Why Islam is disrespected

[Lovelynice]

I wasn't aware of that. It's a very interesting point and muddies the waters morally if true. Got a link?

Do you think that with 325,000 American lives lost our politicians could've realistically settled for a conditional surrender?

Not publicly, but they did accept a conditional surrender by their actions at the very least.

Do you think it was reasonable to kill 350,000 civilians considering that the war could've ended in July as VK says.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Still sore from that ass-kickin' are you?

You truly are the Monty Python black knight.

 

[Veryknowing]

You can't dodge the issue.

It's perfectly okay to target military installations within a city, but an entire city full of civilians is NOT a legitimate target even in wartime.

The US military deliberately attacked noncombatants and civilian installations.

Yep.

As for the documents question, I'll demur so you don't have to embarrass yourself any more.

He's still dodging the issue; The US military deliberately attacked noncombatants and civilian installations.

 

[Gringao]

He's still dodging the issue; The US military deliberately attacked noncombatants and civilian installations.

It's like talking to a fucking brick wall.

Goodnight, boneheads.

 

[Lovelynice]

Read the surrender documents. There's not a thing in there that would have prevented it. The Emperor was subordinate to the decisions of the Allied occupation authority. Period.

You're nuts.

I live in Japan. Did you notice that while you coming up with that nonsense?

Reality check for the foolish Gringao...
If the USA had even tried by any action, regardless of what may or may not have been written on a bit of paper, to remove the Emperor from his position, the war would've continued. If they'd made any attempt to do so after the surrender, the war would've started again immediately, and even Truman knew this.

The USA only had one more nuclear bomb to use, and that was it. They would've had to fight the entire Japanese population at the time, not just the Army.

 

[Lovelynice]

You truly are the Monty Python black knight.

LOL.

He is acting like that isn't he?

...and Gringao runs away again like all those rightwing nutcases do, throwing insults as he runs with his tail between his legs.

How are you LT?

I'm about to head off as well. I haven't had lunch yet.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Not publicly, but they did accept a conditional surrender by their actions at the very least.

Do you think it was reasonable to kill 350,000 civilians considering that the war could've ended in July as VK says.

Part of the problem with debates such as this is that almost nothing is reasonable. At this kind of scale, my mind reels. If what you allege is true, (and again, I'd love to see the evidence. can you point me to a source?) then it seems dropping the bombs were a horrendous atrocity and difficult to defend morally.

The war was the absolute worst chapter in human history thus far. I would like to believe that our government's actions were justified, but that's probably because I like to think of my government as benign, just, and even helpful. I imagine this is also the case for most other Americans who defend the use of the bombs.

What are your reasons for your passionate position on this topic?

 

[phrodeau]

As Lovelynice said, the US would be fighting the entire Japanese population to dethrone the Emperor.

So who were those noncombatants?

 

[Lovelynice]

What are your reasons for your passionate position on this topic?

Although I should be heading off to get something to eat, I think the reasons should be obvious. Look at my profile. Unlike most Literotica members, I have real details in my profile. I'm half-Japanese, living in Japan presently. Somebody has to play the advocate for Japan. There is never only one side to every story.

 

[Lovelynice]

So who were those noncombatants?

300,000+ civilians in Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

In truth though, Dresden had higher casualties. The official German estimate is 600,000+ civilians.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Shoulda checked the profile



Very interesting!

The impression we Americans have of Japan is that they've never taken much responsibility for their behavior in the second world war. The Germans have done serious soul-searching with regard to understanding the reasons for their belligerance (some would say to the point of self-flagellation), but what I know if Japan is that they haven't done nearly as much. We get reports occasionally that Japanese students aren't taught much about Japanese aggression, the hypocrisy of the East Asian Economic Co-Prosperity Sphere (an allegiance in name, colonialism in practice), even that the Japanese began the War with the Americans with a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.

I read a wonderful book of Oral History called Japan at War by an American named Cook and his Japanese wife about the experiences of wartime Japanese, and it was the impression from it that many people feel that the war has been largely swept under the rug and ignored since then.

Would love to get your perspective as a mixture of Japanese and Australian heritage, a current resident and teacher.

 

[Lovelynice]

As Lovelynice said, the US would be fighting the entire Japanese population to dethrone the Emperor.

