Why Islam is disrespected

[Gringao]

I don't know anything about the terms of the Japanese surrender, but you are starting to sound frightningly like Dr Strangelove.

Your real name ain't Rumsfeld, is it ?

I didn't write it, she did. If every able-bodied man, woman and child picked up a rifle and fought an invading Allied military, does that not make them combatants? What does one have to do to become a combatant?

 

[Gringao]

Ishmael, those documents have already been posted and came up lacking. No signatures on them, but they do show that the original documents, the real ones, must have the Imperial Seal on them.

False, and an outright lie. A - They are not Japanese documents and would thus not have the Imperial Seal on them. B - I posted two links to the IoS documents that had the signatures on them.

As I said a couple of posts ago, you are free to post the "real" IoS documents for our review.

Update: Here's another transcription of the IoS and wouldn't you know, it says the exact same fucking thing that all the rest do.

Oh, and it does make note of the presence of the Imperial Seal...on the credentials of the Japanese representatives, not the IoS itself.

 

[Lovelynice]

Let's be clear: you said that an invasion of Japan would have had the Allies fighting not just the Imperial Army, but the entire population of Japan. Are you not yourself conscripting the Japanese People into the rank of combatant?

Let's be SUPER CLEAR, since you PERSIST in deliberately trying to say that I said things which I DID NOT SAY, if you keep doing this, I will simply put you on ignore.

I have NEVER said that an invasion of Japan would've resulted in the entire population fighting back.

I HAVE said that if the USA tried to remove the Japanese Emperor from his position - WHICH IS A SEPERATE THING ENTIRELY - that the Japanese people would've continued the war.

These are two very different things. They are NOT the same.

Now, stop trying to make up fictional versions of things that I have said.

 

[Lovelynice]

I didn't write it, she did. If every able-bodied man, woman and child picked up a rifle and fought an invading Allied military, does that not make them combatants?

Yes it does...but only a homicidal maniac would go by the logic that it's okay to kill potential combatants.

By repeating the assertion that it is okay, you reveal yourself to be a complete fucking loon.

 

[Lovelynice]

False, and an outright lie. A - They are not Japanese documents and would thus not have the Imperial Seal on them. B - I posted two links to the IoS documents that had the signatures on them.

As I said a couple of posts ago, you are free to post the "real" IoS documents for our review.

Update: Here's another transcription of the IoS and wouldn't you know, it says the exact same fucking thing that all the rest do.

Oh, and it does make note of the presence of the Imperial Seal...on the credentials of the Japanese representatives, not the IoS itself.

What you just posted is again, not the real documents by a type written version of what's claimed to be written on them.

They also have this on them;

In witness whereof, We have hereunto set Our signature and caused the Great Seal of the Empire to be affixed. Given at Our Palace in Tokyo, this first day of the ninth month of the twentieth year of Syowa, being the two thousand six hundred and fifth year from the Accession of the Emperor Zinmu.

Seal of the Empire

Signed: H I R O H I T O



As anyone can see, the Seal of the Empire is supposed to be on the real documents, but NONE of the images that you have shown have this
Seal of the Empire on them...because they aren't the orginal document.

Since they aren't the original, what they say means nothing. It doesn't say what the real deal was.

 

[Lovelynice]

Oh, and I notice that you still have been trying to dance and dodge around admitting the fact that the US military deliberately targeted civilians and civilian installations.

 

[Gringao]

Let's be SUPER CLEAR, since you PERSIST in deliberately trying to say that I said things which I DID NOT SAY, if you keep doing this, I will simply put you on ignore.

I have NEVER said that an invasion of Japan would've resulted in the entire population fighting back.

I HAVE said that if the USA tried to remove the Japanese Emperor from his position - WHICH IS A SEPERATE THING ENTIRELY - that the Japanese people would've continued the war.

These are two very different things. They are NOT the same.

Now, stop trying to make up fictional versions of things that I have said.

I'm intrigued by this distinction you make. How would the average Jiro Sixpack know why the Americans are landing on his shore? Since the Imperial government lied to them in the first place - telling them the Americans would rape their women and kill their children - would you think it above them to claim that they were there to displace the Emperor in order to get the populace to fight?

Since the sticking point of the surrender was the status of the Emperor (and BTW, you still haven't answered what the status would have been had the Allies accepted the precondition), don't you think it would have been reasonable for the average Japanese to assume that the Americans meant to overthrow Hirohito and thus fight?

