Why sub

[eastern sun]

I can't say I agree with this in every case. Neither my husband nor I have the last word for anything. It took about 1 yr of marriage for us to figure out the best way to compromise. After that first year we rarely argued again. Neither of us were in control but we knew each others priorities. He knows when an issue is important to me and he gives in, and I know what issues are most important to him and I give in. Mostly we agree about most everything so there while there may be discussion it is not a debate or argument.

I'm impressed, because it sounds like you figured out how to shift power (i.e. give and take it) smoothly and without conflict. So did we, with different parameters.

 

[Harmony_1985]

i want to pose this as a hypothetical. Lets say you have a couple. Both partners have the same level of education, make the same amount of money, and have comparable other abilities and achievements, and are both able to independently take care of themselves when not in a relationship. What other reason besides low self esteem would cause one person in this relationship to cede control outside the bedroom to the other in any matter they would be equally affected by? Because its more common i'm going to assume the PYL is male and the pyl is female. Why would a female of healthy self esteem, comparable ability and achievement cede control of things she is equally vested in like how a home is furnished or where joint vacations are taken to her Dominate partner?

i guess i'm trying to get my head around the expectation that a bottom would be all these healthy, independent, wonderful things and be happy to turn over control not only in the bedroom but outside it as well to a Dominant that wasn't really her superior in self esteem\self assurance at least.

I'm going to answer from my point of view, which of course, could be different from someone elses. As the saying goes, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

I consider myself to be all of the above. Good self esteem, got a job, an education etc etc etc. But yet I'm a sub. Why?

Because serving Master makes me feel complete.

Before I discovered the BDSM world I was all of the above, but I wasn't happy. I still felt like there was something missing in my life, like a part of me wasn't there, but then I discovered the world and a fantastic Master, and now I'm far happier than I was before.

I gain alot of pleasure from serving my Master and having him look after me, it makes me happy. I can't explain it outside of that really.

But it also brings up a point as to why you would assume someone would have to have poor self esteem to defer control?

Not being nasty about it or anything, just curious.

 

[HottieMama]

Why would a female of healthy self esteem, comparable ability and achievement cede control of things she is equally vested in like how a home is furnished or where joint vacations are taken to her Dominate partner?

Why? Because it makes me happy to do so. I don't need to analyze it anymore than that really. If I ever get to a point where my submission to my partner makes me unhappy, then it is time to move on.

 

[shamra]

Iam well educated and independent. I need a companion that in that respect is equal, but in the bedroom I want to turn that control over. Growing up in a catholic family and school system sex was something good girls did not do unless they were married and then it was either to have a family or please their husband.

So being a submissive makes being a naughty girl ok for me.

 

[the captians wench]

I like making him happy, it makes me happy.

I'm totally self sufficent, but if he told me he didn't like my love seat and I need a new one, I'd go get a new one. Most thingsdon't matter to me, and the things that do, we have simular views on. So while we don't agree on politics, we do agree that I have the right to have my own opinions.

It's called an exchange for a reason. I give up a little, he gives up a little. It's not 50/50, it's 100/100.

 

[ataxia.girl]

But it also brings up a point as to why you would assume someone would have to have poor self esteem to defer control?

Not being nasty about it or anything, just curious.

Because most women i know who do whatever their husband tell them outside the bedroom do it because they have less faith in themselves independent of the other person than their man does. i just haven't met very many women who i would consider emotionally and mentally independent that give over very much control when it comes to non-sexual matters unless doing so turns them on sexually.

i guess i travel in very small circles. i know lots of women who defer to their husbands on pretty much anything their husband has an opinion on because they they believe in a value system which has its roots in a religious patriarchy. i know career women in my company, in my husband's, and other moms at my kids school who either seem to make pretty much all the decisions or have an equal say or for whom the power balance is always in question and fluctuating. i just haven't met many of these independent women under the age of around 40 that seem like followers outside the bedroom. i'm sure they are out there. They just aren't in the circles i have traveled in... save one.

