Why the $15 minimum wage will cost California 400,000 jobs

[warrior queen]

that's when menial work starts to pay better.

I'm good with my hands but I don't really want to be a plumber. I'm not sure anybody really wants to be a plumber but plumbers are plumbers cuz it pays pretty damn well

Well, that's simply not true.
A checkout chick will always be paid a checkout chick's wage - regardless of how many degrees he/she may have.
Getting a better education is absolutely no guarantee of being able to find a better paying job these days! It used to be - but not any more.

I'm simply advocating for a living wage to be paid for anyone who works a full-time job. It is a scandal that there are people out there who work hard, yet have to be subsidised because they are still below the poverty line.

 

[Que]

Well, that's simply not true.
A checkout chick will always be paid a checkout chick's wage - regardless of how many degrees he/she may have.
Getting a better education is absolutely no guarantee of being able to find a better paying job these days! It used to be - but not any more.

I'm simply advocating for a living wage to be paid for anyone who works a full-time job. It is a scandal that there are people out there who work hard, yet have to be subsidised because they are still below the poverty line.

that wasn't what was being discussed what was being discussed was better education for a better job so she isn't working as a check out chick. The people who have no choice but to work as check out checks yet because they lack the mental Acumen to be able to become educated better would then be paid more, because there are less workers to choose from because more people are working higher-paying jobs.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I said as a starting point. I was specific you're just playing the goalpost game.

Either state right here and right now that you don't believe that people pay politicians or stop. Because you're real great at pretending you don't believe in things.

Omg he finally got to the meat, fantastic.

I absolutely believe billionaires pay pols big bucks....celebrity entertainers included, even some of the not white male ones I mentioned.

So at what point in the government corruption process did you decide the government was alleviated of it’s responsibilities and place them at the feet of billionaires?

 

[Sean Renaud]

I was always here, you were trying to play games and I wasn't in the mood lately. It was always on the rich. always has, always will be. The government is a tool. How much of it we should have is a debate, but like you like state with guns, the guns don't kill people kill. I just think if you made it harder for people to have guns it would harder for people to kill and you think it it was harder for people to govern that magically people would be better people.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I was always here, you were trying to play games and I wasn't in the mood lately. It was always on the rich. always has, always will be. The government is a tool.

The government is not a tool its people, we call these people politicians, people that for some reason you have deemed TOTALLY not responsible at all for the things they do or don’t do.

How did you come to the idea that what the government does or doesn’t do is solely the responsibility of billionaires, but not at all the responsibility of the politicians who are the ones with the ultimate power of authority ?

 

[Rightguide]

When everyone has done it, become educated and got a better job, who do you propose does the menial work?
The checkout chick and the garbage man are both critical for society to function. Yet you believe that they should work hard and still be unable to pay for basic living necessities?
No wonder there is such inequality!

Young people coming in at the bottom, the hopelessly incapable, the itinerant.

 

[wheres_the_beef]

Especially WalMart workers, paid so little they qualify for welfare benefits. Taxpayers get to subsidize the multi-billionaire Walton family. Groovy.

Businesses that use a lot of unskilled labor and facing huge cost increases can be expected to try and maximize profits. Some of those aren't massively profitable corporations with wealthy ownership. Depending on the market they operate in, how much comes out of their bottom line and how much they can pass along in inflated prices will vary. Except for edge cases, businesses will pay some of the higher wages in lost profits while their customers pay part of those increased costs. That includes Wal-Mart. The higher costs for higher minimum wages won't just be coming out of the hands of the wealthy orlarge, highly profitable businesses. It will be coming out of the hands of the poor, middle class, and small/medium private businesses too.

If you actually want to maximize the share of the cost of helping the poor borne by the wealthiest, minimum wages are awful at it. They just kind fire a shotgun blast of increased costs into the labor market and let markets spread them around. A targeted tax increase (to say fund EITC expansion) is much better if you are actually concerned about people like the Waltons paying.