Put me on iggy if it makes you feel better, LN, but your argument you're riding on is shrinking like a piece of ice in the Caribbean.

 

[Gringao]

What you just posted is again, not the real documents by a type written version of what's claimed to be written on them.

They also have this on them;

In witness whereof, We have hereunto set Our signature and caused the Great Seal of the Empire to be affixed. Given at Our Palace in Tokyo, this first day of the ninth month of the twentieth year of Syowa, being the two thousand six hundred and fifth year from the Accession of the Emperor Zinmu.

Seal of the Empire

Signed: H I R O H I T O



As anyone can see, the Seal of the Empire is supposed to be on the real documents, but NONE of the images that you have shown have this
Seal of the Empire on them...because they aren't the orginal document.

Since they aren't the original, what they say means nothing. It doesn't say what the real deal was.

The documents I showed are the surrender documents, not the credentials of the Japanese representatives, which bore the seal. There is no reason for the Allied documents to bear the seal of the enemy.

Can you find some text of the IoS that differs from what I've posted, several times I might add?

 

[Gringao]

Oh, and I notice that you still have been trying to dance and dodge around admitting the fact that the US military deliberately targeted civilians and civilian installations.

If you will re-read what I've said, I agreed that they did.

 

[Lovelynice]

A bunch of idiots; Gringao, Ishmael, Stuponfucious, Miles, and NONE of them could deny one simple fact;
The US military deliberately attacked noncombatants and civilian installations.

And you still haven't been able to show otherwise.

 

[phrodeau]

Yes it does...but only a homicidal maniac would go by the logic that it's okay to kill potential combatants.

By repeating the assertion that it is okay, you reveal yourself to be a complete fucking loon.

The US lobbed bunker-busters at Saddam's last known position two Marches ago. Someone in power thinks it's OK.

 

[Lovelynice]

I'm intrigued by this distinction you make. How would the average Jiro Sixpack know why the Americans are landing on his shore? Since the Imperial government lied to them in the first place - telling them the Americans would rape their women and kill their children - would you think it above them to claim that they were there to displace the Emperor in order to get the populace to fight?

Not at all.

Oh and as a point of fact, American soldiers did commit an enormous number of rapes. 30,000 women were raped by American soldiers in the first 3 months of occupation in Kanagawa-ken (next to Tokyo) according to Japanese police records.

Since the sticking point of the surrender was the status of the Emperor (and BTW, you still haven't answered what the status would have been had the Allies accepted the precondition),

Let's go by VK's answer on that one.

Since the ONLY condition of surrender that was offered by the Japanese government right after the Potsdam Declaration, and repeatedly offered, even via the Russians (a transmission also intercepted by the USA's military intelligence and thus known to the USA government), was protection of the Emperor's status

and since as we all know the Japanese Emperor was maintained in the status of Emperor (he was NOT dethroned, executed, exiled, or anything similar), then the surrender condition that was in actuality accepted by the USA by their actions (and actions always mean a lot more than words written on any bit of paper)....then it's rather plain that the USA did not attempt in any way by their actions to make the surrender truly unconditional.

They only wrote unconditional on a piece of paper which means nothing since they did not by their actions actually abide by.

The Emperor remained Emperor.

don't you think it would have been reasonable for the average Japanese to assume that the Americans meant to overthrow Hirohito and thus fight?

No, not unless the USA actually tried to do so. Which they didn't. The Emperor was not overthrown.

So, by their actions, the surrender was in truth conditional, with the same exact condition being honoured by the USA as was requested by the Japanese government all along.

The US military dropped nuclear bombs on two cities full of civilians with the deliberate intention of killing hundreds of thousands of civilians and the deliberate destruction of civilian installations...and the excuse that it was necessary is shown as BS.

Put me on iggy if it makes you feel better, LN, but your argument you're riding on is shrinking like a piece of ice in the Caribbean.

Very imaginative but not at all true. Any fool can see that you're way of your depth and lost it ages ago even as you continue to drown in your own fiction of winning. LOL As I said, I will put you on ignore if you persist in trying make things up about what I said. Let's see if you can stick to avoiding such weird obsessions of yours in the future.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Yes, you're nuts.

WRONG !!! WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!



He's nutless. Get it straight.

 

[Lovelynice]

WRONG !!! WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!



He's nutless. Get it straight.