i do have a very good friend who is a southern belle type that believes in deference to her husband but then she's soundly over 40... approaching 50 i think and her marriage is less than 5 years old. For someone who talks the talk about deference she does a fair amount of complaining and nagging. i think hers is more a belief that a classy wife always defers to her husband in public and only disagrees in private. my husband and i both pretty much both follow that rule though. If one of us says something the other one does not agree with in front of anyone other than immediate family we might say "oh really?" but there are few times we would openly disagree if the topic had anything to do with how our family is run.

 

[HottieMama]

i just haven't met very many women who i would consider emotionally and mentally independent

What criteria do you judge emotional/mental independence on?

 

[ataxia.girl]

What criteria do you judge emotional/mental independence on?

Interesting question.

i guess a rough rule would be someone who was able to take care of themselves equally well in or out of a relationship but more than that. i want to say they are also as good at taking care of themselves as their partner is, meaning one is not more or less dysfunctional than the other.

Of course now i have had to look up independent in the dictionary and i have to say it seems pretty contrary to any definition of submissive i've ever seen.

1 : not dependent: as a (1) : not subject to control by others : self-governing (2) : not affiliated with a larger controlling unit <an independent bookstore> b (1) : not requiring or relying on something else : not contingent <an independent conclusion> (2) : not looking to others for one's opinions or for guidance in conduct (3) : not bound by or committed to a political party c (1) : not requiring or relying on others (as for care or livelihood) <independent of her parents> (2) : being enough to free one from the necessity of working for a living <a person of independent means> d : showing a desire for freedom <an independent manner>

Perhaps this explains why i have never understood a Dominant's desire for an independent submissive. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[CutieMouse]

What criteria do you judge emotional/mental independence on?

Interesting question.

i guess a rough rule would be someone who was able to take care of themselves equally well in or out of a relationship but more than that. i want to say they are also as good at taking care of themselves as their partner is, meaning one is not more or less dysfunctional than the other.

Based on those criteria, I so fail at the independence thing.

 

[Homburg]

The part in bold is exactly what I was about to write.

Yep, I think he nailed it too. I think that there is some overcomplication going on here. Maybe not everyone needs some deep reason.

Some people just know their place is not in front.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Yep, I think he nailed it too. I think that there is some overcomplication going on here. Maybe not everyone needs some deep reason.

Some people just know their place is not in front.

Oh... okay. Well its all solved for me now. Thanks. i guess i'll move on to a political board or something since there's not much left to discuss about Dominance and submission. Some people know they belong in front (doesn't matter why) and some people know they belong in back (doesn't matter why). Got it.

 

[Homburg]

Oh... okay. Well its all solved for me now. Thanks. i guess i'll move on to a political board or something since there's not much left to discuss about Dominance and submission. Some people know they belong in front (doesn't matter why) and some people know they belong in back (doesn't matter why). Got it.

No, it doesn't always matter why. Not everyone has massive unresolved religious conflicts in their childhood. Not everyone has to be slapped down to feel they're worthy. Not everyone needs to be forced to bend their necks so that they feel actualised.

Phrases like "not everyone" and "some" indicate that my post was referring to a portion of the populace. The implication in the OP was that everyone has deep reasoning, or any reasoning at all for what they do. Nope, sorry, sweetheart. Not everyone leads the examined life in the context of what makes their cunts wet.

Moreover, you posed a wildly artifical set of parameters, and excluded all of the normal reasons why someone might place themselves in an inferior position. Guess what? Given those artificial constraints, "Some people are just followers," is as accurate an answer as any.

 

[ImOnIt]

Hi Ataxia. I take it your daddy is a different man to your husband?

This last post sounds sarcastic to me.

