Will all matter that has passed through the body be resurrected?

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Jeez, sometimes you go weeks without finding something cool to talk about.


When Maureen and Michael Pekich buried their son following his 1996 drowning, they believed the 29-year-old's heart was inside his body. A few weeks later, though, the Pekiches received an autopsy report that said the heart had been removed for transplantation purposes.

Maureen Pekich said she had given the Center for Organ Recovery and Education -- often called CORE -- permission to recover Michael Jr.'s heart valves, provided the valves were taken through an incision that she knew would be made during the autopsy. But it was critically important to her, Pekich said, that the heart remain in the body for burial.

The lawsuit is partly about whether CORE honored a promise to the family. But it's also about a much broader issue that contributes to the chronic national shortage of organs being donated for transplant: Many times, relatives of someone who dies believe they can't donate organs because a dead person's body should stay intact.

"My son's not complete," Pekich said. "To me, the heart is the soul of the being. That was my son, that was his being."

Her husband, Michael Pekich, added, "If there is such a thing as coming back in an afterlife or something like that, I believe that would be a consideration."

Among those who refuse to donate a relative's organs, such visceral reactions are a powerful force, said Laura Siminoff, a biomedical ethicist at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine in Cleveland.

Sometimes the emotional attachments are linked to particular organs. Siminoff has completed research showing that about 20 percent of the people who agree to donate put conditions on their donations -- usually that the heart and the corneas not be donated. That's because many people still view the eyes as the "window to the soul" and see the heart as the emotional center of the body.

"It's a very common reason for refusing donation -- feelings about body integrity, fears about appearance at an open-casket funeral and feelings that it's degrading a corpse," said Arthur L. Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. "Some people have emotional attachments to things like the heart. ... It's one of the things that's hard to tease out about resistance to organ donation."


Resurrection ideas

Often, strong feelings about the sanctity of the body take on a religious cast.

Joseph A. Marsaglia Jr., associate dean of faculty and students at the Pittsburgh Institute of Mortuary Science, said many Roman Catholics express that concern, which could stem from the church's past opposition to cremation.

"Christ rose from the dead as a whole body and therefore for us to be resurrected it has to be a whole body," he said.

But that's not the church's position, said the Rev. Ronald Lawler, a Catholic moral theologian for the Diocese of Pittsburgh. The Roman Catholic Church has never said intact burial is necessary for resurrection, he said.

"The church has been constantly aware that lots of people will be buried without all their parts and organs," Lawler said. "People have been blown up in battle, cut up in machines. ... The Lord knows how to replace everything."

The church believes people should respect the body and bury it with great attention, he said. But the church also believes it's an act of love and charity to donate an organ in proper circumstances.

The Catholic Church even accepts cremation, so long as it "does not demonstrate a denial of faith in the resurrection of the body," according to the church's catechism. The church had opposed cremation in the past, Lawler said, because the act was sometimes seen as a rebuke to Catholicism.

Jews and Orthodox Christians have even more stringent regulations than Catholics about how bodies should be handled, but those groups as well as the vast majority of faith-based communities support organ donation.

Still, donation touches on an anxiety about fragmentation of bodies that Christians have debated for hundreds of years.

Religious writers throughout the Middle Ages concerned themselves with the relationships between fragmented body parts and the resurrection of the whole person, according to Caroline Walker Bynum, a religion scholar at Columbia University in New York.


A medieval connection

In her 1992 book "Fragmentation and Redemption," Bynum describes the 12th-century writings of Peter Lombard, who asks a series of questions about what happens to bodies in the afterlife. They include:

What age, height and sex will Christians have in their resurrected bodies?

Will all matter that has passed through the body be resurrected?

What happens to hair and fingernails that have been cut throughout life -- do they return to the body once it is resurrected?

Resurrection was seen as a triumph of the whole over the part, Bynum writes, since the body and person would again be made whole. While this was the religious ideal, there were still fears about fragmentation.

The bloody fragments of prisoners who had been drawn and quartered were displayed on castle walls, an act that symbolized their eternal damnation. Lepers were shunned, in part because their disfigured bodies were thought to represent a sort of living death.

A seeming exception to this loathing of dismemberment were the body parts of saints, which were often divided and placed in shrines across Europe, creating the focal points for medieval pilgrims. In some cases, the bodies of saints were reported not to have decayed, which promoted the popular belief that a saint's body was protected after death in a way that a less holy person's was not.

The miracle of this "cult of saints," according to Bynum, is that these fragmented parts were both holy and synonymous with the whole.

