Why wait for conception?

[shereads]

I hereby propose that every thing that is alive - I'm including sperm here, and rabbits, and houseplants - be accorded the rights and protections otherwise reserved to viable human beings under the laws of the United States.

Since our pro-life posters continue to insist that there is no difference between "alive" and "entitled to the same considerations as thinking, feeling, human beings," I don't see why we ought to wait for the moment of conception before we begin protecting human life. An ovum has hopes and dreams too, you know.

Until the specifics are worked out, please don't step on ants. They'll need attorneys, and all hell will break loose.

--------



"Patriotism is a childhood illness; the measles of mankind."
Einstein

 

[fifty5]

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f5

 

[sweetnpetite]

I thought we were going to let this drop for a while?

 

[Liar]

Until the specifics are worked out, please don't step on ants. They'll need attorneys, and all hell will break loose.

I don't step on ants. They are too icky to pry out from under my shoes afterwards.

#L

 

[shereads]

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f5

Lovely. Thank you for my first smile since the end of the projectile vomiting.

 

[Linbido]

You're done with that, she? Good to hear that. We need more polls over here.

 

[gauchecritic]

Since our pro-life posters continue to insist that there is no difference between "alive" and "entitled to the same considerations as thinking, feeling, human beings," I don't see why we ought to wait for the moment of conception before we begin protecting human life. An ovum has hopes and dreams too, you know.

Until the specifics are worked out, please don't step on ants. They'll need attorneys, and all hell will break loose.

If I recall correctly we do have a practicing Buddhist amongst us maybe you should as his opinion. I'm sure he/she will be able to correct me when I say; If it's in front of you, moving and biological then it is alive and should not be harmed.

There are people who hold this belief.

Gauche

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Welcome back Sher, glad you are feeling better

I have to admit there is a kind of poetic justice in the thought of men being hauled off to jail for jerking off, taking the back door or getting a blow job. Would the charge be murder? Or negligent homicide?

Of course masturbation would probably become a crime epidemic. Since everything alive has rights no more baths for any of us, you might accidentally scrape a living cell off while scrubbing.

-Colly

 

[sweetnpetite]

also no boiling water, or cooking food (no eating food, plant or animal)- no immunizations, no cold medicine, no antibiotic ...

nothing dies when a woman masterbates or recieves oral though so carry on...

oh did I forget to say that I thought a fetus was a living human being ? so sorry I left that off. I was busy adressing the 'when does life begin' question. Maybe the pro-choice people should make up their mind if they want to argue it's not life or it's not human or both, and stop flip floping when their argument is refuted.

 

[minsue]

also no boiling water, or cooking food (no eating food, plant or animal)- no immunizations, no cold medicine, no antibiotic ...

nothing dies when a woman masterbates or recieves oral though so carry on...

oh did I forget to say that I thought a fetus was a living human being ? so sorry I left that off. I was busy adressing the 'when does life begin' question. Maybe the pro-choice people should make up their mind if they want to argue it's not life or it's not human or both, and stop flip floping when their argument is refuted.

SnP, the arguement hasn't been refuted. I don't see either side refuting the other to any satisfaction in the future, either.

 

[oggbashan]

Don't step on Australian Bull Ants. Their bite is very painful. Just tiptoe round them very carefully, watching out for the snakes which are worse.

Og

PS. Did you know that the Platypus has poison glands? In its back feet. Australia fauna is odd, and many species are lethal.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Don't step on Australian Bull Ants. Their bite is very painful. Just tiptoe round them very carefully, watching out for the snakes which are worse.

Og

PS. Did you know that the Platypus has poison glands? In its back feet. Australia fauna is odd, and many species are lethal.

I would like to note that the North Mississippi cow ant is another not to be trodden on. Also called velvet ants thay are about the size of a mini-cooper and if one bites you it hurts for, oh about a week. One of the few times my mother ever got me to wear shoes voluntarily was when we went for walks at my grandmothers after one of them bit me.

-Colly

 

[Guest]

I am not getting into any discussion of pro this or that, or when a human life begins. For thinking on, or not, I'd like to quote what to me is one of the most profound questions ever asked in literature.