I do things because I want it, or because i do not want the alternative. I do things because it makes sense, or because it seems right, or because i am afraid of something else. Sometimes because of habit, sometimes because I have been taking care of myself. Sometimes i do non-ideal things because i dont know what my options are, or because i am shy or afraid. But I learn from it, overall, and over time.

Sometimes my sphere of awareness is so small as to be entirely inside my own head, and sometimes feels like it is so big it encompasses everything. I am a student. I am often wrong. Things change. I change. Mostly it is me that changes. I guess that people who identify as PYL have reasons that are hard to express. As a result of never being in control? Or of always being in control? Of being subject to someone's insecurity.

I say 'as a result' to mean causation, but it is intensely private, internal, and so hard to grasp that trying to understand it myself, then type it to you with simple clumsy words is hard.

As in i felt 'something' in 'example situation' that made me FEEL like I would really love to not feel so powerless. It was a time when i felt fear, and my wordless reaction was to wish i could be X.

X here meaning: to be in charge so I would not be scared.

X might be substitutable for 'to not be in charge but someone would take care of me so i would not be scared because they would know, and i would trust them'

---> This is a further explanation of 'just because I tend that way'. Ha. Your mileage may vary.


EDIT for Homburg's reply: I do not mean only unusual or creative abuse to 'make' someone a certain tendancy. I'm speaking about my own perfectly ordinary critical incident, and plain ordinary terrified. I speak for me only.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I don't know, but I'd really appreciate some miracle all-encompassing answer right now.

It might help me work out why I like to, yet am in the throes of a full blown panic attack about the rest of my life being out of my control at the moment.

/ends whine and crawls under a rock

 

[minx1]

I don't know, but I'd really appreciate some miracle all-encompassing answer right now.

It might help me work out why I like to, yet am in the throes of a full blown panic attack about the rest of my life being out of my control at the moment.

/ends whine and crawls under a rock

*smiles* out of my head!

Its kinda comforting to know someone else is finding it difficult.

 

[bruisedangel]

I don't know, but I'd really appreciate some miracle all-encompassing answer right now.

It might help me work out why I like to, yet am in the throes of a full blown panic attack about the rest of my life being out of my control at the moment.

/ends whine and crawls under a rock

*smiles* out of my head!

Its kinda comforting to know someone else is finding it difficult.

I really don't think there's one 'real' answer to this. You sub, because that's what you do. That's who you are. (And lots of hugs on dealing with life going haywire.)

 

[Netzach]

I'm kind of Mary Contrary, but the only submissive interests and impulses I've ever had are

1. About me and my sexual range and not denying myself anything I want to do.

2. Came on and come on when my self esteem is at a peak, not a valley. After you've lived in the land of control for a decade, gone through an existential crisis, and still have the same people with you on the other side of it, anything that was artificially rigid is going by the wayside.

All my relationship demarcations got better, when my boundaries flexed with T. M is the partner T is the paramour, H is the doggie.

3. All the independence in my stubborn introverted body isn't going to help me out when the shit hits the fan. It's just not the only way I measure my power and my dignity and my worth, and as far as Dominant parties go, the independence of that party in relation to the submissive one is usually very overrated.

If Dominants were all so self actualized rah rah, there'd be no real hot and sticky enmeshment with slaves/subs/etc.

 

[YourCaptor]

Lets assume we are not talking about someone who just wants rid of choice.

I don’t think subs are powerless, they can get things, its just that they must get it through the dom.

Maybe subs just enjoy that extra screen around them. Keeps them comfortable, at ease.

