Why Has the Quality of Submissions to Literotica Plummeted so Dramatically?

[NotWise]

I studied nursing, not philosophical burbly-boo or creative writing or literature or whatever. Aesthetics is what happens to my nails, dude. Or my AR15 when I stick Hello Kitty decals on it.

Made me laugh!

 

[ChloeTzang]

Made me laugh!

As long as the coffees not coming out your nose we’re all good.

 

[oggbashan]

Gilded AR15s or other guns are so Middle-Eastern despot, not aesthetic at all.

https://rs291.pbsrc.com/albums/ll293/TTKRickJames/AK74ugold.jpg?w=280&h=210&fit=crop

Unlike this:

https://geekologie.com/2015/10/27/hello-kitty-call-of-duty-rifle.jpg

 

[SimonDoom]

I tried reading all three of her Grey novels by E L James. Could never get past the first paragraph in each. Not that it was badly written, but it was... written badly. And heaven forbid, I know I'm not a perfect writer, I even mix up my tenses sometimes. But then again, maybe I do that on purpose. Or not.

I also tried to watch the movies... no thank you. It's not that I don't like BSDM and she was very pretty, I just don't get off thrashing... hitting women. I found nothing erotic about either movie.

I read all three of the Fifty Shades books. I guess I was inspired by them to try masochism in my own way. Actually, putting the awful prose aside for the moment, I thought the story began reasonably entertaining. It goes downhill fast, sure, and each successive book is worse than the previous one.

I've read Anais Nin, too. Obviously, her stuff is much better than James's. The style is far better. But some of her stories I find more amusing or interesting than truly erotic. There's sometimes a distance between her and her subject that muffles the sense of eroticism.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Gilded AR15s or other guns are so Middle-Eastern despot, not aesthetic at all.

...

Unlike this:

https://geekologie.com/2015/10/27/hello-kitty-call-of-duty-rifle.jpg

OMG! I want one! No Two!

I had a real one, it was black all over, before I got out of the service. The M-4 had just been issued to our unit. Of course we didn't have all the doodads that these do.

 

[redzinger]

I tried reading all three of her Grey novels by E L James. Could never get past the first paragraph in each. Not that it was badly written, but it was... written badly. And heaven forbid, I know I'm not a perfect writer, I even mix up my tenses sometimes. But then again, maybe I do that on purpose. Or not.

I also tried to watch the movies... no thank you. It's not that I don't like BSDM and she was very pretty, I just don't get off thrashing... hitting women. I found nothing erotic about either movie.

I don't know which I hated more - the poor writing or the lack of safe BDSM protocols.

I read all three of the Fifty Shades books. I guess I was inspired by them to try masochism in my own way. Actually, putting the awful prose aside for the moment, I thought the story began reasonably entertaining. It goes downhill fast, sure, and each successive book is worse than the previous one.

I think what pulled a lot of people in were the tropes, and a lot of people didn't know that they had been done better and safer previously and since.

I've read Anais Nin, too. Obviously, her stuff is much better than James's. The style is far better. But some of her stories I find more amusing or interesting than truly erotic. There's sometimes a distance between her and her subject that muffles the sense of eroticism.

That's a brilliant way to describe it - I know exactly what you mean - I've found this before with literary writing: it's not really that sexy. It may be written well, but there's a distance and something which fails to turn me on.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Anyway, how pitiable have the U.S. of A. turned when telling the truth there these days has become equated with “rudeness” and “arrogance.” O deum meum!

*waves*

Hi, I was born in the USA but I've spent most of my life in Australia, and from an Australian perspective I can confidently say that you're a tosser. That might sound rude but it's just the truth.

(Also, saying "ohmigawd" in Latin doesn't make it clever.)

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I don't think it was meant to be a manual

OK, now there's nose-coffee.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I don't think it was meant to be a manual

It's not, but there's a big difference between "unrealistic for narrative reasons" and "unrealistic because the author was clueless/lazy", and 50SoG feels very much like the latter. Evidently there are plenty of readers who enjoyed 50 Shades despite that kind of issue, and that's great for them and for EL James, but others are within their rights to find that stuff jarring.

