Why I don't like your story

[XerXesXu]

I looked up the quoted passage. It’s the opening to Ch 16 of a 17 chapter story, each chapter being posted and rated separately. The 4.81 rating was for Ch 16 where a sexually experienced husband introduces his virginal wife to the joys of the marital bed.

‘I can’t read your story because I don’t like your writing style’ may have been a less provocative post heading.

Had the OP described why, for him, the original passage erected barriers to readability, and how he crafted his rewrite to remove those barriers, like Henry, we would have had something to chew on.

 

[sr71plt]

Had the OP described why, for him, the original passage erected barriers to readability, and how he crafted his rewrite to remove those barriers, like Henry, we would have had something to chew on.

The point I would make is that not everyone is writing for the OP, so there's no reason to post what the OP likes/doesn't at all (although we have a lot of folks here doing that). There are plenty enough of stories at Lit. to satisfy OP, who should just go looking for them.

 

[latenttalent]

I preferred the original version compared to your 'superior edit.'

By a country mile.


A little bit harsh too picking out an excerpt from somebody who probably enjoys writing and does their best... to savage?



If the author of the original is reading.... well done!

 

[DwellerDark]

I don't really feel like one version is superior to the other. The one has more dialogue and sounds a bit more rape-y, but otherwise they're both okay.

I think the OP was probably misunderstood, though the thread title didn't help much. It would be an interesting exercise to "rewrite" others' passages in our own styles, though. My version would probably be sadder and less sexy.

 

[sr71plt]

Misunderstood? I thought it was pretty obvious that the OP was saying he wanted to read nonconsent stories, not reluctance stories. That's what he did to the story.

 

[loquere]

I don't get a lot of pleasure from reading stories on Lit, and I realised some time ago it's because I'm too busy rewriting all of it in my head to match my own writing preferences. (This only seems to happen for erotica). Maybe it's because I grew up on Alistair Mclean stories, but for the most part I feel bogged down in most of I see on the site. From women writers it's generally the adjjectivitis. For guys I'm usually annoyed at the overly detailed mechanics of sex and the focus on physical descriptions (cf discussions of breasts size).

Mostly I look at stories when I get favorited and I go see what else the fan is fond of. (Usually I'm horrified.) This morning I ran across a highly rated (4.8+) story and got about three paragraphs in before I had to stop.

Yes, I know that's my problem and no true reflection on anyone's writing. But I'm curious about something.

As an exercise, I'm going to post a few of the story's paragraphs, unattributed (and apologies if it's yours). And then my rewrite. I'm inviting people to add their own rewrites; I want to see how other people deal with it. Try to maintain the personalities the two paragraphs hint at.

-- Original
Henry tightened his hold on her legs, preventing her feeble and half-hearted attempts of escaping the pleasure of his tongue. He looked up at her, smiling mischievously at her flushed face and heaving chest, "just relax Elena, you will like this..." he cooed while maintaining a firm hold on her legs.

Elena stiffened as she felt Henry's fingers part her delicate folds with one hand while his other hand continued to stop Elena's attempts in covering herself from him. She gasped loudly as she felt his warm, firm tongue push between her folds, sliding into her pussy, inch by wet inch. She let out a deep breath as she felt his tongue slide back out, but gasped anew as Henry's tongue pushed back in, deeper than before.

-- Mine (I tried to keep her relative innocence and his playfulness.)

"Henry!" Elena gasped, as Henry's tongue began to tease the folds of her pussy. "What - stop it"! She shifted, trying to get away, but his grip on her legs tightened, forcing her into a more exposed position.

"You'll like it," he chuckled mischievously. "Listen to your breathing. It sounds to me like you already like it a lot."

She tried to push him off. "It just feels stran- stop! No mor-"

His tongue pushed deep into her suddenly, and her protests collapsed into a ragged moan. It pressed deeper, then slid out and flicked lightly, spreading her open.

"Stop," she said, more weakly. "This is so wrong-"

His only reply was a teasing series of fluttering teases around her clit, and then forceful flicking. Her head fell back and her body tensed, slowly. "Henry... don't..."