Okay, I admit it. You win. Gringao is nutless.

I don't hold it against him though as I'm nutless too

 

[Gringao]

Not at all.

Oh and as a point of fact, American soldiers did commit an enormous number of rapes. 30,000 women were raped by American soldiers in the first 3 months of occupation in Kanagawa-ken (next to Tokyo) according to Japanese police records.

One rape is, of course, one too many and the soldiers that commit them need to be prosecuted. You number appears to be, however, orders of magnitude high from the numbers I've encountered, roughly 1,350 in 10 weeks.

While Hirohito may not have been exiled, dethroned, etc., he was utterly toothless in his title. It is entirely reasonable to assume that what the preconditions the Japanese wanted to attach to their surrender meant that the Emperor would not be thus defanged. Only by unconditional surrender and the explicit omission of any demands pertaining to the Emperor and his status could Hirohito's figurehead status come about.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Y'all let me know when you figure out which side was more wrong.

 

[phrodeau]

(edited)They only wrote unconditional on a piece of paper which means nothing since they did not by their actions actually abide by.

So the whole point of bringing up the actual document is moot, then.

You sure made a fuss over it.

 

[ButterPixie]

While Hirohito may not have been exiled, dethroned, etc., he was utterly toothless in his title. It is entirely reasonable to assume that what the preconditions the Japanese wanted to attach to their surrender meant that the Emperor would not be thus defanged. Only by unconditional surrender and the explicit omission of any demands pertaining to the Emperor and his status could Hirohito's figurehead status come about.

Hirohito never had any real power.

He already was a figurehead, even if according to the Japanese constitution he was supposed to have supreme power, it was in fact just a figurehead of sacred status.

It's old business of unwritten rules and real life.

What was written in the Japanese constitution wasn't the true rule of the real situation.

This doesn't only happen in Japan, btw, it happens everywhere. We make contracts that have details that aren't written down, but are only verbal agreements, yet these verbal agreements are still legal and court-cases have been fought over them, with the terms of the verbal agreement standing as a legal contract. I think what Lovelynice has been saying in her own way is that there was a verbal agreement between the leaders of the Japanese government and the representatives of the government of the USA. This verbal agreement was an agreement to protect the status of the Japanese emperor.

Douglas Macarthur probably made the agreement verbally, and it would explain why he argued so strongly for the emperor's status to be protected.

 

[Lovelynice]

One rape is, of course, one too many and the soldiers that commit them need to be prosecuted. You number appears to be, however, orders of magnitude high from the numbers I've encountered, roughly 1,350 in 10 weeks.

You're talking about Okinawa. I'm not. The statistic that I mentioned (30,000+ rapes committed by American soldiers) is the number for Kanagawa-ken according to the Japanese police for the first 3 months of occupation.

American soldiers acted equally deplorably when they occupied Germany too; only the Russians were worse.

While Hirohito may not have been exiled, dethroned, etc., he was utterly toothless in his title.

He already was.

Your ignorance about the Emperor's power seems to be borne of US war-time propaganda. Did you bother to properly do research on the subject at all? I don't think so. Emperor Hirohito did not "rule". His enitire life had been dictated to by others, and when the military took over the government, Emperor Hirohito became only a "rubber stamp" figure with no authority on his own. He was already only a figurehead.

You should study also on Emperor Hirohito's childhood and his reign. His father had power, but it was weaker than his father before him. Hirohito never had real authority on his own, except on paper, and when the military took control he had none. They said that they were doing things in his name, but they never let him speak to the public, and until that day when he was asked to announce the surrender to the people of Japan, almost no Japanese outside those that controlled his life had ever heard him speak. He spoke with a reedy high pitched small voice that came from being browbeaten and powerless his entire life. The military and government claimed to do things in his name, but they never asked him his oppinion - they told him "This is the way it is, this is what we are going to do", and he had no choice but to abide by it.

Emperor Hirohito's father went mad you know, long before Hirohito ascended to the Chrysanthenum Throne in 1926 at the age of 25. It was all that inbreeding and resulting problems. Hirohito was made Prince-Regent when he was only 23 years old, so he was easily dominated by the retainers of the Imperial Household, the Lord-Keeper, and members of the government. Think about it; he was only half their age.