 

[Harmony_1985]

Because most women i know who do whatever their husband tell them outside the bedroom do it because they have less faith in themselves independent of the other person than their man does. i just haven't met very many women who i would consider emotionally and mentally independent that give over very much control when it comes to non-sexual matters unless doing so turns them on sexually.

i guess i travel in very small circles. i know lots of women who defer to their husbands on pretty much anything their husband has an opinion on because they they believe in a value system which has its roots in a religious patriarchy. i know career women in my company, in my husband's, and other moms at my kids school who either seem to make pretty much all the decisions or have an equal say or for whom the power balance is always in question and fluctuating. i just haven't met many of these independent women under the age of around 40 that seem like followers outside the bedroom. i'm sure they are out there. They just aren't in the circles i have traveled in... save one.

i do have a very good friend who is a southern belle type that believes in deference to her husband but then she's soundly over 40... approaching 50 i think and her marriage is less than 5 years old. For someone who talks the talk about deference she does a fair amount of complaining and nagging. i think hers is more a belief that a classy wife always defers to her husband in public and only disagrees in private. my husband and i both pretty much both follow that rule though. If one of us says something the other one does not agree with in front of anyone other than immediate family we might say "oh really?" but there are few times we would openly disagree if the topic had anything to do with how our family is run.

I'm guessing that most of these people are 'nillas?

Because there's your big difference.

I sub by choice, because I want to do it, not because I need that support system to feel better about myself.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

*smiles* out of my head!

Its kinda comforting to know someone else is finding it difficult.

*grins*

Aight. We can cohabit, yes?

Only, though, if you end up feeling utterly ridiculous stressing over things out of your control, yet unable to stop it as well.

 

[the captians wench]

ataxia.girl I'm curiuos as to how you view a D/s relationship that isn't just sexually based. I mean, what roles and responcibilities do each part take on? I think you might be stuck in the same mentality that I've been fighting ever since I discovered D/s, micromanagement.

I have a hard time picturing what a D/s relationship, a TPE relationship more specifically, is with out micromanagement. I mean, if the D is all knowing and all powerful, then how can a sub ever have a say in anything? And why would some one want to make every choice in my life down to how I brush my teeth, and why would any one want to live with out being able to have a say in anything not even how they eat their steak?

This idea that all D/s leads to micromanagement is what held me back for a long time. It kept me from growing and developing on my own. Men here that I played with took advantage of that, and I let them because I thought that was how this lifestyle worked. It wasn't until I finally "sat down" and talked to Jounar about his views of this life and how progession is made that I started to see not all roads lead to micro.

Basically he told me he's too lazy for that. *giggles* He wants control, but he doesn't have the time, pacients, nor desire to control every aspect of my life. He wants me to be able to take care of his property with out a manual. I have to be able to take care of myself in order to take care of what's his, to please him and make him proud.

I do have some issues, some things that I seek his advice and opinion on, but they are mostly big things. The little things I know, after our time together, what he expects of me.

Now, admitedly Jounar and I have not spent more than 9 days having to deal with each other face to face. But while I was married I was the same way. My husband was head of the house. What he wanted he got.

 

[ataxia.girl]

i think what i have found in really thinking about this and examining myself is that i am uncomfortable submitting outside the bedroom when all other things are equal. i don't think i could do it anymore and i'm realizing that i'm rapidly losing any desire for it. i informed my husband last night that i would be making a large purchase at the end of the month. Not so long ago i would have asked, rather than simply letting him know that i was buying x and this is where the money was coming from. It won't change the kinky nature of our sexual relationship.

Whenever i imagine being any kind of pyl in a 24/7 context i am never working, i don't have children, and i have few responsibilities outside the context of the relationship. i'm not sure why i require a tangible sense of inequality but i know that i would.

Anymore, being belted or caned or whatever in the bedroom just doesn't translate to life outside it. i still serve my husband because i have a very strong hostess streak, which is increasing rather than decreasing, but i don't really ask permission anymore beyond starting a discussion with "what do you think about x?" if its something that affects both of us.

i think i am both a reluctant leader and a reluctant follower. i just kinda make my way i guess and do my thing. Its funny, both of the men in my life have told me i have 5 personalities. It was weird when Daddy brought up the changing personality thing since i'd never mentioned it. i'm pretty sure there's a Domme in there somewhere.