At the root of all this interest in the body was the medieval conviction that personhood was inextricably linked with an individual's body -- an idea that many people today seem to accept.

"While no one thinks that a self is only a body, recent discussion seems to find it difficult to account for identity without some sort of physical continuity," Bynum writes.

Keeping bodies intact is important in some Asian cultures, where organ donation is seen as tampering with the soul.

Organ procurement groups in California are working with immigrant Koreans, Japanese and traditional Hmongs to get a better understanding of their donation attitudes.

Von Roebuck, spokesperson for the California Transplant Donor Network in San Francisco, said donation rates among some of those groups are low, but the numbers change among younger immigrants.


Other cultures' views

Not all cultures have had concerns about bodies being buried with all their parts, said Alan McPherron, a professor emeritus of archeology at the University of Pittsburgh. Retrieving the skull of a loved one, for example, has been a common practice in many cultures.

"Sometimes people would bury the body, wait for soft parts to go away and then dig up the skull to keep," said McPherron, who during his career regularly taught a course at Pitt called "The Archeologist Looks at Death."

Ancient Egyptians placed importance on having an intact mummified body because the soul was thought to leave during the day and come back to the body at night, he said. But they always removed internal organs during the mummification process.

It's impossible to know how the burial custom got started, but fragmentation could have been a concern, said Jeffrey Schwartz, a professor in the Department of Anthropology at Pitt.

"If you wanted to guess or speculate on how burial could have started, it may have been to keep the body from being chewed up by scavenging carnivores or other animals," Schwartz said.

Siminoff said people today aren't always sure about their religious leaders' teachings on burial and organ donation. But her work suggests that only a small proportion of the people who finally decide to donate the organs of a loved one regret it later.

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I just have to voice my opinion here.

I myself carry a little card in my wallet that says, that in if there are any organs in my body that can be used after my death, or if I’m brain dead, they have my permission to use them.

Until recently in Denmark the law was that the family of the deceased had to agree on it too, but I think it was changed recently.

I have to admit that, I don’t agree with the fact that the family had the possibility, to go against the deceased request in a matter like this. I for myself wouldn’t carry that agreement around with me, if I didn’t mean it.

Another thing is that I’m not religious. Ok let me rephrase that. I don’t believe in god as they teach in several churches. My belief leans more towards the belief that the American Indians have. And I also just can’t believe that people was created, and that they didn’t evolve, when there are so much evidence that supports the evolution.

It’s not that I’m against religion. My opinion is that people have the right to believe what they want, as long as it doesn’t hurt anybody. Ok I do have a problem with people that believe that the white people are supreme to all other beings. I just don’t get it at all, and if they are religious, doesn’t is say in the bible something like that all people are created equal? I once heard a member of the Ku Klux Klan say that black people don’t belong in America, well if they don’t belong there, then the white people doesn’t either, because the American Indians are the original people of America.

Ok I’ll step down from my soapbox now, and hope that this rambling has made any sense to somebody out there.


ShyGuy
 
I will be back to post more on this topic , I am on my way to work any don't have alot of time right this sec. but I had to replie now .
Great topic Lasher.

I had a kidney transplant in 1986 and one here in 1998 .I had dialysis for about 3 years all said and done waiting for transplants and have sat next to folks who used to be like that and the funny thing is that the will aruge that piont till it is them that needs a transplant.

I am not catholic and am NOT picking on them but when I had dialysis I sat next to a preist and talked for great lenghts about this matter for years catholic folks were of that thought "you must be baried will all you came into the world with" I was told that time are changing.

Funny when the shoe is on the other foot and you need a transplant to save your life.
I am 33 years old and I'm not ready for a pine box yet and wait till the learn to colne organs for transplantation use the will bitch thats not right either but with a colone organ there would be no chance of rejection like there is now thats the reson most transplants don't take.

Ok I babbeled enough right now so I'll check back after work.
 
I have to back Shyguy on this one.
As it's very common in Denmark, I too have that little donor card in my wallet. I will gladly donate any part of my body, when I don't have a use for them any longer.
Until recently my wish to be a donor, if I should buy the ticket or go braindead. My family could override my wish. Shyguy is right that that rule have been changed so it's the deceased wish that counts. Not the familys'.
I like the fact that this rule has been changed. I mean, what is the meaning with becoming a donor when you're alive. And the moment you can donate a heart, lung, kidney. The family overrides your wish???
In a way, that is a disrespect to the deceased also.