After 'coming back' to his senses, at the end of one of the most brilliant tragical arcs ever devised, and having been reunited with himself and his favored and best daughter, Cordelia, she is murdered by mistake; the pardon did not reach the hangman in time. Holding her body, among King Lear's lines among the last two dozen of the text, he asks to no one, to nothing,

Why should a dog, a horse, a rat have life?
And thou no breath at all?

It may seem a natural question by a parent about the death of a child, by anyone about a human death. It may be heard merely as an expression of grierf, a truly tragic irony, however personal. Still, what touches me most, what makes me appreciate "life", is knowing that a dog, a horse, or rat are alive, have been given life, and deserve it.

Do they deserve life more than a human being? I don't know, and I don't know anyone who can answer the old king. That does not mean I would not sacrifice a dog or horse to save a human life, but I cannot answer Lear. (BTW, it is why I love Shakespeare; he asks wonderful questions and does not answer them.)

Perdita

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I am not getting into any discussion of pro this or that, or when a human life begins. For thinking on, or not, I'd like to quote what to me is one of the most profound questions ever asked in literature.

After 'coming back' to his senses, at the end of one of the most brilliant tragical arcs ever devised, and having been reunited with himself and his favored and best daughter, Cordelia, she is murdered by mistake; the pardon did not reach the hangman in time. Holding her body, among King Lear's lines among the last two dozen of the text, he asks to no one, to nothing,

Why should a dog, a horse, a rat have life?
And thou no breath at all?

It may seem a natural question by a parent about the death of a child, by anyone about a human death. It may be heard merely as an expression of grierf, a truly tragic irony, however personal. Still, what touches me most, what makes me appreciate "life", is knowing that a dog, a horse, or rat are alive, have been given life, and deserve it.

Do they deserve life more than a human being? I don't know, and I don't know anyone who can answer the old king. That does not mean I would not sacrifice a dog or horse to save a human life, but I cannot answer Lear. (BTW, it is why I love Shakespeare; he asks wonderful questions and does not answer them.)

Perdita

I think the answer to your old king's question is that while a specific dog, or horse or rat has life, I can pick another specific dog or horse or rat that is dead and does not have life. At some point we will all cease to have life. Why it happens early to some and late to others is one of the mysteries that only the most dogged philosophers & theologins would tackle.

Even defining the term life is not easy. Some of the cells in a dead person's body are still alive after "life" has fled the organism as a whole. A brain dead person can be kept "alive" indefintely with modern medial machines, but does that person really have life? Or are you merely prolonging the life in the cells of his/her body? "Dead" people are daily revived and "life" returns thanks to the traing and equiptment of EMT's and paramedics. If you cannot make a definitive statement on what constitutes life as an abstract concept, how can you even hope to make a definitve statement on what constitutres human life? In the broader context of the abortion argument where do you say the life of one person is now effectively seconded to the life of another?

The pro life forces make the assertion life begins at conception. Surely there can be no arguing that life exists at conception, at least life on a cellular level. It is here that the argument really takes off. Does life at the cellular level constitute human life and enjoy the protections of an already viable human being?

The forces of pro choice say no. Cellular respiration and mitosis do not constitute human life, in the sense of enjoying the rights & privelges of being a viable human being.

The argument rages back and forth, over the same well trodden ground, but no one wins because no one can provide a defintive answer to the central question. At what point does an embryo or fetus become a living human being. Enjoying not only life at the cellular level, but "life" as a human being.

Either side can provide empirical proofs to support their position. But neither can provide definitive proof that they are right. Many of the proofs provided work only at various periods in the maturation process. Many pro life proofs are very convincing in the final trimester, but totally unconvincing in the first. Many pro choice proofs work well in the first trimester, but less well in the second and virtually not at all in the final weeks before birth.

The argument gains added coils of complexity when you juxtapose the rights of the indivdual onto it. Add to that moral & legal questions and you find yourself in a quagmire of arguments, often not aimed at the same facet of the question.

Until someone can provide a definitive answer to the qustion of when life, not just life at the cellular level, but life as a human begins, the argument will remain just that an argument. There can be no debate, because debate assumes a certain set of values are agreed upon between the two sides. Debating the question of abortion is like building your house on sand. The most well built presentation of your side will crumble to the ground if your opponent pulls the foundation out from under it by not agreeing with you on the question at the foundation, what constittues a human life?