Some relevant excerpts from the Tokyo Trial;

Kido Koichi, Lord Keeper, explained how powerless the Emperor really was. The prosecutors asked him that: “the Emperor has the real power of
saying, ‘how about doing this?’ That is not paper power; that is
real?” Kido answered that: “But the Imperial power is restricted in
the sense that the – that His Majesty the Emperor administers the
affairs of government with the assistance and on the advice of
ministers of state.”

Finally, the prosecutor asked a more direct
question that: “Are you intending to say that if the cabinet agreed
upon war the Emperor of Japan would have no actual power to
prevent it?” Without hesitation, Kido replied, “Yes, the Emperor had
no power to prevent it.”

Tojo Hideki, wartime Prime Minister, agreed with Kido Koichi (Lord Keeper), that the Emperor had no real power, testifying that: “The Emperor studiously
refrained from placing a veto upon any final decision made by the
cabinet and the supreme command on their responsibility.” He further
explained that even the Emperor’s own wishes and suggestions “were
issued on the recommendation of the Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal.”
He concluded that:
Summing it up, the Emperor had no free choice from
the governmental structure setting up the Cabinet
and the Supreme Command. He was not in a position
to reject the recommendations and advice of the
Cabinet and High Command.


Basically, he was just a figurehead, so nothing changed in his status.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

You're talking about Okinawa. I'm not. The statistic that I mentioned (30,000+ rapes committed by American soldiers) is the number for Kanagawa-ken according to the Japanese police for the first 3 months of occupation.

That ain't shit. Wait'll you hear what's going on in Iraq. I predict that a lot of Iraqi-American babies will be coming back to the States looking for their daddies...

 

[Gringao]

You're talking about Okinawa. I'm not. The statistic that I mentioned (30,000+ rapes committed by American soldiers) is the number for Kanagawa-ken according to the Japanese police for the first 3 months of occupation.

No, I searched "Kanagawa" and got the number (I'm going from memory here) of 1,326 rapes in 10 weeks. 1,326 too many, I'll grant you, but short of your sensationalist figure.

He already was.

I realize that Tojo held more tactical political power than Hirohito and that the Emperor was most likely manipulated by Tojo's cabal. But it's not as if he was powerless politically. There wasn't a huge battle over the recording he made to be broadcast to the Japanese people for nothing. How many colonels committed seppuku - 200? 300?

I'll agree that it was a smart and most likely necessary thing MacArthur did to permit the Emperor to retain his position. But it was also a smart and necessary thing to make sure going in that the Emperor bowed to him.

 

[ButterPixie]

There have been british soldiers doing the same thing.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

There have been british soldiers doing the same thing.

Doesn't make America any more right.

We beat the Brits twice, then saved their asses in WW-II, we're better than them... right? Well, not any more, thanks to Dubya...

 

[Weenieschnitzel]

Look back some houndreds of years. Christians sloughtered more people than anyone else. Crusades, Witch-burning, Inquisition...

I am sure about, taht some (un)logical thinking persons will give you an explanation that this is something different.

and doing that is weird.

 

[Silvergirl]

I realize that Tojo held more tactical political power than Hirohito and that the Emperor was most likely manipulated by Tojo's cabal. But it's not as if he was powerless politically. There wasn't a huge battle over the recording he made to be broadcast to the Japanese people for nothing. How many colonels committed seppuku - 200? 300?
.

I think you're being confused by wartime propaganda. Hirohito was only a figurehead. This is how the Imperial Household (called the Kunaicho) operates, and has operated for centuries in regards to the Imperial Family and their line;

The oppinions of the Emperor are not allowed to be mentioned to anyone, he's not supposed to have any oppinion about anything. He's merely there and is beyond all material matters, being too sacred to bother with such things. Anyone who says something like "The Emperor said this" is immediately reprimanded very severely and gagged. The Imperial Household has always controlled the Emperors, and everything in their daily lives is restricted. It has been like this for centuries, aand it is doubtful that even after the Meiji Restoration and the constitution that *on paper* made the Emperor as "supreme ruler", that any of the Emperors had any real power of their own despite what so many outsiders seem to think or were told.

Japanese people know all this as general knowledge, but in the USA, UK, and Australia, the power of the Japanese emperors was misrepresented by wartime propaganda. That wartime propaganda has been distorting the perception of the Japanese emperors in the West for decades since. They aren't like the royal family of England, and they don't have real power. It's most likely that when Hirohito made the announcement of Japan's surrender, it had to be with authorisation from the Kunaicho (the Imperial Household).