Now I'm not religious in the conventional way. And have no religious duty to "stay whole".
The way I see it is. I would gladly take a blood transplant or any kind of transplant, if it could save my life. And that means that I'm also willing to give it, if it can save somebody elses' life. Hey if I'm giving, I'm dead. What do I care then. I don't need the body part anymore.

I feel it's my duty, as a human being, to be a donor, and thus giving somebody the chance to live, when I don't anymore.

This subject has been discussed in my family quite a lot. Because not all of my family members see things the same way as I do.
But I have made it pretty damn clear that this is my wish. And I will proberly roll over in my grave and come back to haunt them, if they choose to go against it.

This is just my opinion. And what other people think and do, on this subject, is not up to me to judge.
But I do find it difficult to understand parents who'll let their children die. When a simple blood transplant could have saved them.
No, I'll rephrase that. I DON'T understand it. And I proberly never will.

I'll step down from the soapbox now.
Who's next???

[This message has been edited by Xander (edited 05-16-2000).]
 
Ohh I forgot one thing. I'm also a blood donor and have donated blood regulary for the last many years. I think I've donated around 25 or so times since I turned 18.

But since I just recently got a tattoo I can't donate in a year.

Anybody else on her blood donors?


ShyGuy
 
I also have a signed donor card in my wallet- once I'm dead, take anything you want. I won't need it anymore. Yes, I am also a blood donor. I'm at about 55 pints if I remember correctly
 
Yes I am a blood donor and have been since 18. I am a catholic and I believe in both organ donation and the flame thing once dead. I was about seven when my mother read us little ones "THe American Way Of Death". After reading that it was a short skip to I want the hefty garbage bag and just burn baby burn. I dont want to be embalmed either. I personally find the display of a dead body a little weird. I don't think they look like they are sleeping and I am not going to kiss them either. The time for that stuff is prior to not after the fact. I have lost a brother and a sister both in their early 20's. Both were cremated and we did a pictorial display at the service. It was a opportunity to celebrate their time with us. I carry a card to donate organs as needed. I consider it a gesture of respect and quite frankly an opportunity to save a life. When you get those letters telling you how many people's lives have been changed for the better it is a very wonderful feeling. Sorry I babbled on like this..... I am shutting up now.
 
I believe in organ donation, and I am a Catholic, My husband had a transplant in 1998
and it is a tough thing for both families to go through. I am enternally grateful for the people who donated the organ for my husband that way he can have a life without being hooked up to dialysis machines and such. As for the Catholic beliefs yes it was taught that you must be buried with all of your body still intact in the earlier teachings. But since then the newer teachings a lot of priests believe and have taught that God accepts your soul. You body is no longer in tact when you die, your soul goes up to heaven to be with him. Also I have been to a Catholic funeral where the priests gave the family a lot of credit for donating their mothers organs to save so many others. It is a tochy subject for a lot of religious people. And I was raised in the old beliefs to, but I have changed as many Catholics have on their opinions. I believe that if you are a good person in your life and follow the commandments you will go to heaven, whether you have all of your organs or not. I think God made it possible for doctors to do theese transplants to help others, and this is a way of helping your neighbor and giving of yourself. Since there is no help for the loved one by donating your organs you are giving a chance to someone who may not have a chance otherwise. I believe that it was God's will he makes it possible for us all to help one another in our own way.

As for the family I don't agree with them taking the heart if it was not suppossed to be but they should be very thankful that their son still lives on and is helping others.

I am very grateful for the gift that was given to my husband , and could not express to the family how grateful I am that my husband and the father of my children was given this gift. At the same time I feel so sorry for there loss, and if it were my children yes it would be extremely hard but in my heart of hearts I know that it is something that would make them live on in a little way you know they are still with you.

I know some of you will disagree but transplantation is a generous gift and God gave the doctors the knowledge of doing this and I think everyone who does this is giving of themself and God sees that as a gift and you are accepted in to heaven, whether you whole body is intact or not he is a Good God not someone who sees your body as not intact God is someone who is there to help everyone
and as long as we are good people and try our best we all join him in heaven

Sorry if I rambled to long but I have a strong opinion on this Terrific post Lasher.
 
