Why I quit feeding the local baby birds

[KillerMuffin]

I quit giving feedback because there was no paying it forward. Few people, may 5 or 6 out the doezens that come to this board ever give feedback. They beg and they plead and they flirt for it, but they never return it.

It's all about taking for most of the people here. No one cares about anyone but themselves on this board and it's disgusting.

I hear this pure piece of bullshit more often than I care to tolerate:

"I can't give feedback, I don't know enough, I'm not qualified, I'm not a good writer, {name your excuse here}."

Do people who say this actually believe that? Are they really that dumb? Writers don't give feedback to anyone. Readers give feedback. The reader is the person who opens a story and goes through it. The reader is the person who decides if they want to read past paragraph one or move on to another story.

There are two parts to everyone who comes here begging for feedback, the writer and the reader. If you have the capacity to open up a story, read it, and decide if you like it or not, you have the capacity to give feedback.

It's as simple as that. For those few people who do give feedback, you're tops in my book and you're deserving of great feedback karma. For those of you who just ask for feedback and never give it for whatever rationalization you come up with, you're just not worth the effort anymore.

I'm tired of feeding ingrates.

I'm not normally this nastily cynical, but this forum constantly disillusions me. *sighs*

 

[horny_giraffe]

You may be naive, but you aren't stupid.

 

[kristydoll]

I never mind giving feedback when I have time to read the stories. But here - short feedback is what you get from me. Once the story is out there, there is not much sense offering "editing" advice.

Still, I do try to point out one or two things that I liked, or I didn't. The only downside is that some are only looking for praise. If you ask for feedback, you have to expect the good and the criticisms.

My advice, if you ask, graciously accept what you got back. Don't try to defend your work or explain why you did something. You can't learn anything that way - and it pretty much negates asking for feedback.

Everyone has their own tastes, accept that you won't please everyone. But accept what you asked for.

kristy

 

[sirhugs]

To KM

That's really too bad, truly sad, cause you write well, but also gave great feedback. I started giving feedback as payback the day I first asked for it, and have given more , I hope, than I got.

My gripe is the writers that mean " praise" , not feedback. I agree with kd on that.

 

[Whispersecret]

My advice, if you ask, graciously accept what you got back. Don't try to defend your work or explain why you did something. You can't learn anything that way - and it pretty much negates asking for feedback.

I disagree, kristy. I think it can be highly beneficial to enter a dialogue with someone else. While I don't advocate breaking out the armor and shields in defense, I think explaining why you wrote something a certain way can be enlightening. I was talking with graymouse about her 500 words, and she helped me realize something about sighing words. Learning can and does come from discussion.

Also, even if your already posted story can't be improved by "negative" feedback, your future stories could.

Yeah, I hate the "I'm not a real writer" excuse too, KM, but you gotta look at it from the other side. I KNOW you've seen when someone criticizes a story and the writer then fires back, "Well, who are YOU to tell me that? Where are YOUR stories?"

I guess the truth is, honest criticism is as hard to offer as it is to receive.

I think it's funny that the baby birds are so self-centered that they never even venture out of their own threads. If they did, they'd see that I'm offering feedback to anyone who asks. But, then again, as kristydoll and sirhugs said, maybe they're not actually interested in criticism as much as praise.

Personally, there's nothing wrong with wanting praise. We're all human. However, if you ask for feedback, you have to be prepared to get the bad with the good. And perhaps if you get no feedback, it's because people didn't like it and don't want to have to tell you so.

 

[kristydoll]

I disagree, kristy. I think it can be highly beneficial to enter a dialogue with someone else. While I don't advocate breaking out the armor and shields in defense, I think explaining why you wrote something a certain way can be enlightening. I was talking with graymouse about her 500 words, and she helped me realize something about sighing words. Learning can and does come from discussion.

Whispersecret - I do agree with you here. Discussion can be a very valuable tool to improvement. I just find when a writer starts "defending", they stop listening. This is something I have had to learn. I have an awesome editor but I never reply to his critiques right away. I need that first day to get very angry about someone destroying all my hard work, episodes to vent and cry, and then, and only then am I ready to logically go through all the comments and incorporate the advice given. When I am not in my "defensive" mood of my precious work, am I truly able to learn and become better.

Also, even if your already posted story can't be improved by "negative" feedback, your future stories could.

Again, I totally agree. I was not clear, was just stating the difference for me between giving "feedback" and "editing". I learn a lot from all feedback, good and bad, and try to always incorporate it into my new writing.

kristy

 

[Whispersecret]

We're cool, kristy.

I, too, need that day or so to get over the sting. If you don't take the time to distance yourself emotionally from the criticism, you can't look at it objectively.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION

It would be nice if folks could only qualify for feedback after giving feedback-a rule KM has tried to impose on the underused SDC. I'm convinced that when it comes to critiques, it's often more helpful to give than receive. Many writers, especially new ones, seem to forget that non-grammar input is the "final word" but just the subjective opinions and advice they requested and other writers are providing free-of-charge.