Among scientists, doctors, theologians and philosophers there has never been a concensus. The salient fact is that there probably never will be. Without an answer to that question all arguments on abortion boil down to what you want to believe, what is right for you, what your personal set of values decrees.

If it were an abstract argument, it would easily fall into the arguments for or against there being a god. Unfortuneatly this argument has extremely real consequences on a social level, and thus an agreement to disagree suits only those who favor the status quo.

I see the argument as unwinable, and yet I continuosly join the fray when it comes up. I do so because I feel very strongly about the ramifications of the argument upon my rights as an individual moreso than because I have a strong feeling on when life really begins. It is this multi-faceted nature of the argument that causes it to be so contentious. People enter the argument for more reasons than just the question at the center of the argument. This causes tangential arguments between people that are even more murky than the already clear as mud question of when life begins.

Of neccissity this argument will continue because the victory of one side or the onther is simply unacceptable to their opponents. SnP will not be happy until no woman in this country can legally obtain an abortion. That is unacceptable to me because it removes the rights as a human being from any pregnant woman. She ceases to be a human, she becomes a vehicle for a human. I can't accept that my gender predisposes me to loosing my rights if I choose to become pregnant or do so accidentally.

There can be no winner here. At best you will get a set of laws that the majority can live with. At worst you get "legalized murder" in her view if any abortions are allowed or "legalized slavery" in mine if the decision to terminate a pregnancy is denied to all women.

Why should a dog, a horse, a rat have life?
And thou no breath at all?

A dog, a horse, a rat. While W.S. wasn't intending to enter the abortion fray I think that question may speak to the heart of it more than all the arguments made here. Until the question King Lear asks can be answered, definitively, the argument will rage.

-Colly

 

[Guest]

Colly, I am very grateful and impressed with your reply. For me there is no answer, but it is that that makes Life worthwhile; not unlike the fact that it is Death that makes us appreciate Life.

I recall too, a scene in Clint Eastwood's "The Unforgiven". He is about to kill the bad-guy character played by Gene Hackman, who says something like, "I don't deserve to die." Eastwood's professional gunman (killer) replies, "Deserves got nothin' to do with it."

Perdita

 

[Guest]

If sperm, and ovums are going to be considered life then that would make more then male masterbation, blowjobs, and anal sex illegal. Celibacy, homosexualltiy, and lesbianism would also be illegal because all the cell would never have the oppurtunity to become a human.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

If sperm, and ovums are going to be considered life then that would make more then male masterbation, blowjobs, and anal sex illegal. Celibacy, homosexualltiy, and lesbianism would also be illegal because all the cell would never have the oppurtunity to become a human.

Not so. For a woman masturbation, lesbianism or celibacy would only be illegal while ovulating. The rest of the time she if freet o indulge in any of the three since no egg's right's are being abridged.

-Colly

 

[rgraham666]

Not getting immunizations won't help minisue. Even has we speak, our immune systems are killing millions of bacteria and viruses that exist inside us.

Since this is an automatic response, does this let us off the hook?

"Are viruses actually alive?" is another good question. Are prions?

Colly, the velvet ant is actually a wingless wasp. The sting is pretty nasty.

Og, Bulldog ants are ants, but they have stingers. And with jaws a quarter inch long they can bite pretty good too.

Only the male platypus is poisonous. In fact, the shape of the spur they use and the condition of the sheath surrounding it is how scientists who study platypusses (platypi? Whatever!) sex and age the ones they catch.

The snakes of Australia are pretty bad. The sea snake is the worst, although the tiger snake is up there too. I recall five to ten minutes for a healthy man to bite it.

There are also two species of jellyfish and one of octopi that are deadly as well.

The assasin spider is quite poisonous (in the black widow range as I recall) and has the most fascinating method of catching prey.

I'm showing off again, aren't I.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colly, I am very grateful and impressed with your reply. For me there is no answer, but it is that that makes Life worthwhile; not unlike the fact that it is Death that makes us appreciate Life.

I recall too, a scene in Clint Eastwood's "The Unforgiven". He is about to kill the bad-guy character played by Gene Hackman, who says something like, "I don't deserve to die." Eastwood's professional gunman (killer) replies, "Deserves got nothin' to do with it."

Perdita

I thank you for the post since it allowed me to ruminate as I replied.