And then a fingertip, slowly parting her folds, then suddenly forcing into her. She sobbed, arching, rigid, already hungry for more. His muted chuckle brought a hot blush to her cheeks.

http://41.media.tumblr.com/f9b0125a3ad5a12bef9f3fa254dd4fcb/tumblr_nc3srr6ysL1tdyxfno1_500.jpg

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Life isn't for the fragile and delicate. Someone took a count and the average person gets 300,000 fuck-yous over their life time. They didn't count flattery bull shit, but I bet its twice the number of insults.

 

[TxRad]

Life isn't for the fragile and delicate. Someone took a count and the average person gets 300,000 fuck-yous over their life time. They didn't count flattery bull shit, but I bet its twice the number of insults.

Why don't you post something to support those numbers. Otherwise they are just numbers you are pulling out of your ass.

 

[sr71plt]

Why don't you post something to support those numbers. Otherwise they are just numbers you are pulling out of your ass.

I was coming back to post the same thing. JBJ seems to make up whatever premise seems to illustrate one of his mostly irrelevant yarns.

 

[sybarite_1]

I tried. I really did give it a go! But...

after many tries...and trying again...there are too many spelling errors...punctuation seems to have been an afterthought if thought of at all...so sorry....I lost the momentum of the story because in my mind I was correcting all the errors in sentence structure, tense, spelling...and the wrong punctuation really affects the meaning and flow...

I know you tried too...to entertain and share your imaginative thoughts...but I just couldn't hang in there long enough to share the ride with you...

 

[ElectricBlue]

My response to the OP is the same as it was to someone who commented "well, your story just took a turn for the worst..." simply because I took it somewhere they didn't like.

WTF?? It's my story, I'll write it how I want to write it, and I'll write what I want to write. If you don't like it, stop reading; or write your own.

Pretty arrogant thing to do, to go rewrite somebody else's work to suit your own likes and dislikes. Please don't read anything of mine, if that's how you show respect to other writers.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

I am a complete - and I do mean complete - libertarian, as far as the written word goes. I suppose personally too, I would have to live and die by that sword myself. Jarring though it might or would be, I (think so...) can live with someone trying to re-work a piece of text.

Criticism too, therefore, I must accept as being possible at any moment.

It is my view that writing is a continuous debate for moral ground of some vague kind, between enlightened humans - and all the rest, be they merely misguided, or pathological or even deliberately malicious in some cases.

Was de Sade a writer whose characters always liked the acts visited on them? I'm not exactly sure because I'm not so familiar with his work but I suspect not on every occasion.

People hold strong views of various kinds throughout society all the time, of course.

Although why they do, I'm never perfectly sure... None of their opinions ever work. Those people whose views and perspectives you can rely on to actually perform in practice and in reality, as truly functional ideas over the longer term, are very few.

What is all this urge to assert some truth? I have truth too, but even that which I have, I often regard, although not with suspicion, but as if peering into some very dark water about to be crossed. And I never tell that truth to people, generally.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

You're free to express your opinions but I feel this is a little pretentious.

I am sure people could find plenty they would want to rewrite in yours. Things like this cut both ways.

I'm sure of that too. So what? Anyone who doesn't give a story a 5 is implicitly saying "Yeah, but it would have been better if you'd changed this and this..."

There isn't, as far as I know, some Universal Correct Way To Write. (There are a few Universal Bad Ways To Write, mostly having to do with grammar rape and spelling.) So when someone gives one of my (clearly absolutely brilliant, in my view) stories a 4, I don't exactly dissolve into tears. The story didn't quite suit them and that's as it should be, since they aren't me and I write to please myself as best I can. In short I don't think criticising or being criticised over writing is a sin, and the fact that I mentally rewrite prose into a "better" (for me) form doesn't even strike me as arrogant. I'm not asking the author to change their words, after all. Even in the example I gave, I'm not suggesting that the author did it wrong. I'm just fascinated by how I'd have done it differently. And I'd absolutely love it if someone grabbed some of my prose and did the same.

