Why is it that every man . . .

[mismused]

delete

 

[rgraham666]

Well, excuse the living fuck out of me!

 

[Zeb_Carter]

And if you blow in her nose hard enough at birth she will become a he.

 

[Recidiva]

I've never thought this way, so it isn't true for me and never made sense when someone said it, so I dismissed it.

 

[Retrieval]

Have you actually got a point? from what I can tell from your post your quoting conclusions that people came to a long time ago, the people that came to those conclusions are dead and buried.
So I repeat...have you actually got a point?

 

[cantdog]

Actually, the best-researched answer to this is that your sources are not ancient enough.

Joe Campbell is the fella you want to read. It isn't easy, but it is fascinating once you get into the thing. It's a four-volume work, The Masks of God, but the answer to your question is in the first book. The older view was entirely matriarchal, and the deity the female principle, the generatrix of life. The male thing is a recent revolution, and it is NOT universal, even now. Primitive Mythology is the title. Some listings have it "The Masks of God: Primitive Mythology" Some list "Primitive Mythology" as the title and use "the Masks of God" as a subtitle.

 

[3113]

Okay, so why is it that every man is first a woman ? Why is evey man ever made a woman first?

I'm not quite sure I understand the question. You've made this very strange corollary: at the microsopic level, prior to anyone without modern, scientific knowledge and instruments knowing, a fetus starts out as XX. Female.

You then ask--if I'm understanding this and I'm not at all sure I am--why, given this, have men historically been anti-woman, placing the female as not only inferior but as an incomplete man.

You might as well ask, why people ever thought the Earth was flat when clearly it never has been.

Connecting the two makes no sense at all. Now, if you'd care to quote MODERN day men saying that women are incomplete men who create semen and have an undropped penis, THEN you can ask why they'd think this given that science has clearly shown otherwise.

 

[Pure]

it is quite simple, mismused,

since men have written the standards of perfection,
they come out more nearly perfect.

 

[cantdog]

But it wasn't always so. The pendulum may yet swing back.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

To quote that famous sage and intellectual, Archie Bunker, "The bible proves man was made in God's image. Then women were made from a rib. That's a cheaper cut." LMFAO

 

[CharleyH]

Since time immemorial, men have always been considered the predominant sex, perfection, if you will, sexually, as well as every other way, and women . . . well, inferior?

From antiquity, Ariistotle and before (the bible even says Eve was made from a rib taken from Adam), males were males because they had sufficient "heat." Women were women because they lacked enough of this heat that it took to make men (ergo: inferior). Galen said:

"Now just as mankind is the most perfect of all animals, so within mankind, the man is more perfect than the woman, and the reason for his perfection is his excess heat, for heat is Nature's primary instrument."

On occasion, a woman could get too hot, and it caused her to become a man! Such was said to be a servant of France's King Charles IX.

Girls were admonished not to stretch their legs too far for fear of becoming a boy (you see, it was thought that since there was insufficient heat in women, the penis didn't drop, and thus the vagina was created -- it is an inverted penis).

Women were also said to produce semen (all that is a man is inverted in a woman, don't you see, though less so). Galen went on to say:

"Forthwith of course the female must have smaller, less perfect testes, and the semen generated in them must be scantier, colder and wetter (for these things too follow of necessity from the deficent heat)."

Women were ever like sexual vampires. De Secretis Mulierum (Women's Secrets), a medieval medical compendium still popular in the eighteenth century, warns:

"The more women have sexual intercourse, the stronger they become, because they are made hot by the motion that the man makes during coitus [well, they got that part right]. Further, male sperm is hot because it is of the sme nature as air and when it is received by the woman it warms her entire body, so women are strengthened by this heat. On the other hand,men who have sex frequently are weakened by this act because they become exceedingly dried out."

Other than that Eve was made by taking one of Adam's ribs, I won't go into what religion(s) say, other than as one preacher was recently said to have quoted, "Women are to remain silent in the church," or something like that, and dismissed a Sunday school teacher just for being a woman, never mind that she had taught for many decades.

Oh, and remember Liar's thread on how a woman should behave toward, and for her husband (whose problems were much greater than hers, etc.)?

Okay, so why is it that every man is first a woman ? Why is evey man ever made a woman first?

PW/OC.

what an amazing post, m.. Mistake? The bible says the her was another created before Eve - Judaism does speak of Lilith? One might ask in the 'history' of the Christian bible - who was actually stronger in person? Certainly NOT Adam. What a fucking wimp and tattle tale!

 

[Tom Collins]

what an amazing post, m.. Mistake? The bible says the her was another created before Eve - Judaism does speak of Lilith? One might ask in the 'history' of the Christian bible - who was actually stronger in person? Certainly NOT Adam. What a fucking wimp and tattle tale!