I felt the need to reply as someone that doesnt carry and organ donor card. Its not that i dont understand the need for donation or believe that it is necessary and important. Its not my religious beliefs either since i have abandoned the catholic church as an institution but thats a whole different story. I just have a hard time thinking about anybody doing things with my body once i am gone. Even the traditional methods of caring for the dead disturb me. I guess it probably has to do with the fear of my own mortallity. When i am older and more mature I probably will become a donor but at this point in my life its just not something i am comfortable with.
-rugbygal
 
Ooh... heavy subject, but so important.I do not agree with them taking the heart. They knew they shouldn't. Whether organ donating is right or wrong is not relevant in that case. It was a simple matter of stealing. That's how many countries and several states here view it.
I whole heartedly...no pun intended... agree with organ donation. It is currently keeping my Uncle and several friends alive. What do you think of bone marrow transplant then? many think this is wrong too.
If and when I go, wherever that may be, they are welcome to anything they want from this ole carcass, then burn the rest and scatter me to the winds.
I am lucky as this topic is agreed on in my family, obviously. I don't think there is anyone in my family or close friends that don't carry an organ card.
But to each his or her own beliefs.
Oh, and I cannot donate blood as I have a wonky ticker and had rheumatic fever as a child. Otherwise I would.

[This message has been edited by merelan (edited 05-16-2000).]
 
I also have the organ donor card thingy. And I did donate blood...but I'm so afraid of needles I fainted every time I got it done, so they told me not to come back.
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Bossy
 
I think it is great to see the post on such a subject as this .....Were to start well I just came in from work and wanted to get back to this post, This shit means something to me and I see the wife skitten made a post that said what I wanted to very well in her words. You just don't know what it means to someone this tpye of gift and it is a rotten thing to go through for anyone , I had a cousin blow a brain tumor and was there (called by the family to recive her kidney) when the core rep. talk to them and all said and done I was not a match but her passing she save or help something like 233 folks.
To me thats pretty heavy, I mean man 233 folks......Ribs for jaw bones ,eyes, skin, Yes bone marrow you name it. It is truly wonderfull what can be done.

I am happy to see so many folks that are doners and as for folks like Rugbygal hey it's cool it is a big thing to ask or do and It is not for everone.

One thing I did want to add is I wish I could donate blood but they will not take mine anymore as I have the anti rejection drugs in my blood that they deam unuseable and it just sounds like a waste to me when they are hurting for blood so bad so offten but hey thats the way it goes.

So now everone knows why my e-mail is kidney2@tcsinternet.net


Ok, Ok , Ok I have had my time on the soapbox also.
 
Well I carry a donor card, hubby carries one and my son's father and I have both agreed(GOD FORBID) that we would donate my son's organs if anything happened. My mother had expressed wishes to be a donor but unfortunately she had died a few hours before we discovered her and in the ensuing confusion donation was not possible. A portion of her brain tissue was removed and preserved to study the effects of anuerisyms and hopefully she is comfortable with that...she requested cremation in a letter she wrote a few days prior to her death,which was odd as we had no idea she had an anuerisym, but somehow she must have known.
As a pagan I do not attach any power spiritually to my corpse,and wouldn't mind serving the living with a donation or harvesting of usable materials. In fact my family is all quite pro-donation.
I think this is a great thread, thank you all for letting me be a part of this..
Lasher you are an intellectual inspiration,if I wasn't so exhausted I'd add some research concerning pagan and non Western approaches to death...maybe later.
 
Just so there's no confusion, I didn't write the article in the above post. I came across it in some late night reading, and apparently in my sleep deprived delirium I forgot to give credit where credit is due. This was in Tuesdays edition of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette Online. I just thought it was absolutely fascinating when I came across it, and felt it would be good to share.

I make no judgements on anyone's views on this subject. Obviously this is a matter that can only be decided by looking into yourself and your own beliefs.
 
I am proud to carry a donor card. I've never given blood, and I should. (Needles don't bother me.)

No one should ever take an organ from someone who doesn't wish it. That boy's heart was stolen, no question.

Have you heard about those cases where a kid needs a bone marrow transplant or a kidney, and the parents purposely have another child on the chance that the new baby will be a match? I'm not sure how I feel about that. That seems a little creepy to me.
 
When I'm dead, I'm dead. Chop me up for stew for all I care. The woman in the article's an idiot, IMHO. What exactly is her dead son gonna do with a heart with no valves? And what are they supposed to do - take the thing out, cut out the good stuff, and stick the lumpy mess back in his dead chest?

While we're on the subject, I think dropping formaldehyde-soaked corpses in wooden caskets into concrete-lined graves is the nastiest form of pollution. It's not enough to burn the rain forests and kill the animals - we've gotta stuff the earth full of boxes of human pickles. Wonderful.

I'm going to bed now before I say something to get myself flamed (though it may be too late already.)
 