My last post on this board quickly slipped off the front page with little or no feedback. That was a let-down, but it didn't cost me a thing. And while my current post has 91 views but only one reply that one critique, from "the bragis" (Alex), was worth more than several pages of BS, anon feedback, and mindless atta-boys.

As for defensive and even hostile replies, I just take those rude, insecure folks off my Christmas card list, (that's a joke, folks) and forget about giving them any more of my time.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[PaulX35]

Hope you will continue

I'm fairly new here, and among the things I have most enjoyed so far is the feedback section. I try to give feedback myself as much as possible, even when some people have already come up with similar suggestions. On every site there are more lurkers and readers than there are people who take the time to carefully read and say sensible things. They should be praised and cherished, and I do that to you now, hoping it might make you reconsider.

 

[the_bragis]

Killer Muffin, I noticed your absence, and I am sorry you have chosen to not longer give feedback. Personally I found your comments on everyone's storys always very helpful.

Once the story is out there, there is not much sense offering "editing" advice.

kristy, I must disagree with you there. I'm the kind of person who will make the same stupid mistakes in my writing over and over again, until someone slaps me over the side of my head and tellls me to stop.

Of course if it's a mistake that is really going to bug you or your readers, you can always re-submit your corrected story.

My gripe is the writers that mean " praise" , not feedback.

sirhugs... mine too.

Have a great day,

Alex (fem).

 

[damppanties]

So what purpose does this post serve KM?? You give feedback or you don't. Is starting a thread going to get more people to give feedback?

 

[kristydoll]

kristy, I must disagree with you there. I'm the kind of person who will make the same stupid mistakes in my writing over and over again, until someone slaps me over the side of my head and tellls me to stop.

Okay, I do understand this - I do *grins* I just wonder how many people are really looking for this. I know many are, but like stated in this thread, some only want the praise.

I just need to clarify - when I say "editing", I usually mean that I can pick every little word that doesn't seem "right". I can also be very picky and critical. Usually, after its posted, that is not the time for being that critical - I usually look at it as if I enjoyed or not, why or why not. Editing, to me, is done beforehand - but trust me, I do understand what you were saying *smiles*

I guess the question is...how much do people really want to hear when asking for "feedback"....I am interested now.

kristy

 

[Whispersecret]

When I get a critique from a fellow author, I want everything they can throw at me. Even little, tiny nit-picking shit. I'm serious. But not everyone feels that way.

I'm interested too, in hearing what people want when they ask for "feedback."

When I GIVE a critique, I usually hold back (unless the writer wants me to do differently.) As you may have guessed, I am extremely detail oriented when it comes to writing, but if I pointed out every single word or awkwardly structured sentence, the writer's eyes would glaze over and what would be the point? My goal is to pick the things that jump out the most. It's always a tricky balancing act to choose what to comment on. I think that most people learn in small increments and it's best not to overwhelm them with the minutia (sp?).

 

[BigTexan]

I was giving feedback here too, but a few nasty PM's has made me think twice about it.

I'll still give feedback, but now I will only give it to people who make me feel like they are mature enough to handle it. And only if I can find something - anything- good in their story. That way I'll be able to say something nice among all the bad stuff.

Also, giving feedback is a lot more work than just reading. People who receive honest detailed feedback should be appreciative. PM'ing back and calling the person who took the time to give feedback a "moron" or "a fucking queer" is not the best way to show appreciation.

Thanks KM, I enjoyed this thread and it gave me a place to vent a little.

BigTexan

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Available

I'm available fvor feedback, critique, and curmudgeonly opinions. I'm a son-of-a-bitch critic, but then I'm no harder on anyone than I am on myself.

I don't do scat or waste-play stories. I don't care for incest or adult baby stuff. And I won't look at bestiality, violent rape or pedophilia. Aside from that, I'm available.


---dr.M.

 

[Justin_Thyme]

Feeding the local baby birds

WOW, take a few days away from Lit and the boards and look what I find upon my return...
I tend to follow the Story Feedback threads but send feedback (with my identity) via the anonymous feedback blocks. Sometimes my comments are even acknowledged, more often they are not! I haven't attempted seeking feedback by posting a thread announcing a newly posted story. Not certain why, just haven't. It may be that I'm not certain what my motive in seeking specific feedback would be. Probably to have my ego tweeked and I'm sure that is a poor reason, indeed, to go out begging for feedback.
Anyhow, I have appreciated and responded to unsought feedback but don't believe, except for one or two exceptions, I have ever received words that provided help in avoiding repeating my mistakes.
So, yes, my ego has been pumped a number of times and I continue to bumble along, learning by reading these threads

Justin

 

[Madame Manga]

I was giving feedback here too, but a few nasty PM's has made me think twice about it.

BigTexan

BigTexan, you have been giving some solid, well-thought-out feedback in a number of threads. Since I gave you crit, I was interested to see how you'd pay that forward, and you have, in spades. Good work. I'm damn sorry that greedy, ungrateful morons exist and that they took their inadequacies out on you.