 

[ataxia.girl]

ataxia.girl I'm curiuos as to how you view a D/s relationship that isn't just sexually based. I mean, what roles and responcibilities do each part take on? I think you might be stuck in the same mentality that I've been fighting ever since I discovered D/s, micromanagement.

No its not about micromanagement. i would say its more about whether or not a pyl who submits sexually also submits to a PYL's veto power on everything outside the bedroom.

i kinda don't anymore but my outside the bedroom submission was never an extension of my submission inside it so perhaps that's the difference.

In other words i submitted outside the bedroom first. The sexual D/s came later.

 

[Netzach]

i think what i have found in really thinking about this and examining myself is that i am uncomfortable submitting outside the bedroom when all other things are equal. i don't think i could do it anymore and i'm realizing that i'm rapidly losing any desire for it. i informed my husband last night that i would be making a large purchase at the end of the month. Not so long ago i would have asked, rather than simply letting him know that i was buying x and this is where the money was coming from. It won't change the kinky nature of our sexual relationship.

Whenever i imagine being any kind of pyl in a 24/7 context i am never working, i don't have children, and i have few responsibilities outside the context of the relationship. i'm not sure why i require a tangible sense of inequality but i know that i would.

Anymore, being belted or caned or whatever in the bedroom just doesn't translate to life outside it. i still serve my husband because i have a very strong hostess streak, which is increasing rather than decreasing, but i don't really ask permission anymore beyond starting a discussion with "what do you think about x?" if its something that affects both of us.

i think i am both a reluctant leader and a reluctant follower. i just kinda make my way i guess and do my thing. Its funny, both of the men in my life have told me i have 5 personalities. It was weird when Daddy brought up the changing personality thing since i'd never mentioned it. i'm pretty sure there's a Domme in there somewhere.

I had delusions of serious PE with M at one point, but honestly the actual keel I operate on isn't that. That would probably blow out my adrenals, to be honest. I feel the need to have veto and option in the relationship, but it's fine if it's organic, it doesn't have to be codified. In other words, as long as I don't feel like *I* am always asking permission, I don't care if he doesn't always feel like *he* has to ask permission.

I need to let him do certain things and make certain decisions. Like the car, his career, his own health and safety, honestly. Those are things I can't legislate for someone on an ongoing basis no matter how much of a stud I think I am when I'm turned on.

I absolutely enjoy popping in and interfering with those processes with H. He's 59, he's very good at all his own shit by now. Like your Daddy I live with any resistance/assdragging PART of the time.

Call me lazy halfassed or hardcore, but I am interested in the goodies without the blowback - I don't know why some D's seem permanently interested in the blowback like it's its own fetish. No offense to you, because you seem to be operating from the total emotional raw transparency angle - which is really interesting to me, actually. I definitely GET blowback from H, but it's his old emotional scars and stuff and I have absolutely infinite patience with that because we're both crazy Jews and it's fascinating shit to me.

With M, the defensiveness is something I have to compromise around in order to live my life and have a good day. The consequences of poking it all the time are not so great.

I definitely picked someone who I knew would not expect me to defer to HIM in bed or out of it. Not publicly, not privately, as a matter of habit. That doesn't mean I never do it. It's not from expectation. The degree to which I expect his deference is the same degree to which I expect his sense of humor - it's just there. If it isn't I don't have to put him in a cage in the basement or take away his toys.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Well i don't resist all the time with Daddy by any stretch. At most i have resisted\tantrum-ed 2 nights out of a 4 night visit. The last visit i didn't resist at all for the entire 5 days. Its not something i decide to do. It just happens.

i think the other reason Daddy doesn't mind is he still pursues other women. If he found a perfectly obedient slave and there was chemistry he would dig that.

He has likened owning me to owning a race horse that sometimes forgets its owned property but unlike a racehorse he is much bigger than i am and has no problem subduing me. Perhaps yappy lap dog who isn't aware the pit bull its barking at is 20 times its size would be a better analogy.