Only if they tried the dethrone the Emperor. Not doing so was part of the conditions that the USA accepted by their actions. Same condition as originally required by Japan in their original offer of surrender after the Potsdam Declaration. So, the war could've ended in July, and there is no legitimacy to the claim that the bombing of Hiroshiima & Nagasaki saved lives...It didn't, and by attacking entire cities full of civilians the US military was guilty of deliberately committing an horrendous atrocity, and deliberately targetting civilians and deliberately destroying civilian installations.

 

[Veryknowing]

It's like talking to a fucking brick wall.

Goodnight, boneheads.

AGAIN?!

I thought you said goodbye last time?

Oh yeah, and you still lost.


A bunch of idiots; Gringao, Ishmael, Stuponfucious, Miles, and NONE of them could deny one simple fact;
The US military deliberately attacked noncombatants and civilian installations.

 

[Lovelynice]

Very interesting!

The impression we Americans have of Japan is that they've never taken much responsibility for their behavior in the second world war.

I'm not sure that's true. Despite the big deal made of the most recent official Japanese apology for the war, the Japanese government has apologized OFFICIALLY at least 18 times already.

I think Japanese are now heartily sick of apologizing again and again to nations like China that quite happily accept huge financial aid from Japan, and then have nasty big riots that destroy Japanese businesses, smash the embassy, while the Chinese police stand by and do nothing...then once again, the Chinese demand more apologies and more handouts. It's been SIXTY YEARS. The popular feeling now is "Enough is enough!"

The Germans have done serious soul-searching with regard to understanding the reasons for their belligerance (some would say to the point of self-flagellation), but what I know if Japan is that they haven't done nearly as much. We get reports occasionally that Japanese students aren't taught much about Japanese aggression, the hypocrisy of the East Asian Economic Co-Prosperity Sphere (an allegiance in name, colonialism in practice), even that the Japanese began the War with the Americans with a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.

The problem is partly misrepresentation about Japanese textbooks. In most recent wave of protests about Japanese textbooks, a rightwing group made up a texbook that was accepted by ONLY 1 private high-school, and the Chinese made lots of noise as if it was an officially accepted textbook which it most definitely wasn't.

As to origins of the Pacific War, they go back a long time before Pearl Harbor. The US-imposed oil embargo may have been the trigger that set the Japanese military on a course for war (the embargo was threatening lives, not just the economy - an estimated 20 milllion Japanese were expected to starve if the oil embargo wasn't broken), but the increasing animosity and misunderstanding goes back to problems decades earlier.

I read a wonderful book of Oral History called Japan at War by an American named Cook and his Japanese wife about the experiences of wartime Japanese, and it was the impression from it that many people feel that the war has been largely swept under the rug and ignored since then.

Would love to get your perspective as a mixture of Japanese and Australian heritage, a current resident and teacher.

I don't know that it's been swept under the rug. It always seems to be in the back of everyone's mind from my experience. The partying and madness of Japanese consumer culture may be a reaction to it. Japanese just don't react to it in the same way as Germany, because they have a very different culture. That doesn't mean it's forgotten or avoided.

Besides, how many times should a nation apologize and for how many decades?

Now, I really have to get some food.

 

[Veryknowing]

G'night.

Got work to do.

 

[Lovelynice]

A bunch of idiots; Gringao, Ishmael, Stuponfucious, Miles, and NONE of them could deny one simple fact;
The US military deliberately attacked noncombatants and civilian installations.

All those names suddenly dropped off together too.

Suspicious, neh?

 

[Elizafairy]

Boring!

 

[Ishmael]

Boring!

Find a stupid man with a lot of money dear.

Ishmael

 

[Le Jacquelope]

LOL.

He is acting like that isn't he?

...and Gringao runs away again like all those rightwing nutcases do, throwing insults as he runs with his tail between his legs.

How are you LT?

I'm about to head off as well. I haven't had lunch yet.

Oh, I'm doomed as usual. Thanks to Ishmael I've just discovered my real name is Gary and I'm married to some woman who's fighting in Iraq. As for Gringao, yeah, he's good at running. We oughta slap him on a treadmill and hook him up to a generator.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Only if they tried the dethrone the Emperor. Not doing so was part of the conditions that the USA accepted by their actions. Same condition as originally required by Japan in their original offer of surrender after the Potsdam Declaration. So, the war could've ended in July, and there is no legitimacy to the claim that the bombing of Hiroshiima & Nagasaki saved lives...It didn't, and by attacking entire cities full of civilians the US military was guilty of deliberately committing an horrendous atrocity, and deliberately targetting civilians and deliberately destroying civilian installations.