What I really wanted to see happen in this thread is that everyone participating did the same exercise, and recast those two paragraphs in their own preferred style. I'd have learned something from that, gotten some insight into better ways to see things. Especially, I'd have learned if people here shied away from the same things I shy away from. Maybe I'm the only one that cringes from an unnecessary adjective.

But this is Literotica's Author forum and that didn't happen. It didn't happen even though I went to pains in the original post to point out that the mental rewriting was a quirk of mine and not some sort of judgement on quality. It didn't happen despite the fact that I chose a highly rated story and mentioned the high rating.

Honestly, the only person here who seems to offer opinions on technique and style is NOIRTRASH, and half of you have him on Ignore. At first I thought it was because he's so abrasive (and he is) but I've come to the conclusion that most folk here are just delicate and can't handle anything that might smack of any sort of criticism. He'd likely hate my stuff - probably too touchy feely for him - but that's unlikely to upset me, especially if I get some insight in the process. Because that's what a forum like this exists for, insight. In theory.

Not today though.

 

[Areala-chan]

What I really wanted to see happen in this thread is that everyone participating did the same exercise, and recast those two paragraphs in their own preferred style. I'd have learned something from that, gotten some insight into better ways to see things. Especially, I'd have learned if people here shied away from the same things I shy away from. Maybe I'm the only one that cringes from an unnecessary adjective.

But this is Literotica's Author forum and that didn't happen. It didn't happen even though I went to pains in the original post to point out that the mental rewriting was a quirk of mine and not some sort of judgement on quality. It didn't happen despite the fact that I chose a highly rated story and mentioned the high rating.

I understand what your goal was, and I believe you when you say your intention wasn't to rake another writer's work over the coals. That said, I believe people here took issue not with the idea of the exercise, per se, but that another amateur work (which seemingly came from a highly-charged category, as Pilot and others pointed out, which did not help matters) was chosen for this purpose without the original author's consent.

I love the rewriting/reinterpretation exercise. I do it myself all the time, mentally or otherwise. I also enjoy translating one medium into another, like converting a few pages from a comic book into a long format prose piece just to see how different the two are.

My guess is things would have gone differently if you had put one of your own scenes/paragraphs 'on the chopping block' as it were and requested other interpretations of your own scene. Again, I believe you had no malicious intent against this particular author or story, but the internet will find a way to ruin the best of intentions 100% of the time.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I'm sure of that too. So what? Anyone who doesn't give a story a 5 is implicitly saying "Yeah, but it would have been better if you'd changed this and this..."

There isn't, as far as I know, some Universal Correct Way To Write. (There are a few Universal Bad Ways To Write, mostly having to do with grammar rape and spelling.) So when someone gives one of my (clearly absolutely brilliant, in my view) stories a 4, I don't exactly dissolve into tears. The story didn't quite suit them and that's as it should be, since they aren't me and I write to please myself as best I can. In short I don't think criticising or being criticised over writing is a sin, and the fact that I mentally rewrite prose into a "better" (for me) form doesn't even strike me as arrogant. I'm not asking the author to change their words, after all. Even in the example I gave, I'm not suggesting that the author did it wrong. I'm just fascinated by how I'd have done it differently. And I'd absolutely love it if someone grabbed some of my prose and did the same.

What I really wanted to see happen in this thread is that everyone participating did the same exercise, and recast those two paragraphs in their own preferred style. I'd have learned something from that, gotten some insight into better ways to see things. Especially, I'd have learned if people here shied away from the same things I shy away from. Maybe I'm the only one that cringes from an unnecessary adjective.

But this is Literotica's Author forum and that didn't happen. It didn't happen even though I went to pains in the original post to point out that the mental rewriting was a quirk of mine and not some sort of judgement on quality. It didn't happen despite the fact that I chose a highly rated story and mentioned the high rating.

Honestly, the only person here who seems to offer opinions on technique and style is NOIRTRASH, and half of you have him on Ignore. At first I thought it was because he's so abrasive (and he is) but I've come to the conclusion that most folk here are just delicate and can't handle anything that might smack of any sort of criticism. He'd likely hate my stuff - probably too touchy feely for him - but that's unlikely to upset me, especially if I get some insight in the process. Because that's what a forum like this exists for, insight. In theory.