If I wrote a scene where my action hero sprays his hollow-point bullets with Teflon to make them armour-piercing and then slams a clip into his silenced Ruger Redhawk... I might be able to find an audience, but I wouldn't expect folk like Chloe or Zeb to be among it. And if I wrote a modern-day story which involved the "President of Africa", I wouldn't fault you if you had difficulty suspending disbelief. For me, 50SoG is like that.

But rather than beating the dead horse any further, I'll just plug Stjepan Šejić's "Sunstone" as an example of an excellent story about BDSM written/drawn by somebody who actually does know what they're talking about.

 

[ElectricBlue]

*waves*

Hi, I was born in the USA but I've spent most of my life in Australia, and from an Australian perspective I can confidently say that you're a tosser. That might sound rude but it's just the truth.

(Also, saying "ohmigawd" in Latin doesn't make it clever.)

I suppose you could try to explain "wanker" to the OP, but something tells me he wouldn't get close to understanding the Australian nuance.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I suppose you could try to explain "wanker" to the OP, but something tells me he wouldn't get close to understanding the Australian nuance.

I had difficulty choosing between "wanker" and "tosser", but the Latin tipped the scales.

 

[ChloeTzang]

*waves* (Also, saying "ohmigawd" in Latin doesn't make it clever.)

Madre de dios, yore shittin’ me, dawg? It don’t? Sweet holy Jayzus, ah’ve bin hornswoggled, cuzzy. Chuck me a tinnie while I kick back and think about this one.

 

[KeithD]

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but...
I don't think a story featuring BDSM-parts has to follow BDSM protocol in order to be a good story.

This. There's no requirement to get BDSM "right" by some club's "rules" in a story. If you tie someone up in a story, it's bondage. If you take control of them, it's domination. If you beat them, its sadism. If you have them beat you, it's masochism. These are acts. They don't have to be done by someone's rules--or even according to safety standards, or "right." If you feed the pill to the man rather than the woman, the woman can more easily get pregnant. That doesn't stop the pill from being the pill.

 

[ttvttp]

This. There's no requirement to get BDSM "right" by some club's "rules" in a story. If you tie someone up in a story, it's bondage. If you take control of them, it's domination. If you beat them, its sadism. If you have them beat you, it's masochism. These are acts. They don't have to be done by someone's rules--or even according to safety standards, or "right." If you feed the pill to the man rather than the woman, the woman can more easily get pregnant. That doesn't stop the pill from being the pill.

In fiction sure, I would hope in real life the participants would research how to safely beat their partner. I would certainly. Though I am far less into causing pain than humiliating my partner/s.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but...
I don't think a story featuring BDSM-parts has to follow BDSM protocol in order to be a good story.

It doesn't. The series I mentioned above, Sunstone, features more than one scene where people break protocol and do things that would be a big no-no in BDSM circles. In that series it works because the author understands what the protocol is, and the implications of breaking it.

It reads very differently when it's coming from a place of knowledge, when it's an informed narrative decision and doesn't feel like "author didn't know any better".

If I remember correctly, Christian had indicated several times that he's a 'sadist' not a BDSM-ist. Perhaps the books have been hyped as BDSM-friendly, but in my opinion, that's not what the story is about.

The series explicitly describes Ana & Christian's thing (and Christian's thing more generally) as BDSM:

Ana on Grey: "This is the man who deflowered me and wants us to start a BDSM relationship."

Ana on Grey's ex: "She took advantage of a vulnerable fifteen-year-old boy. If you had been a fifteen-year-old girl and Mrs. Robinson was a Mr. Robinson, tempting you into a BDSM lifestyle, that would have been okay?"

Ana on Grey again: "I am holding myself back. The BDSM is a distraction from the real issue."

Dr. Flynn to Ana: "...if it's practiced in a safe, sane relationship between consenting adults, then it's a nonissue. My understanding is that Christian has conducted all of his BDSM relationships in this manner."

Ana: "Yet here I am, alone and cold in a BDSM fantasy playroom."

Note the Dr. Flynn quote. "Safe, sane, and consensual" is a motto from BDSM subculture. She's not just writing about a guy who's into whips and chains; ELJ is very specifically invoking that subculture and claiming that Grey's behaviour fits within its norms, which it absolutely does not.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't know which I hated more - the poor writing or the lack of safe BDSM protocols.