I'd like to have pity for Japan but after what they did to Nanking, I cannot.

But WW II is immaterial here; the US has killed many, many civvies in Iraq, today, when we previously proved beyond a reasonable doubt we could have avoided such when we scarcely killed any at all kicking the Taliban and Al Qaeda's ass in Afghanistan.

That's much more damning than going back to WW-II where we really had few other options than to kill civvies and hostiles alike (because they were all put in the same area and we didn't have cruise missiles).

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

I don't know that it's been swept under the rug. It always seems to be in the back of everyone's mind from my experience. The partying and madness of Japanese consumer culture may be a reaction to it. Japanese just don't react to it in the same way as Germany, because they have a very different culture. That doesn't mean it's forgotten or avoided.

Thanks for your considered response, LN. We Americans get very little Japanese perspective on this issue.

My gut reaction reading what you've written above is that arguing about history is terribly difficult and painful. Human beings have an ability to ruthlessly point out the hypocrisy and faults of outsiders and frustrating blindness toward their own culpability. I live in the American South where whites have had an extremely difficult time accepting responsibility for having enslaved blacks. Americans more generally have a hard time accepting responsibility for injustice toward Japanese (did ya notice? LOL).

It seems to me that you that you've been bitten by this most terrible human affliction too, though.

For example, you point to the American oil embargo as motivating the attack on Pearl Harbor and the imminent starvation of 20 million Japanese. But it's also true that the embargo was initiated by FDR in 1941 as a response to Japan's continued aggression toward its Asian neighbors. (not that we cared particularly about Asians except for what they had to offer us in terms of rubber (much as oil motivates our interests in our current war). You also wonder why the passage of "SIXTY YEARS" (your emphasis) isn't enough for China to get over alleged Japanese atrocities. But at the same time, you personally are still upset over alleged American atrocities from the same period!

My point is not to get into a flame war over which side is right and which side is wrong, who's the bully and who's the victim (which is really what these threads are all about; I'm hoping not to come across as an American partisan). The reason threads such as this can reach 400 posts is that each side can push the arguments farther and farther back in history if it serves them or to stop it where they wish depending on their biases.

I honestly don't know all that much about post-war Japan, but I'd be tremendously surprised if there wasn't a difficult time accepting responsibility for their country and ancestors behavior in claiming to be protecting fellow Asians while ruthlessly exploiting them. Analogous situations exist here. There aren't many Southern whites who like to talk about their ancestors' culpability in slavery. Americans don't like to think their elected representatives might have killed hundreds of thousands needlessly. I'd expect the Japanese to do the same (and you seem to be falling into it here). Why do you think the feeling in Japan is that "enough is enough"? That's sweeping culpability under the rug, IMO.

Besides, how many times should a nation apologize and for how many decades?

Great question. I think all participants in the war (and all participants in this thread!) would be much better served by taking a hard crack at this instead of endlessly getting into political and rhetorical stupid shit-throwing contests.

My answer to your very good question, though, would be for all parties involved, it's gonna be helluva lot more than eighteen times to justify their behaviors in that horrifying period.

 

[Lovelynice]

For example, you point to the American oil embargo as motivating the attack on Pearl Harbor and the imminent starvation of 20 million Japanese. But it's also true that the embargo was initiated by FDR in 1941 as a response to Japan's continued aggression toward its Asian neighbors. (not that we cared particularly about Asians except for what they had to offer us in terms of rubber (much as oil motivates our interests in our current war).

I'm already well aware of that, but do you know of the events prior to that oil embargo and why the USA thought it necessary? Do you know of the misunderstandings that went back decades even before then? Do you know why Japan signed treaties with Germany? You'll have to read a lot more history than just the events of 2-3 years before 1941. Japan and the USA were firm allies back before 1900. You should try studying up on why they weren't allies anymore by 1938.

You also wonder why the passage of "SIXTY YEARS" (your emphasis) isn't enough for China to get over alleged Japanese atrocities. But at the same time, you personally are still upset over alleged American atrocities from the same period!

Not really.

Think of this. Japan apologized for their part in the Pacific War. I have yet to see the USA apologize for their own culpability. Like any fight, it takes two to tango. The atrocites which Japan was guilty of, have been apologized for many times, but the atrocities that the the USA committed...particularly that of Hiroshima & Nagasaki have not been really apologized for. In the USA, the excuse is still that the use of nuclear weapons on two whole cities saved lives and ended the war - but that fiction, regardless of how popular it is, is still just fiction.

