Why do nice guys finish last?

[Zidane]

Re: Re: Agreed

I guess nice guys are just too open. Also some nice guys are just too nice.

CatEyes [/B]

Yes, that's basically me in a nutshell. I'm too nice for my own good. I'm almost tempted to become something I'm not because I'm just too damn lonely being nice. Its not fair, imo. But then again, life isn't fair, maybe that's why people sometimes consider it isn't worth living. It isn't fair.

 

[Thin Man]

Zidane

I agree with you, life is not fair. The saving grace as far as I am concerned is that although the "un nice" guys may get a lot of women, they seldom keep them.

Some may keep them, but most will not. The women however, in many cases, merely seek out another of the same ilk.

I have known women who could enter a room filled with people and within moments, make eye contact with that kind of guy.

Please, women of Lit, do not think that I paint all women with the same brush, as I in no way mean to disrespect any one of you.

I think I only speak in the broadest terms and merely reflect the feelings of many "nice" guys.

Zidane, the problem with role playing to get a woman is that you must always play that role. Gets old quickly!

Better to be yourself and be comfortable with it. The one you find will have also found YOU and not a poser.

I have no idea how old you are, but I have been around the block and put away wet more than a few times. Life is unbelievably cyclical, and from the gloom of today, there is always a sunrise to come.

There are women out there who desire and seek a decent man. It is as hard for them to find you,,,, as it is for you to find them.

 

[A Kilted Rogue]

Be patient...I was

My college experience was nothing to be proud of. However I am glad of one thing. By being a nice guy, I had more experiences that have stayed with me all these years than by being just another bad boy.

I was able to enjoy college more by just being there to listen to my female friends and make things better for them. No sex, no expectations, just good relationships.

I was a virgin until I got married. I was never into waiting in line for someone to decide I might be a good sex toy. STDs have never been my thing. Too many people were too promiscuous where I went to school and the guys outnumbered the women 7-3. I never thought those were very good odds. It was just an extension of high school for me.

Felix, just be yourself. Being someone you're not doesn't work. Women eventually see through it. That's why the bad boy thing doesn't work in the long run.

College for me was more about studying, but I still had my share of fun. Actually, when the pressure of sex wasn't there, my friendships with women actually grew. It still works now, all these years later.

Be good, be safe, but most importantly, be yourself.

That's my fourteen cents worth. Comments are welcome.

KR

 

[Zidane]

many times, I wish I could believe these stories and many times I want to believe them. But I've had so many bad things happen in my life that I just can't bring myself to find hope out there. And maybe that in itself is destroying my chances for a happy relationship, but its something I can't help. Its a bad habit of almost 10 years.

 

[A Kilted Rogue]

many times, I wish I could believe these stories and many times I want to believe them. But I've had so many bad things happen in my life that I just can't bring myself to find hope out there. And maybe that in itself is destroying my chances for a happy relationship, but its something I can't help. Its a bad habit of almost 10 years.

It's still possible, Zidane, maybe you're not finding the right people in the right places. Be patient, you won't be disappointed.

 

[TheCyberPoet]

Nice guys don't have to finish last...
Words from the Master.

First and foremost, you're a nice guy. You know that. And women know that they want a 'nice' guy, but don't exactly see any fireworks when they meet one. So, what's the ticket? The ticket is not appearing to be the nice guy for initial appearances, and then showing them you are when it counts. First of all, take inventory of what outward signs make bad boys into bad boys... Motorcycle? Convertible? Sports car? Tight jeans, pressed shirt? Good haircut? An "I can live without you" attitude? Any of those and more... you'll only need a few of those things.

Adopt some of the accouterments. Buy some flattering clothes (take some of those women that you know along and let them pick your outfits -- take 3 whoa aren't each other's best friends and buy anything all three agree would look hot on you, skip anything only two can agree on: get shoes, too). Get a good haircut and keep getting it every 3 or 4 weeks (let your stylist decide on your new cut -- she knows better than you do; if you use a barber, go find a stylist). OK, got style now? Big plus. You look like a million bucks If you've got some extra dough, get a motorcycle, or a zippy car (or at least wash & detail yours).

Next step: the attitude. You're a nice guy and you're not going to get laid and not going to find Ms Right anytime soon anyway, so you might as well admit this to yourself now (I think you already have). Given that you're not going to have any sucess and know it, you can now do the one thing that drives most college aged women zany (and many older ones): walk and talk as if you were all that without indicating that you're interested. This isn't really a bad boy thing -- you'll still ask about them (don't brag about yourself -- ask about them), listen to the answers they give you, digest the information -- and then ignore it for now (you'll need it later -- but if you act on what you were just told, you'll look desperate). Be among the last to arrive at any social gathering, and hold you shoulders erect when you walk in -- you look like a million bucks! Eye contact, smiles, you don't even have to say anything. Just nod. Being witty is difficult unless you've watched a zillion episodes of MASH, read every Monty Python and every Zalzney book ever, so rather than sticking you foot in your mouth, sip at your drink whenever you want to speak and just use your eyes. Or be absolutely outrageous -- pretend you are flamboyantly gay -- without the effeminate qualities ("Sweetheart, you look absolutely delicious!", "So, how are you tonight?") -- if you've ever heard of Flamboyant Ambedextrious Rex, be him. Don't be the last to leave -- rather, be one of the earlier ones. Don't by any means explain why -- just smile and nod and go. Keep it up for a month, and make sure you get good eye contact each time with the woman (women) you want to date.

