Why doesn't this work?

[AG31]

I recently read a snippet in a detective story that just didn't seem to work. Since it had to do with sex as well as writing skill, I thought I'd bring it up here.

Set up: The MC, Packard, is a deputy sheriff in rural northern Minnesota. He's out to dinner with his ditzy mother. Kyle, the attendant at the table is the owner of the restaurant, and the two had interacted briefly some time ago at an event at the restaurant. Kyle has just finished letting the mother taste the wine.

"Kyle took her glass and asked Packard if he wanted to sample anything. Packard had a list of things he wanted to sample on Kyle--a handful of his dark hair, the scratch of his five-o'clock shadow, the texture of the scar on his upper lip. He'd thought maybe they'd had a moment at his party but there hadn't been time to investigate since then on account of <a litany of what Packard had been up to>."

This is our introduction to Packard's sexual orientation, but that doesn't figure prominently in the book. Just another characteristic. It caught me up short and kept intruding on my reading. I wondered if it was relative lack of familiarity with gay culture, so I tried making Kyle female.

"Kylie took her glass and asked Packard if he wanted to sample anything. Packard had a list of things he wanted to sample on Kylie--a handful of her dark hair, the softness of her velvety cheek, the texture of the slight scar on her upper lip. He'd thought maybe they'd had a moment at his party but there hadn't been time to investigate since then on account of <a litany of what Packard had been up to>."

I think I would have reacted the same way. Is the phrasing "things he wanted to sample on Kyle" just too awkward? Is it too over the top somehow? Too arbitrary, as there's no development on this front, at least for the first 3/4 of the book.

What do you think?

 

[ElectricBlue]

"wanted to sample" is a bit clunky to my eye. Makes Kyle sound like a piece of food - which might be the effect the author is after, but without the rest of the context, difficult to really say.

 

[NotWise]

It didn't bother me at all.

 

[StillStunned]

"Sample on" is a weird combination. But the whole paragraph is clunky. Kyle asks a question, and Packard just goes into sexy dreamy mode, and then a reflection of what went wrong. Are Kyle and the mother just sitting there watching him? It might work in a sitcom, but if the novel is supposed to be serious, it feels out of place.

 

[ChuckWolf]

In the book it's referring to wine and in that instance it works, but tasting would be more common than sampling in that context.

Tasting would actually have been a better choice, except for all the hair and scar on the upper lip stuff.

 

[PennyThompson]

Specifically the phrase "Sample on him/her," is just a little awkward to me, but I don't know that "sample from," is better...

But other than that, I kind of like it. The Packard character is horny for Kyle and wants to nibble on him like a charcuterie board

 

[StillStunned]

Specifically the phrase "Sample on him/her," is just a little awkward to me, but I don't know that "sample from," is better...

I might have written as "If Kyle was offering, Packard thought, there was a whole list of things he'd like to sample."

 

[BeechLeaf]

(I wish the full stops and commas were a bit more distinct here. I read that opening as:

The MC, Packard, is a deputy sheriff in rural northern Minnesota. He's out to dinner with his ditzy mother, Kyle. The attendant at the table is the owner of the restaurant . . .

And that confused me for quite a while: he's fantasizing about his mother's five-o'clock shadow?)

So, once I'd worked that out, yes 'sample on' is clunky, but there's also something odd about 'had a list of things' in this gritty, realist setting. Does he, would he, really have a list? Something he's thought of before? This would be fine in the whimsical style of bi_cathy or norafares, but not so likely in a hardboiled detective story.

 

[PennyThompson]

Does he, would he, really have a list? Something he's thought of before?

... doesn't everyone? Have an easily accessible mental list of features and body parts of people they know that they wouldn't mind nuzzling?

Right, no, of course not. That would be weird. Nobody does that, definitely not me...

 

[IWroteThis]

Here's my first take on it.

"Kyle took her glass and asked Packard if he wanted to sample anything. Packard had a list of things he wanted to sample on Kyle--a handful of his dark hair, the scratch of his five-o'clock shadow, the texture of the scar on his upper lip.

Kyle took her glass and asked Packard if he wanted to sample anything. Packard did want to sample something — Kyle. The silken feel of his dark hair, the scratch of his five-o'clock shadow, the texture of the scar on his upper lip, …

 

[CalBishForNow]

Packard had a list of things he wanted to sample on Kyle--a handful of his dark hair, the scratch of his five-o'clock shadow, the texture of the scar on his upper lip.