 

[Sean Renaud]

The government is not a tool its people, we call these people politicians, people that for some reason you have deemed TOTALLY not responsible at all for the things they do or don’t do.

How did you come to the idea that what the government does or doesn’t do is solely the responsibility of billionaires, but not at all the responsibility of the politicians who are the ones with the ultimate power of authority ?

It's not people, it's a tool. How do you not understand something that simple? They are not responsible for a damn thing at least not in a democratic republic.

Because they have the time, money and resources to wield this tool effectively and the rest of us have to deal with you kicking us in the shin whenever we are remotely close to do anything effective.

 

[BotanyBoy]

It's not people, it's a tool.

Government looks like people to me.
https://cruxnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/webRNS-POPE-CONGRESS092415e-1.jpg

These people ^^ have ultimate authority of government.....not billionaires.

Sounds like people to Merriam-Webster......


Definition of government:

: the body of persons that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization: such as
a : the officials comprising the governing body of a political unit and constituting the organization as an active agency The government was slow to react to the crisis.
b capitalized : the executive branch of the U.S. federal government
c capitalized : a small group of persons holding simultaneously the principal political executive offices of a nation or other political unit and being responsible for the direction and supervision of public affairs: (1) : such a group in a parliamentary system constituted by the cabinet or by the ministry (2) :

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/government

How do you not understand something that simple? They are not responsible for a damn thing at least not in a democratic republic.

I understand you think the people running the government aren't at all responsible for their actions, I'm asking you to explain why you think that.

100% of the laws I know of have been voted into existence and executed by government officials, how do you figure they aren't responsible for their actions as government officials?

Because they have the time, money and resources to wield this tool effectively

Politicians are the only ones who wield the "tool" of government, not billionaires.

It's 100% in the hands of the government, but you say billionaires are responsible...how do you figure?

and the rest of us have to deal with you kicking us in the shin whenever we are remotely close to do anything effective.

How am I or the rich kicking anyone in the shin?

 

[Sean Renaud]

So if the government looks like people to you the military must be as well. So that makes me responsible for ISIS.

 

[BotanyBoy]

So if the government looks like people to you the military must be as well.

Of course.

So that makes me responsible for ISIS.

How?

Last I checked ISIS is responsible for ISIS.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I personally destabalized Iraq and Afghanistan. Without me we'd still have functional if evil governments over there.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I personally destabalized Iraq and Afghanistan. Without me we'd still have functional if evil governments over there.

Me to, but that doesn't make us responsible for ISIS or their actions.

Not even on a national scale.

I'm still curious as to how you came to the belief that nobody in the government is at all in any way shape or form responsible for any of their actions as government officials.

Do you not think Bush has some share of the responsibility as CIC and POTUS for ordering US military force to go wreck Iraq and Afghanistan???

Do you seriously not think any Republicans or Trump has any share of the responsibility for this tax reform they are trying to pass?

 

[Hypoxia]

I personally destabalized Iraq and Afghanistan. Without me we'd still have functional if evil governments over there.

No, I confess: It's all my fault. I accept responsibility. I blame my lemon poppyseed cookies. I was aiming them at Iran but I missed. Look at the results! Oh, those poor Kurds...

 

[ChadwickDMoss]

Well, that's simply not true.
A checkout chick will always be paid a checkout chick's wage - regardless of how many degrees he/she may have.
Getting a better education is absolutely no guarantee of being able to find a better paying job these days! It used to be - but not any more.

I'm simply advocating for a living wage to be paid for anyone who works a full-time job. It is a scandal that there are people out there who work hard, yet have to be subsidised because they are still below the poverty line.

that wasn't what was being discussed what was being discussed was better education for a better job so she isn't working as a check out chick. The people who have no choice but to work as check out checks yet because they lack the mental Acumen to be able to become educated better would then be paid more, because there are less workers to choose from because more people are working higher-paying jobs.