Though I will say I agree with Whispersecret in that you shouldn't take someone's organ without asking. However, I do think that everyone should be willing to give 'em up after you're done using them. I'd rather live on as part of some needy little kid's guts than be cremated while that kid dies. How selfish that would be!
 
Giving blood can be an excellent way of monitoring your health - particularily for the overly sexually active amongst you. If they keep taking the blood from you then you know you must be fine. If, however, the blood donation agency shuts and bolts all the doors and windows when they see you coming down the street then its time to worry!
As far as organ donation goes, i'm all for it though I don't have a card - simply because I keep forgetting. in a way its quite a nice thought to think that part of you is still living, even though it is in someone else's body.
Maybe that neurotic woman in the article should think about it like that. If the heart goes in the grave, its a gonner. If it goes in to a person then hooray, its still pumping!!
Mmm. this may have given me an idea for my next story - Woman gets donation of nymphomaniac clit etc...
 
Dead is dead in my book. It doesn't matter what happens to your physical body. One's soul,essence, inner light etc is what counts.
Heaven Hell whatever.

I have almost been killed several times in military training. No, I am not trying to pull a leg here. There have been times if things have gone a little different, I would not be typing here but be in little blown up pieces. Taking a dirt nap is not my idea of fun. I think because of having my mortality put in front of me I have accepted the possability of death and have continued my military career with no signs of slowing down. Plus I have to much fun blowing shit up.

All i care about is that I am remembered as a good decent person that tried to do things right. Who cares how many pieces I am in or what is taken after wards.

I too give blood every so often.
 
SC, I have the two I was born with and then in 1986 I had my first transplant then in 1998 I need a second transplant so now I currently have 4 kidneys inside me .
They only tansplant one and they don't remove the old one unless they have to.
Sorry didn't mean to gross anyone out there.
 
The back of my drivers license has a spot to sign if you want to be an organ donor. I need to check and see if my latest one is signed on the back. I don't mind them taking anything that will help someone else except for my brain. If it works I need it and if it doesn't who would want it?
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Laurel I want to be buried in a pine box under a big pecan tree. No cement lined vault and not a fancy coffin.(they probably won't let me because of your pollution issue)
 
I'm so glad that I'm not the only one!
that's what I thought when reading this thread. I've talked about this subject a fair bit with my friends and family, and they all think I am quite wacked, because I don't want to be buried. I just tell them to donate my body to science. Let the little med students slice and dice. It's not as if I'll feel it, and I'll be doing some good, even after I'm gone. Take what you can...take what you need. The looks I get.
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I totally agree with Laurel about burials. It's nuts. HOw intact would the body be after being embalmed anyway?
I suppose I just don't understand organized religion. Quite illogical, if you ask me. They say you are supposed to go on faith, but faith in opposition with sound logic? I don't know. I'm content just with one line-supposedly from christ...'do onto others as you would have done onto you'. Somethin' like that. It's late..cut me some slack.
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to bed I go...hi ho, hi ho.
 
ANd who says us sex addicts don't have a heart??

As a nurse, especially in hospice, I see the effect of the shortage of organ donation on a semi-regular basis. It is so hard to see the 5 yr old child that looks 3 becuase he desperately needs a kidney.

I agree with so many of you on this topic...why in heaven's name do we embalm corpses??? Please, put me in a oven & cook me up to ashes and sprinkle me over the good earth as a fertilizer -- after taking any usable parts. I cringe at the thought of pre med & med students abusing my body, so donating to science isn't quite my cup of tea, but if my death can give others life.....FANTASTIC!!
 
Originally posted by hullo_nurse:
I cringe at the thought of pre med & med students abusing my body, so donating to science isn't quite my cup of tea, but if my death can give others life.....FANTASTIC!!

I haven't any objection now while I'm alive to my 'earthly shell' being diced and sliced by med and premed students after I'm done with it. If they can learn something ffrom my remains that will help them save someone from whatever eventually kills me, then I'm more than willing to have them barf on my remains as they learn.

A Thought for American's with Donor cards or the Organ Donor block on their Driver's License: Let your next-of-kin know that you really mean it! Impress on them that you'll come back and haunt them, even if you have to invent a way to do it, if they don't follow your wishes.

If you don't talk with your next-of-kin, there's a very good possibility that your donor card is meaningless.

As for me, I have talked to my children, and they know that I'm serious about organ donation, and/or donation to science. I personally believe I'm not going to have any use for this body in the afterlife (if there is one) because I'll be reincarnated and breaking a new one, or God will provide a new one when I'm ressurected. That's assuming that I'm going to need a corporeal body at all.
 
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