IMO the weirdest thing is what he wants to sample. Maybe this is just because I'm a cishet guy, but I'm having a hard time imagining how sampling that stuff would even work, and it wouldn't seem enjoyable if he did. I guess you could sample the feel of the hair but sampling the hair itself sounds like eating it, and I assume sampling the feel of five-o'clock shadow would be unpleasant, and straight or not I don't even think I'm sensitive enough to even feel a scar on lips unless it's very big. It makes me imagine that Kyle looks like Jonah Hex.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

"sample of Kyle's -" would be more idiomatic to me - the 'on' is clunky.

The rest of it is adequate telling.

 

[Britva415]

I think I would have reacted the same way. Is the phrasing "things he wanted to sample on Kyle" just too awkward? Is it too over the top somehow? Too arbitrary, as there's no development on this front, at least for the first 3/4 of the book.

Personally, I find the phrasing about wanting to sample Kyle's stuff to be kind of suitable and objection-free regarding gay male attraction, but would find it crude, charmless and borderline creepy regarding a man's hetero attraction to a woman.

Creepy as in, if it weren't very very clear that the author were deliberately imparting that trait specifically upon the characater, for creepy-character characterization reasons, then I might project the unselfconscious creepiness onto the author.

 

[Britva415]

Are Kyle and the mother just sitting there watching him?

This is kind of amazing to me. Readers know that thoughts happen at the speed of thought, and, the other characters present don't have to wait for them or even be aware of the thoughts at all.

It might work in a sitcom

I don't see how, unless it's one of those echoey voice-over things so we, the audience, hear what he's thinking... While the other characters unnecessarily and unrealistically sit and wait for it.

 

[AG31]

Personally, I find the phrasing about wanting to sample Kyle's stuff to be kind of suitable and objection-free regarding gay male attraction, but would find it crude, charmless and borderline creepy regarding a man's hetero attraction to a woman.

Creepy as in, if it weren't very very clear that the author were deliberately imparting that trait specifically upon the characater, for creepy-character characterization reasons, then I might project the unselfconscious creepiness onto the author.

This is very interesting. I think I agree, but don't know exactly why. What makes it OK for a gay interaction?

Edit: Well, I should refine this to say that I agree that it plays differently with a female character, not as believable. I still think having the scene at all at this point in the story is disruptive.

 

[Britva415]

This is very interesting. I think I agree, but don't know exactly why. What makes it OK for a gay interaction?

Because the "creepy" scale between two gay men is calibrated very very differently than the "creepy" scale between a man and a woman.

Should it be? That's a hard question, but, the practical reality is, it is.

 

[AG31]

Because the "creepy" scale between two gay men is calibrated very very differently than the "creepy" scale between a man and a woman.

Should it be? That's a hard question, but, the practical reality is, it is.

If I started a thread to explore this idea, do you think I'd get any joiners? I once posted a thread asking if there were (or why there weren't.. I forget) gay men in AH. Some bi men, like yourself, responded. I find this fascinating. I prefer to read stories about men interacting than hetero couples. But I'm definitely plain old vanilla straight female.

 

[Britva415]

If I started a thread to explore this idea, do you think I'd get any joiners?

Couldn't hurt to try and see! I'd probably post something to it.

 

[TheLobster]

What makes it OK for a gay interaction?

It doesn't. In fact it much more creepy than the non-gay version, unless there has been some indication beforehand that Kyle is into men and that at least in principle he wouldn't object.

 

[yowser]

See, I took this as a riff off the practice of 'wine pairings' - what kind of cheese goes with this Pinot? The 'sampling' then works because the 'pairing' automatically launches into a list of sensations the guy is conjuring up to go with the wine.

YMMVSMIB

(Your mileage may vary so much it's bizarre.)

 

[Britva415]

It doesn't. In fact it much more creepy than the non-gay version, unless there has been some indication beforehand that Kyle is into men and that at least in principle he wouldn't object.

If you had said "equally creepy," I'd have potentially considered there might be something to it, but this sounds like "gay panic" to me.

It's only between the MC's ears, it's just his thoughts. Kyle isn't aware of it. It isn't in his face. Nothing is being done to him.

And even if it was, the idea that gayness makes this more creepy than when the same thing involves a woman is indefensible.