A productive "checkout chick" (my goodness, the terms you low-class types use) with degrees probably does not exist, but if she adds value to the retail outlet she is working for (also a foray into sexism), then she will be advanced to the management team, or hired away unless 'she' is too unmotivated to advance herself (which would explain why she had all the degrees [noting all of the government money out there designed to keep people in school at what amounts to a serf's wage and an indentured servant's contract]). There is no way any employer should be forced to reward the unmotivated and marginally productive no matter how many degrees they might possess.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Me to, but that doesn't make us responsible for ISIS or their actions.

Not even on a national scale.

I'm still curious as to how you came to the belief that nobody in the government is at all in any way shape or form responsible for any of their actions as government officials.

Do you not think Bush has some share of the responsibility as CIC and POTUS for ordering US military force to go wreck Iraq and Afghanistan???

Do you seriously not think any Republicans or Trump has any share of the responsibility for this tax reform they are trying to pass?

No it makes us responsible on a personal level for the existance of ISIS in the first place. You don't get to turn off the fire alarms and then claim your not at fault when the house burns down with all your stuff.

Bush gets responsibility, so does the Congress but if your correct and the military is people who are responsible for their actions and all the results (and not in a Nazi you can't rape and kill civillians and claim orders way, in a you should have done your research on the area and refused orders that were stupid sort of way) then you must also accept that government itself is a tool. We elect people (most of them anyway there are appointees and to varying degrees that's a good thing) to do our bidding. They are public servants. The fact that you and I have no direct channels to use this massive machine doesn't mean it's not a machine. It means that Uncle Moneybags has the keys to the car and we aren't even in the back seat to nag. He put us in the trailer because he was tired of of whining about wanting to use the bathroom and to get a bite to eat.

So are voters, and we know how lobbying works to the brunt of this must be placed on those with the most power, responsible for the actions their machine takes under their control or should we just play wheel of fortune to see who gets to be in government because 'We the People' really means the same thing as 'Under God' it's a myth, nobody believes it we just say it. Because I believe it, I believe we wield it like a 14 year old with a credit card but that's because we have the kings in control and guys like you who instead of lending your power to my Spirit Bomb would rather pull the rug out and then tell me how my plan was stupid and I couldn't have won. Maybe I couldn't. Maybe we couldn't. Maybe you me and LJ couldn't. What can I say though? sure I'm practical when it's the right route but there are times when I'm full on "What you have are bullets and the hope that when you run out I will be dead but if I am not what do you do then?"

 

[BotanyBoy]

No it makes us responsible on a personal level for the existance of ISIS in the first place.

How? We didn't put that together...that's on them.

Bush gets responsibility, so does the Congress but if your correct and the military is people who are responsible for their actions and all the results then you must also accept that government itself is a tool.

I think the law is a tool, the government is the organization representing the human element that wields it.

We elect people (most of them anyway there are appointees and to varying degrees that's a good thing) to do our bidding. They are public servants.

And it's their responsibility to do that, which the SWEAR they will do.....so when they turn around and sell our peachy asses out to the highest bidder, how is it not that politicians fault? Their responsobility?

The fact that you and I have no direct channels to use this massive machine doesn't mean it's not a machine.

Never said it wasn't, just that there is a human who holds the keys, their name is on the title and they are at the wheel....making them ultimately responsible for how that machine is being operated.

When you speed you don't get to send your speeding tickets to the CEO of whatever car manufacturer you bought a car from, or the GM of the dealership it was last sold at because they built/sold you a car that could do 140.

Because they aren't anymore responsible for how you operate that machine anymore than you and I are responsible for ISIS, or billionaires are responsible for congress critters fucking us over to fill their pockets every chance they get.

It means that Uncle Moneybags has the keys to the car and we aren't even in the back seat to nag.

But uncle moneybags doesn't......uncle Sam does.