Japanese can accept that the Japanese government of that time was guilty of committing horrific atrocities. The Nanking Massacre is mentioned in Japanese textbooks, but in none of the textbooks that I have seen has any fiction been promoted to justify it. We can accept that wrong was done.

Can you accept that the USA committed an atrocious act of murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians as well? I know many Americans who have no trouble seeing that it was wrong, but there are also many more who have been spoonfed lies about it, and others who deliberately continue the fiction that deliberate destruction of entire cities was legitimate and justified and that it saved lives.

My point is not to get into a flame war over which side is right and which side is wrong, who's the bully and who's the victim (which is really what these threads are all about; I'm hoping not to come across as an American partisan).

It is not that you come across as an American partisan, it is that you are again arguing for the fiction that the USA is not to blame for it's actions, and that they were merely in reaction to Japanese aggression. It's really a lot more complex than that. I know plenty of Americans who have had not problems realising that not everything the USA committed wrong as well. Yet you try to say the oil embargo was only response to Japan's actions as if that was the start of it. It wasn't. You also fail to see the seriousness of the effect of that oil embargo.

Imagine what would happen if some nation oil embargoed the USA, then stopped all trade? Wouldn't the USA see that as an act of war?

The reason threads such as this can reach 400 posts is that each side can push the arguments farther and farther back in history if it serves them or to stop it where they wish depending on their biases.

So?

I honestly don't know all that much about post-war Japan, but I'd be tremendously surprised if there wasn't a difficult time accepting responsibility for their country and ancestors behavior in claiming to be protecting fellow Asians while ruthlessly exploiting them.

Then be surprised. It happened. The government apologized at least 18 times, officially, and for decades Japan has been sending "aid" to nations that are guilt-tripping the Japanese people into paying for Japanese atrocites. Like I said before, the Japanese cultural reaction is different. You seem to expect that Japanese are going to act like Germans, but the cultures are very different.

Analogous situations exist here. There aren't many Southern whites who like to talk about their ancestors' culpability in slavery. Americans don't like to think their elected representatives might have killed hundreds of thousands needlessly.

Isn't it the point that the USA killed hundreds of thousands needlessly when discussing Hiroshima and Nagasaki? A large part of the trhead has been devoted by people saying that the USA is still killing large numbers of civilians in other nations...particularly Iraq. Yet, you also dance around it and try to avoid discussion of it.

I'd expect the Japanese to do the same (and you seem to be falling into it here).

Then your expectations are false. I have no problem admitting that Japan did wrong. Can you admit that the USA did wrong?

Why do you think the feeling in Japan is that "enough is enough"? That's sweeping culpability under the rug, IMO.

So, you expect that the Japanese people must apologize for the actions of a military dictatorhip that illegally took over their country, and continue to give away billions of dollars in financial aid, until WHEN??? A hundred years, two hundreds years, a thousand years, how long do you think is long enough?

it's gonna be helluva lot more than eighteen times to justify their behaviors in that horrifying period.

WHY?

One rule for the USA, a different rule for Japan? Where's the USA's admittance that the dropping of nuclear weapons on cities was wrong?

 

[Veryknowing]

Oh, I'm doomed as usual. Thanks to Ishmael I've just discovered my real name is Gary and I'm married to some woman who's fighting in Iraq. As for Gringao, yeah, he's good at running. We oughta slap him on a treadmill and hook him up to a generator.

Oh yes, and he also thinks that you're me.

You'd have to chain him down, he runs too fast.

 

[*******]

Yes, they do deliberately target noncombatants and deliberately destroy civilian installations.

What do you think Dresden was? Why destroy cities like Hiroshima and Nagasaki? These were not valid military targets....they were cities full of civilians.

Now go fuck yourself.

Not to mention Sherman's march to the sea or Stalin's scortched earth policy against the Nazi's.

That has nothing to do with the current conflict. Since we have developed smart technology the over-riding emphasis has been on minimizing civilian casualties as we saw in Desert storm and Kosavo. You are spewing propoganda...

 

[*******]

On the other hand, the Islamic Jihadists have no problem what-so-ever with targeting their OWN civilian populations…

Is "go fuck yourslef" your idea of reasonable discourse?