Hate to be a party pooper, Charlie, but Lilith was created the same way that Adam was, formed of earth and animated. Created to be his equal partner and she got kicked out of Eden, turned into a demon and dropped into Hell because Adam whined to God when she didn't feel like putting out for him.

Leastwise, that's the story as I've heard it.

 

[kendo1]

Hate to be a party pooper, Charlie, but Lilith was created the same way that Adam was, formed of earth and animated. Created to be his equal partner and she got kicked out of Eden, turned into a demon and dropped into Hell because Adam whined to God when she didn't feel like putting out for him.

Leastwise, that's the story as I've heard it.

Yep. I heard she did great blowjobs.

Eve always had headaches.

*nods*

 

[bashfull]

To paraphrase Heinlien ( I think I mispelled his name):

"Women who insist on equality are losing out" i.e. women are better then men.

 

[Recidiva]

To paraphrase Heinlien ( I think I mispelled his name):

"Women who insist on equality are losing out" i.e. women are better then men.

Well, men could insist on giving birth, but it ain't happening. Equality has some hitches.

 

[Guest]

.....

 

[Tom Collins]

My recommendation is to stop reading the bible and other religious texts based on it (as well as the ones it was based on) and go find the REAL facts. There have been a lot of matriarchal societies.

The fact remains, though, that untill men and women stop bickering about dominant genders and learn to deal with each other as equals there will always be these misconceptions.

Studly dragon. And smart too.

 

[Guest]

Not always, mismused. Here's one example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_civilization

In Minoan art, women vastly outnumber men[1]. Women are shown seated on thrones, and in commanding positions. Women are often saluted by people and/or animals. Whereas depictions exist of men showing deference to women, not one shows women deferring to men. Unlike their contemporaries, who possessed obvious “strong-man” male rulers, the Minoans show almost no trace of male rule at all.

"In Minoan imagery ... female figures seem preeminent. Males, to be sure, appear on frescoed walls, engraved sealstones, and gold rings and in small-scale statuary, but by and large these are not the bearded kings and warriors of Egypt and the ancient Near East. They are youths, who often, though not always, attend a dominant female..."[2]

According to Jacquetta Hawkes, “The absence of … manifestations of the all-powerful male ruler that are so widespread at this time and in this stage of cultural development as to be almost universal, is one of the reasons for supposing that the occupants of Minoan thrones may have been queens” [3] “In the scenes from the seal stones, not only is the Goddess always the central figure, being served and honored in a variety of ways; she is sometimes shown seated on a throne. Supposing that a king did rule as consort of the Goddess, one would expect at the very least that at the royal court, which elsewhere, in Egypt and the Orient, was seen as the human reflection of the divine order, there would have been a throne for the queen as the counterpart of the Goddess. Yet in the sacred room at Knossos, and apparently also in the state apartment in the residential quarter, the throne stood single and alone.”[4]

Like Egyptian rulers, Minoan queens may have had divine status:

“… t is not impossible that Minoan Crete was run by women…. n the so-called Camp Stool Fresco from Knossos, which depicts women sitting on stools and toasting each other, the principal figure (known as La Parisienne since the days of Evans) is painted twice the size of the others – a clear sign of importance and probably of divinity, to judge from Egyptian art, where the divine pharaoh is regularly shown in this way” [5].

 

[CharleyH]

Not always, mismused. Here's one example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_civilization

In Minoan art, women vastly outnumber men[1]. Women are shown seated on thrones, and in commanding positions. Women are often saluted by people and/or animals. Whereas depictions exist of men showing deference to women, not one shows women deferring to men. Unlike their contemporaries, who possessed obvious “strong-man” male rulers, the Minoans show almost no trace of male rule at all.

"In Minoan imagery ... female figures seem preeminent. Males, to be sure, appear on frescoed walls, engraved sealstones, and gold rings and in small-scale statuary, but by and large these are not the bearded kings and warriors of Egypt and the ancient Near East. They are youths, who often, though not always, attend a dominant female..."[2]

According to Jacquetta Hawkes, “The absence of … manifestations of the all-powerful male ruler that are so widespread at this time and in this stage of cultural development as to be almost universal, is one of the reasons for supposing that the occupants of Minoan thrones may have been queens” [3] “In the scenes from the seal stones, not only is the Goddess always the central figure, being served and honored in a variety of ways; she is sometimes shown seated on a throne. Supposing that a king did rule as consort of the Goddess, one would expect at the very least that at the royal court, which elsewhere, in Egypt and the Orient, was seen as the human reflection of the divine order, there would have been a throne for the queen as the counterpart of the Goddess. Yet in the sacred room at Knossos, and apparently also in the state apartment in the residential quarter, the throne stood single and alone.”[4]

Like Egyptian rulers, Minoan queens may have had divine status:

“… t is not impossible that Minoan Crete was run by women…. n the so-called Camp Stool Fresco from Knossos, which depicts women sitting on stools and toasting each other, the principal figure (known as La Parisienne since the days of Evans) is painted twice the size of the others – a clear sign of importance and probably of divinity, to judge from Egyptian art, where the divine pharaoh is regularly shown in this way” [5].

