes rated at 3.80. All of the feedback assumed I was a woman; the singular criticism was that it was not long enough, the story, not the dick.

The second piece is a lesbian affair, two women embarking upon a relationship. Votes 108, rating 4.38. All of the feedback bar one who knows my gender assumes me to be female. Total feedback for the two stories is 13 PC's and 24 e-mails.

The purpose of this exercise was to establish a convincing female voice for a novel, the second chapter is almost entirely female/female dialogue.

The first chapter of the novel is solely dialogue running some 10k words, throughout this chapter, the identities of the two characters is not revealed, the conversation takes place between a blind person and a therapist. Three people have read the first chapter, two are posters here, each correctly identified the male and female characters simply from their language.

I conclude that you can 'write' female and male language to lead the reader along the path you wish to take them.

NL

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I hate writing dialogue period.

In this case I will say I admire your courage BS, but question your sanity

-Colly

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I conclude that you can 'write' female and male language to lead the reader along the path you wish to take them.

NL

I'm not saying you can't write decidely male and female language. I'm just saying that with a dynamic character it's not always neccesary. I have written males and females many times that both sexes have found satisfactorily convincing and I've written before where I've been confused for a woman. Often on this site before I got my AV. It's all in how you present it and the emotions behind. Personally I like making my characters more human than decidely one gender or the other in thought patterns because its more interesting that way. I just make sure I translate whatever trends they do express into their style and choices. Consistency is the key above all else.

Damn have I been lecturing on this thread or what? I'm going to have one of those wispy beards and "oh god not another student" grimaces if I don't watch myself.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Here's the thing.

Men and women talk differently and choose different phrases to say the same thing.

I noticed that some women make a speech out of what I could say in three words or less. Then there are times that an entire conversation are had by women without a single word being spoken.

The conversation should have been about coming up with a way that all of the women could get one guy to sleep with all of them, and what each of them would do with him in bed.

There are lots of books (non-fiction) about the differences in the way men and women talk. If you really want to capture authentic dialoge, I would recomend reading a few of these books from your local library (I'm always plugging the library)

You might learn more about the ways that you comunicate too.