So are voters, and we know how lobbying works to the brunt of this must be placed on those with the most power, responsible for the actions their machine takes under their control

Politicians are the ones with the most power...by far.

The US politician wields more power than any other human being that has ever existed.

The machine might be collectively owned by "we the people" but Uncle Sam is behind the wheel of it.

 

[DeYaKen]

Young people coming in at the bottom, the hopelessly incapable, the itinerant.

And, of course, those who are too poor to afford a college education. It's catch22 you need an education to get a well paid job, but you need a well paid job to pay for the education.

 

[WoundedKnee]

And, of course, those who are too poor to afford a college education. It's catch22 you need an education to get a well paid job, but you need a well paid job to pay for the education.

This might be true where you live, but here no one is too poor to afford a college education. We throw, I mean, literally, throw money at higher education. And, in Venezuelan-style thinking, no matter how much money we lavish on our educational system, the cry is always for more; more loans, more taxes, more inclusion. If you can find an American too poor to to afford college, I will show you an American who should be far too stupid and lazy to even qualify to go to college. However, that American has no chance in the workplace because we keep importing illegals to price him/her out of a job.

 

[warrior queen]

A productive "checkout chick" (my goodness, the terms you low-class types use) with degrees probably does not exist, but if she adds value to the retail outlet she is working for (also a foray into sexism), then she will be advanced to the management team, or hired away unless 'she' is too unmotivated to advance herself (which would explain why she had all the degrees [noting all of the government money out there designed to keep people in school at what amounts to a serf's wage and an indentured servant's contract]). There is no way any employer should be forced to reward the unmotivated and marginally productive no matter how many degrees they might possess.

Or...........and here's a thought...... he/she went to school and racked up a huge debt to get a degree, came out the other end all qualified, only to find the jobs simply weren't there - and ended up working at a checkout in a supermarket.
This does actually happen here. Right now, there are 12.2 unemployed people for every single job available here. That means, even if every vacancy was filled today, tomorrow there would still be 11.2 people unemployed for each.
(Not sure how you end up with point two of a person, but that's the stats they give so that's what I repeat )

 

[WoundedKnee]

Or...........and here's a thought...... he/she went to school and racked up a huge debt to get a degree, came out the other end all qualified, only to find the jobs simply weren't there - and ended up working at a checkout in a supermarket.
This does actually happen here. Right now, there are 12.2 unemployed people for every single job available here. That means, even if every vacancy was filled today, tomorrow there would still be 11.2 people unemployed for each.
(Not sure how you end up with point two of a person, but that's the stats they give so that's what I repeat )

What kind of degree?
That makes a big difference.
We keep issuing special visas to the people who study the things Americans won't study in order to fill STEM jobs. Maybe throwing money at education, as that guy pointed out, doesn't really create the results we need, but instead breeds degree programs that don't lead to jobs because there are only so many professorships in gender/race studies?

 

[Que]

.....

 

[Rightguide]

And, of course, those who are too poor to afford a college education. It's catch22 you need an education to get a well paid job, but you need a well paid job to pay for the education.

Abraham Lincoln taught himself to read and taught himself the law and became a good lawyer and President of the United States all without any formal education.

Sometimes people have to help themselves. Millions did during the Great Depression and became the greatest American generation.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Or...........and here's a thought...... he/she went to school and racked up a huge debt to get a degree, came out the other end all qualified, only to find the jobs simply weren't there - and ended up working at a checkout in a supermarket.
This does actually happen here. Right now, there are 12.2 unemployed people for every single job available here. That means, even if every vacancy was filled today, tomorrow there would still be 11.2 people unemployed for each.
(Not sure how you end up with point two of a person, but that's the stats they give so that's what I repeat )

That's what happens when you let lefties make it all but impossible for anyone but the elites to make a living for themselves in the name of the greater good.

 

[Sean Renaud]

No, that's what happens when us lefties fail to fight hard enough for the rest of you.