Not today though.

Most have me on IGNORE and that's okay with me because I don't want too many idgits in my life. I post what I think is accurate, and if most don't like it I don't care. I'm no cherry boy when it comes to critics and insults. I simply offer an honest opinion.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

I (think so...) can live with someone trying to re-work a piece of text.

I'll assume you mean a piece of your own text. Probably no surprise, but you are most likely unique among your peers. Many popular, mainstream writers will argue with editors over the placement of a comma. Artists are like that. We tend to say what we mean, mean what we say, and reject criticism as impeding upon our artistic vision.

Could it be that the craft of writing is unique among most other forms of expression? From the time we first learn to read & write, we learn rules for spelling, grammar, and word use. I don't believe there are style books like "Elements of Style" for painters, sculpters, or songwriters. I would suggest the wealth of "how to write" material dwarfs the "how to" material for nearly all other forms of expression.

Criticism too, therefore, I must accept as being possible at any moment.

Yes, criticism can be constructive. (Even poorly worded criticism.) However, so can a thick skin against criticism. Picasso knew the "rules" of art and knew which ones he was breaking as he explored his medium's ability to express.

It is my view that writing is a continuous debate for moral ground of some vague kind, between enlightened humans - and all the rest, be they merely misguided, or pathological or even deliberately malicious in some cases.

Critics have opinions. So do other practiciners of most arts. Writing is a series of choices made one letter at a time. It's seldom a one-size-fits-most proposition.

Was de Sade a writer whose characters always liked the acts visited on them? I'm not exactly sure because I'm not so familiar with his work but I suspect not on every occasion.

I've not studied de Sade, but I have read several. I believe his works were villified as much for his rantings against the Church as they were for the illicit sex. His characters are often abused by the very people who should be protecting them.

People hold strong views of various kinds throughout society all the time, of course.

Although why they do, I'm never perfectly sure... None of their opinions ever work. Those people whose views and perspectives you can rely on to actually perform in practice and in reality, as truly functional ideas over the longer term, are very few.

Yes and no. I'll can't ignore the irony of how you've expressed your own strong view. Opinions are like religion and: "Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around." Unless you're on a forum. Especially a writer's forum. Opinions should be welcomed here.

What is all this urge to assert some truth? I have truth too, but even that which I have, I often regard, although not with suspicion, but as if peering into some very dark water about to be crossed. And I never tell that truth to people, generally.

Have I asserted truth? More opinion than truth.

I would assert the OP (original poster) had a noble idea in mind, but fumbled with how they choose to open up the discussion. When criticizing/discussing style, it's generally safer to choose an outsider's work for consideration than it is to choose among the works of your peers, especially without permission. Most commentators, including me, found it difficult to consider the broader point. We were too mortified that he randomly choose a passage from a peer.

Better would have been to choose to passage from a widely accepted master. Include a passage from J.K. Rowling or Anne Rice or even de Sade - and suggest a rewrite in styles - and the conversation could have been very different.

 

[karaline]

What I really wanted to see happen in this thread is that everyone participating did the same exercise, and recast those two paragraphs in their own preferred style. I'd have learned something from that, gotten some insight into better ways to see things. Especially, I'd have learned if people here shied away from the same things I shy away from. Maybe I'm the only one that cringes from an unnecessary adjective.

But this is Literotica's Author forum and that didn't happen. It didn't happen even though I went to pains in the original post to point out that the mental rewriting was a quirk of mine and not some sort of judgement on quality. It didn't happen despite the fact that I chose a highly rated story and mentioned the high rating.

Personally I don't think that's ethical.

If you want to participate in that kind of writing exercise, (and I think its a very useful and valid thing to do) then use a piece of your own writing, use a piece of writing from a well known book or get express consent from the person who's writing you're putting forward.

Hell would frieze over before I would give permission for anyone to share my work here and invite the wrath of the authors hangout to critique it. I'm sorry to be part of a bit of a 'pile on' but I'm a very private person and I'm already self conscious enough my work, I know very well that my writing is flawed, I don't need to be told you lot (no offence everyone). as I said earlier, I would hate this to happen to me. (and it so easily could have been me)

Life isn't for the fragile and delicate. Someone took a count and the average person gets 300,000 fuck-yous over their life time. They didn't count flattery bull shit, but I bet its twice the number of insults.