Frankly, when anyone who got crit from you subsequently sent you hate mail, you should have posted it on their begging threads. That would warn all other would-be helpers not to cast their pearls before swine. ;-)

MM

 

[Whispersecret]

Frankly, when anyone who got crit from you subsequently sent you hate mail, you should have posted it on their begging threads. That would warn all other would-be helpers not to cast their pearls before swine. ;-)

MM

Good idea. (Except for the fact that I'm not sure the Terms of Service allow that.) Those jerks should realize that they're ruining it for other people besides themselves. Big Texan has been GREAT in giving lots of specific feedback. It would be a shame if he quit because of a couple of ingrates.

 

[Madame Manga]

Good idea. (Except for the fact that I'm not sure the Terms of Service allow that.) Those jerks should realize that they're ruining it for other people besides themselves. Big Texan has been GREAT in giving lots of specific feedback. It would be a shame if he quit because of a couple of ingrates.

The TOS does mention private messages, so apparently posting them verbatim is not kosher. OK, kiddies, do not do what I said to do. Paraphrase 'em instead. ;-)

MM

 

[Just_John1]

All is not lost Killer Muffin

Not all of us are typically comfortable in giving feedback here in the open forum. I'll see what is going on here and most often will respond to the author in an Email (With return addy by the way). I've developed some pretty decent friendships this way.

I agree that feedback isn't just typing Gee, that was great. I think the authors deserve a little more than that, but it should be a labor of love so to speak. There's some really great stuff written here, there's also some not so good stuff. I also only respond to stuff I can write something positive about. It doesn't have to be nothing but positive but I like to finish a critique with something positive.

The standard that I hold my reviews to is yours Killer muffin. Your reviews are well thought out, technically at a level which I find above my head, well written and very even handed. You reward for the good while you chastise for the incorrect, with a teaching style. I will try to come out from under the rock that I've been hiding and respond a little more often here, in the open forum. Thanks for the wake up call.

 

[KillerMuffin]

So what purpose does this post serve KM?? You give feedback or you don't. Is starting a thread going to get more people to give feedback?

I posted this. I feel better.




Read more into it if you want to, though. I like to fight.

 

[Zaudika]

So what purpose does this post serve KM?? You give feedback or you don't. Is starting a thread going to get more people to give feedback?

I personally kind of feel that the post the KM made, and another thread that was started awhile ago on this same subject, was a good one. I do feel that starting a thread on this subject does cause more people to give feedback, or at least it does for a little while. Just adding my opinion there... ...

I've posted only one story on Lit. so far, and I've read several, given feedback on a few.

I really have always enjoyed reading your feedback KM, there's been times I've seen it from you and others, that it helps me with making changes to things that I do in my own writing. Even when its not on a story that I've posted. I'm one of the many that will also miss seeing yours.

Another note to make about this.. is I've found in the past when I come across a lot of new stories, if there's already been a great deal of feedback, sometimes there's not any that I can make. I don't know if this makes much sense..... I guess pretty much what I'm trying to say is that sometimes I don't give the feedback because all of the things I've noticed, someone else has already mentioned. This may be a fault on my part...... perhaps it *would* be better to go ahead and restate what's already been said...... so it makes a bigger impact on the writer?.... Hmm.. just some thoughts..

Also... I have to add to the "praise" instead of "feedback" comment.... also something that bothers me. I'll definitely add my request that people who post here for feedback...... please do just that.. and take the feedback in a respectful way. I personally in the time I've been here.... (and I know there's sure to have been some) .... have never seen someone come on the Feedback Forum and say something around the lines of "Your story fucking sucks".... in a rude and irritating way.... (though this does happen through PM's at times) . The point is.. if someone takes the time out of their day to read your story and give some pointers that could or could not help with improving your skill. Take it well... and for gawd's sake, say thank you...

 

[the_bragis]

Big Tex,

Madame Magan is right, I have read your postings, and your feedback is valuable. So, I hope I will see more soon. Well actually anytime anyone takes the trouble to read and respond to a story with feedback it's good isn't it?

Regarding the nasty private messages you received. Well Tex, I have learnt to read between the lines in here. "I would appreciate your honest opinions and feedback" usually means - I would appreciate your honest opinions and feedback. Now on the other hand, posts like, " I have received such great feedback already, and I was just wondering what you guys think?" usually means - and I would really love some more of the same. And I usuallyavoid those. Of course most are somewhere in between, and are just looking for a bit of both.

kristy,

We're cool too.

Have a good day,

Alex (fem).

 

[damppanties]

I posted this. I feel better.




Read more into it if you want to, though. I like to fight.

Nope, I don't want to fight. Mine was a bad post really, but I was feeling mean. Anyway... what I meant to say was that stopping the feedback you give or posting something like this doesn't help anything. I know you do a lot for Lit, SDC is one such effort.

There are some people who keep this board going and there are many who just take and never think of giving back to it. So are you going to stop just because someone else doesn't contribute?

 

[NorthwestRain]

I've got two things to say on this subject.
1. If you read a story, that is, really read it, not just skim through it, you should always give feedback.

and
2. My God KillerMuffin, how much free time do you have!?