This raises an interesting question -- for another thread, I suppose, but what the heck, this one's going to the dogs anyway -- whether BDSM fiction SHOULD recognize such protocols. For avid BDSM aficionados I imagine it should, but for the much larger lay audience my guess it hinders rather than helps the story. Ordinary readers like the danger and have no concept of the issues underlying the protocols. I don't know for sure but my guess was James was a novice in the area. Her audience wasn't BDSM fans but ordinary women who wanted to read something kinky they could tell their friends about. I'm sure they wouldn't know anything about the protocols.

 

[Bramblethorn]

This. There's no requirement to get BDSM "right" by some club's "rules" in a story. If you tie someone up in a story, it's bondage.

Except that with the call-out to "safe, sane, and consensual", the story in question is attempting to claim that the BDSM it describes does follow "club" rules, which it doesn't.

 

[ttvttp]

If I am reading a true story then yes the safety protocols should be followed. But what are they truly. In fiction I don't care, it's fiction. Truth though is also very murky. On fetlife there are groups for those that literally enjoy being the punching bag for an abuser. That certainly is not following any protocols. For me it all depends on what audience you are writing for.

 

[ChloeTzang]

If I am reading a true story then yes the safety protocols should be followed. But what are they truly. In fiction I don't care, it's fiction. Truth though is also very murky. On fetlife there are groups for those that literally enjoy being the punching bag for an abuser. That certainly is not following any protocols. For me it all depends on what audience you are writing for.

125,000,000+ sales say it doesn’t matter to the readers

 

[ttvttp]

125,000,000+ sales say it doesn’t matter to the readers

Some of those sales had to have been because of the fact that it was originally twilight fanfic. I just hope any work talking about any aspect of bdsm leads a person to the community. Sexual freedom for me will always be appreciated.

 

[MelissaBaby]

In fiction sure, I would hope in real life the participants would research how to safely beat their partner. I would certainly. Though I am far less into causing pain than humiliating my partner/s.

I don't think I'd be any fun at that sort of thing. I think it would be like:

"You're a slut!"

"Yeah, fair point."

"A whore!"

"Dude, a girl's gotta pay her bills..."

 

[KeithD]

Except that with the call-out to "safe, sane, and consensual", the story in question is attempting to claim that the BDSM it describes does follow "club" rules, which it doesn't.

Again, there is no requirement in fiction to get it "right" by someone's claim to own "the rules." The author has no requirement to please the "rule givers" and the "rule givers" have no responsibility to like the story that doesn't follow the "rules" they don't have the authority to demand.

Club members can write for themselves and share their stories inside the club if they like.

The thing about James is that she opened up a big, profitable market that a lot of authors who are badmouthing her are profiting from.

 

[ttvttp]

I don't think I'd be any fun at that sort of thing. I think it would be like:

"You're a slut!"

"Yeah, fair point."

"A whore!"

"Dude, a girl's gotta pay her bills..."

My humiliation is more centered around lack of clothing and how public I can make certain things without arrest. Also a lot of derogatory fake tattoos.

 

[MelissaBaby]

My humiliation is more centered around lack of clothing and how public I can make certain things without arrest. Also a lot of derogatory fake tattoos.

Derogatory fake tattoos? Like drawing arrows on their ass saying "Dick goes here" or something?

I'm thinking a year and a half in women's correctional left me with a pretty high humiliation threshold.

 

[ttvttp]

Derogatory fake tattoos? Like drawing arrows on their ass saying "Dick goes here" or something?

I'm thinking a year and a half in women's correctional left me with a pretty high humiliation threshold.

Not sure, it would depend on the sub. The dom and sub/slave have to work together to find what works best. If humiliation doesn't work then find other ways. For most that is where soft limits and hard come in. You get as close to the edge as possible. The only time where limits are essentially useless is in an Unconditional Consent Relationship (CNC). Another thing I am into is the use of bodily fluids. Not blood or vomit but the other kinds. As long as it doesn't harm their bodies. I don't condone permanent damage. I don't consider piercings or tattoos damaging.