JBJ although I take your point, its not going to stop me from pointing stuff out when i consider it to be wrong, or trying to be considerate to other peoples feelings.

Also that is the Best Signature Ever.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Actually there exist excellent and awful ways to write. There is such an animal as STATE OF THE ART practices for writers and skaters and brain surgeons. I assure you Shakespeare kicked every ass back in the 17th Century, Doctor Johnson kicked ass in the 18th Century, and Mark Twain kicked ass in the 19th. The jury is out on the 20th.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Personally I don't think that's ethical.

If you want to participate in that kind of writing exercise, (and I think its a very useful and valid thing to do) then use a piece of your own writing, use a piece of writing from a well known book or get express consent from the person who's writing you're putting forward.

Hell would frieze over before I would give permission for anyone to share my work here and invite the wrath of the authors hangout to critique it. I'm sorry to be part of a bit of a 'pile on' but I'm a very private person and I'm already self conscious enough my work, I know very well that my writing is flawed, I don't need to be told you lot (no offence everyone). as I said earlier, I would hate this to happen to me. (and it so easily could have been me)



JBJ although I take your point, its not going to stop me from pointing stuff out when i consider it to be wrong, or trying to be considerate to other peoples feelings.

Also that is the Best Signature Ever.

My points were: No one escapes hostile reviews or flattery. Flatter to your heart's contentment.

 

[lovecraft68]

My rewrite would involve the woman slamming her palm into the tip of the jaw of her rapist, cracking his teeth and stunning him so she can grab her concealed knife and slice his throat.

Yup, that's how I would do it. Oh, and I have done similar in last year and this years Halloween entries.

And in a sense, that is me not rewriting outright, but writing my version of the type of stories I loath. I hate rape stories so I like writing stories where the asshat gets theirs.

 

[sr71plt]

My rewrite would involve the woman slamming her palm into the tip of the jaw of her rapist, cracking his teeth and stunning him so she can grab her concealed knife and slice his throat.

Yup, that's how I would do it. Oh, and I have done similar in last year and this years Halloween entries.

And in a sense, that is me not rewriting outright, but writing my version of the type of stories I loath. I hate rape stories so I like writing stories where the asshat gets theirs.

Then yours would be as inappropriate as Handinthedark's was as far as doing anything with the original. There are enough hints in the original that this is reluctance--not rejection--to do what she wants to completely negate the legitimacy of the acceptance of being faithful to the original. You are just as far out on one edge of this top that Hands seems to be on another edge. So, just as Hands should just keep his/her hands off this one, so should . . .

 

[HandsInTheDark]

Personally I don't think that's ethical.

If you want to participate in that kind of writing exercise, (and I think its a very useful and valid thing to do) then use a piece of your own writing, use a piece of writing from a well known book or get express consent from the person who's writing you're putting forward.

Wow, what? SHow me the ethical issue in using any publically available text as a learning exercise and discussion topic.

You might have had a case if I'd named the story and author and proceeded to humiliate them over a lack of basic writing skill; though even that would be fair game in marketplace of ideas we call writing (though it's poor form in my opinion.) But I deliberately chose a highly rated story I didn't name (though someone else proved it was possible to track it down in Google), and I deliberately avoided claiming it was poor writing.

I'm still trying to see a single ethical or moral issue with "Here's some text I found in a public place and how I'd have done it differently; how would you have done it differently?" Seriously, I'm stunned. Are you arguing people have some sort of right to have their publically shared work held above anything that might possibly smack of criticism or even discussion? How would such a right even work?

The culture of entitlement is out of control.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

Well. I think there are a lot of responders here who right now would be biting their nails trying to get a point across to you, HandsInTheDark. They're all figuring out what to say to you.

And, you did mention 'learning exercise and discussion material.' Fair enough.

And that's about where the ethics stops.

Beyond that point lies the territory of being, what do some English say? Keening. Gulling. Perhaps?