It's a question without answer, but sadly, the ramifications of the question do not allow us to leave it among the rest of the great unkowns. Since people insist on passing laws relating to the final answer, it behooves people who are pretty content to leave it among the miracles of life to take sides.

I would much prefer not to know. It is among one of the greatest pleasures in life to look at someone like Renza J and simply marvel at the miracle. At the way being pregnat has taken someone already beautiful and added that indefineable quality being pregnat adds, that takes her to angelic. I don't want to know the why of it, the how of it, or anything else about it. A miracle becomes less awsome if you can explain it. I love being able to look at her av over and over again and continue to be awed by it.

-Colly

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Not getting immunizations won't help minisue. Even has we speak, our immune systems are killing millions of bacteria and viruses that exist inside us.

Since this is an automatic response, does this let us off the hook?

"Are viruses actually alive?" is another good question. Are prions?

Colly, the velvet ant is actually a wingless wasp. The sting is pretty nasty.

Og, Bulldog ants are ants, but they have stingers. And with jaws a quarter inch long they can bite pretty good too.

Only the male platypus is poisonous. In fact, the shape of the spur they use and the condition of the sheath surrounding it is how scientists who study platypusses (platypi? Whatever!) sex and age the ones they catch.

The snakes of Australia are pretty bad. The sea snake is the worst, although the tiger snake is up there too. I recall five to ten minutes for a healthy man to bite it.

There are also two species of jellyfish and one of octopi that are deadly as well.

The assasin spider is quite poisonous (in the black widow range as I recall) and has the most fascinating method of catching prey.

I'm showing off again, aren't I.

Ant or wasp, I remember the one who got me as being the size of a car with fangs like jaws

-Colly

 

[jeanne_d_artois]

Og, Bulldog ants are ants, but they have stingers. And with jaws a quarter inch long they can bite pretty good too.

Only the male platypus is poisonous. In fact, the shape of the spur they use and the condition of the sheath surrounding it is how scientists who study platypusses (platypi? Whatever!) sex and age the ones they catch.

The snakes of Australia are pretty bad. The sea snake is the worst, although the tiger snake is up there too. I recall five to ten minutes for a healthy man to bite it.

There are also two species of jellyfish and one of octopi that are deadly as well.

The assasin spider is quite poisonous (in the black widow range as I recall) and has the most fascinating method of catching prey.

I'm showing off again, aren't I.

Haven't had an altercation with a platypus but I think I met and pussyfooted around many of the painful fauna of Australia. I used to carry the basic snake bite kit of scalpel and tourniquet but never used it.

I did use the snake killer - a yard length of fencing wire.

The one Australian species I could get to hate - the Kookaburra. They sleep in flocks. If one loses its balance it squawks. That sets the others off like a convention of pneumatic road drills. Wait half an hour, another Kookaburra squawks, then the whole flock. After just one night of that you could wring a Kookaburra's neck.

Jeanne

 

[fifty5]

Lovely. Thank you for my first smile since the end of the projectile vomiting.

I only wish it was original...

In fact it was modifying something from BBC radio 4: "Girls are fecund, while boys cum first." Brilliant.

f5

 

[shereads]

Welcome back Sher, glad you are feeling better

Mercy! Look at dem bunnies!

 

[shereads]

"Are viruses actually alive?" is another good question. Are prions?

I don't have a clue what a prion is, and I'm too excited to look it up right now because you raised the "is a virus alive" issue. Wanna hijack the thread and talk about something really wierd and scary? (It's my thread, and I say let's hijack it!)

Let's talk viruses and whether they're alive and whether we're just here to give them something to graze on.

Topic: "The Demon in the Freezer," the story of smallpox and its close-but-no-cigar near-annihilation during the 1970s.

Tell me about prions, too.

Show off, please. I love this stuff.

 

[shereads]

The one Australian species I could get to hate - the Kookaburra. They sleep in flocks. If one loses its balance it squawks. That sets the others off like a convention of pneumatic road drills. Wait half an hour, another Kookaburra squawks, then the whole flock. After just one night of that you could wring a Kookaburra's neck.

Having read "In a Sunburned Country" I still like the concept of Australia but I don't think I could go barefoot there. Australia seems to have more than its fair share of harmless-looking venomous things. True?

Platypuses don't scare me, though. They don't look as if they'd sneak up on you.