What a freaking sad history we women have.

 

[Stella_Omega]

My recommendation is to stop reading the bible and other religious texts based on it (as well as the ones it was based on) and go find the REAL facts. There have been a lot of matriarchal societies.

The fact remains, though, that untill men and women stop bickering about dominant genders and learn to deal with each other as equals there will always be these misconceptions.

And many of these matriarchal societies were in conflict with the Hebrew tribes, don't forget. Reading the bible with some historical knowledge can open your eyes to an awful lot of subtext.
A great deal of the denigration of women to be read in the Old Testament is seen as political propaganda, and nothing more; the "Painted Woman" Jezebel was a mighty Queen., for instance, who was assasinated.

When you ask some Muslims why they treat their women so badly, they will tell you; "Because women used to be on top, and we have to make sure they don't get on top of us again." This is a direct quote from someone I talked to- gave me the shudders to hear him, an educated and pleasent man, say so.

 

[3113]

Hate to be a party pooper, Charlie, but Lilith was created the same way that Adam was, formed of earth and animated. Created to be his equal partner and she got kicked out of Eden, turned into a demon and dropped into Hell because Adam whined to God when she didn't feel like putting out for him.

Leastwise, that's the story as I've heard it.

The only problem, TC, is that Lilith is not in the Bible. She's used to explain this very strange bit at the beginning of the bible about God(s) (that plural is a possiblity--it appears all over Genesis) creating "Man and Woman." It is after this that God (singular) creates Adam and Eve. Now, later, monotheistic Jews (we're talking MUCH later, like Middle Ages), had to explain what this meant and came up with the Lilith explaination. This is because the REAL explaination was not so comfortable....

The REAL explaination is that ancient Judiasm had no problem at all with believing that there were many gods. So, the GODS made heaven, earth, man and woman. But Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews, went off and created this little garden and created his own special man and woman (Adam and Eve). Snake story happens, he evicts them. They have kids, Cain kills Abel....and then goes to the Land of Nod and finds a wife.

See? That one really messed with all the Monothesits heads. THERE are people outside of Eden. That's how Cain finds a wife, and later Seth (Adam & Eve's son #3) finds a wife, and all his sons find wives. Becuase the GODS (plural) created other men and women.

Only snotty Yahweh had to have his own tribe--and this is the story of HIS particular people, decended from Adam and Eve. Namely, the Hebrews. This is why the Egyptian Priests in Egypt were able to make snakes of their staffs just like Moses. 'Cause they had gods, too. Those Egyptian got eaten up by Moses' snakes, proving Yahweh was more powerful than the gods of Egypt (neener-neener-neener!). Pharoah is a living god, and when Moses wins over him, he proves his God more powerful than the Egyptian god.

The Hebrews haven't a single problem with believing that there are other gods of other people. And Yahweh has no problem acknowledging that those other gods exist either. He just wants to make sure HIS people put HIM first. So, no golden calf (after all, what the fuck would it matter if there was only one god? Why not pray to him in the form of a calf? But it makes a LOT of sense if you remember that the Egyptians worshiped a calf as god. Now we're talking one god over another!).

That's what "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" means in the commandments. NOT "there is only one God period and it's me!" but "I come first...then you can be nice to other gods."

Long-and-short, nice as the Lilith myth is, it's just a story used by the monotheistic patriarchy to explain away that little hiccup, the one which reminds everyone that the Jews did not always believe that there was only one god in existence and that all humankind was descended from Adam and Eve...just that there was one god that they, in particular, belonged to and had to worship and that THEY were decided from Adam and Eve.

 

[amicus]

...amicus lurks and giggles...

 

[NoJo]

This thread deserves a long reply, and now is not the time.

For now: The "default" gender is female -- there is an additional process in embryonic development which "branches away" from the core developmental process, to produce male organisms. Genders can, and surprisingly often do in fact, change during puberty.

 

[Carmenica Diaz]

This entire thread is like morning tea in the university staffroom. Just need someone to complain about tenure next.

 

[CharleyH]

This thread deserves a long reply, and now is not the time.

For now: The "default" gender is female -- there is an additional process in embryonic development which "branches away" from the core developmental process, to produce male organisms. Genders can, and surprisingly often do in fact, change during puberty.

wonderful