Writers responding here are tending to say to you that they wouldn't quickly jump to showing their skills or their styles so 'openly;' as in - disclose the elements of their style that transparently. Neither might they simply provide a template example that typified how they might approach the particular case in question. And that is, if we leave aside the important point about non-con v. reluctance.

Is this merely a 'public venue' where amateurs hang out...?

That's not what I believe.

Sure, there are amateurs also here. Certainly. But I presume you don't necessarily want a whole series of even poorer writers to add their work to the examples? What would be the point of that?

And yes, personally - and that's just speaking for me alone - I'm not overly worked up about your having picked someone's work and then re-worked it; however I would suggest, far and away the majority of writers would think it is not er 'gentlemanly.' For me I 'think,' as BuckyDuckman said, I may have thicker skin, but then, you didn't pick on anything I wrote. Maybe I would feel differently if you had have...

Ethical/unethical? It could be unethical - depends on what your intentions were but people, as you can see, are very suspicious. Not necessarily of you, but they have all witnessed situations in the past, I'm sure, where the way you approached it turned out to indeed have been accurately suggestive of someone being unethical.

I would be keen to understand from you what 'elements of style' that you saw in the first example, were let's say, deficient - and why you think the second version is better? Does it turn on the non-con aspect, or are you really interested in the actual phrasing and the style?

My own personal critique of both examples would be that they 'seem' to me, at least, wildly inauthentic as far as a genuine experience that someone had, would go.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Wow, what? SHow me the ethical issue in using any publically available text as a learning exercise and discussion topic.

You might have had a case if I'd named the story and author and proceeded to humiliate them over a lack of basic writing skill; though even that would be fair game in marketplace of ideas we call writing (though it's poor form in my opinion.) But I deliberately chose a highly rated story I didn't name (though someone else proved it was possible to track it down in Google), and I deliberately avoided claiming it was poor writing.

I'm still trying to see a single ethical or moral issue with "Here's some text I found in a public place and how I'd have done it differently; how would you have done it differently?" Seriously, I'm stunned. Are you arguing people have some sort of right to have their publically shared work held above anything that might possibly smack of criticism or even discussion? How would such a right even work?

The culture of entitlement is out of control.

Since I live in the "Show me" state, I'll bite, too, though I think Desiremakesmeweak covered it well enough. Legally, you didn't do a damn thing wrong:

. . . a fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and “transformative” purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner.

Ethically? Well, if you're within legal boundaries, you're still being ethical, right?

Nah. I'll repeat that I believe you had the best of intentions, but unintentionally committed a social faux pas. Choosing a peer's writing, without permission or attribution, regardless of the criteria used to make that choice was, well, uncool.

Is it an offense that rises to the level of "Hey, let's all throw rocks at HandsInTheDark?" Nope. At least not for me. You tried to initiate a greater conversation that got sidetracked by your methods. Dude, that happens to me, too. I'll try to give a real life example about something, and everyone wants to comment on my real life example without discussing the point I was trying to make. It happens.

Now here's a genuine question for me: In your original post, you admitting to having a preferred style for erotica. You said:

I don't get a lot of pleasure from reading stories on Lit, and I realised some time ago it's because I'm too busy rewriting all of it in my head to match my own writing preferences. (This only seems to happen for erotica). Maybe it's because I grew up on Alistair Mclean stories, but for the most part I feel bogged down in most of I see on the site. From women writers it's generally the adjjectivitis. For guys I'm usually annoyed at the overly detailed mechanics of sex and the focus on physical descriptions (cf discussions of breasts size).

. . .

Yes, I know that's my problem and no true reflection on anyone's writing. But I'm curious about something. . . .

Now that's interesting and warrants investigation. Any idea why that only applies to erotica and not other forms of fiction? Are you suggesting there could be a BEST way to write erotica or merely pointing out that there seems to be a best way for you? What could change your mind?

 

[sr71plt]

I'll just say that I think that vigilante critique is rude and unethical on a site that isn't a critique site, especially when the rewrite changes both the voice and meaning of the original and when I think the original was superior writing.