You've suddenly got a rep, a look. She's seen you smiling and looking at her at various events. You've said hi and told her she looks good at those same events, but never gone into detail. Now for the dastardly deed... Practice this next part until you've got it down so pat you can say it in your sleep without a hint of nervousness or tongue-fumbling (and if you're still nervous, remind yourself that you aren't going to suceed anyway -- so you have nothing to lose): place your hand on her shoulder, stare directly into her eyes [eyes, up here, not down there at breast level -- no looking elsewhere], and say Exactly This: "I would really appreciate it if you would do me the honor of joining me for dinner [Thursday/tomorrow -- just never tonight]." Practice it on your friends, just for practice until you've got it down suave.

That's it. That's the golden line. That line has a 85% sucess rate. It's not corny. It's not insincere. It's absolutely true, heartfelt, well delivered, and that's what gives it it's sucess rate. And if she said yes, then you have your in. Time to be the nice guy again... for the most part. If she said no, or made some excuse, simply shrug mildly, and smile, and say "alright," (while smiling as if you knew something she didn't), and walk away (she'll chase you down if she really wanted to have dinner but couldn't). If you fail, then repeat with someone else -- but not in the first girl's presence. Oh, and just having said it will help your rep with other girls (they talk, you know).

If she said yes, get her phone number and tell her you'll call her. Then exit immediately. Don't call her for at least 4 hours, and whatever you do, don't leave a message if you get her voice mail; wait until you get her on the phone in person. Tell her "I'm looking forward to your company [Thursday evening/tonight/whenever]. I don't know where you live -- can you meet me here at 7?" Avoid too much chit-chat and get off the phone before you stick you foot in your mouth.

Cook dinner and get a bottle of wine. Clean the place up if it's not clean (no one wants a pig stye on a first date). Get a pink rose (red means love, pink means infatutation -- you don't know if you love her yet, easy tiger). Tonight is about her and only about her, not you. Your job is to be inquisitive without being offensive. Pretend you work for the CIA and are trying to get a background dossier going on her: ask about her likes, her dislikes, her childhood, her pets. Don't ask about her last boyfriend or her sex life at all (save that for a different day). If asked anything about yourself, smile, answer honestly but without excessive depth, and then turn it around into another question about her. If her glass gets less than half full, fill it up again. Your sole task tonight is to leave a wondeful impression by being all about her. No touchy-grabby, no thinking about getting lucky, and no over-analyzing until after she leaves. Don't push to end the evening at any point, but if she gets up and starts mumbling about having to go, stand up, take her hands in yours and look in her eyes and tell her (Quote): "I really enjoyed your company tonight [followed by a pause] Thank you." Give her your phone number, tell her to call if she wants to get together again, and see her out (but don't let her drive drunk).

Odds are very high that she will call. If you don't hear from her for three days, move onward, son, onward and try again with someone else. If she does call, be ready with a few questions that ask about more detail about something she mentioned (it will show her that you paid attention). Then tell her you are busy, but you'd like to call her later tonight -- what's the latest you can call? Call about 20 minutes before the cut off, and ask her what's she's doing. Turn off the lights at your place and concentrate strictly on the call. If she likes you, she'll go right past her bedtime to talk to you (a big sign that she's hooked), and you'll get deep into her psyche because her defenses are down due to being tired. Talk about her dreams for the future, and interject yours when she's done (don't interrupt her).
Pretty soon, you two will be dating and an item.

Trust me, I wrote the manual (now out of print; maybe it's time for a reprint).
Best Wishes and Best of Luck
=-= The CyberPoet

 

[Zidane]

sounds nice and all in theory, if I actually had three friends that were girls who helped me find clothes.

 

[TheCyberPoet]

If you have three female friends, then you can convince them to help you find clothes (shopping with someone else's money seems to be a national pasttime in the USA).

 

[Noelle]

Just thought I'd add my experience too. I dated lots of "bad boys" too over the past decade. They would be fun for awhile, but never lasted that long. Sex was usually great, but I wasn't thinking "this guy is the one." So like men get to sow their oats, women do too. When the time comes, you'll find the right girl. And believe that when a girl tells you, "it's me, and not you" it should be their loss. Good luck and don't lose hope.

 

[Super Dave]

Nice guys? Finish last?

The short answer to your question is that nice guys finish last because they do not offer superficially what women want.
Regardless what women say they want, (Nice guys who treat them with respect etc. etc...) what they really want is the buff guy with the nice haircut, tight jeans and an abusive attitude who will be a trophy to show their friends and will fuck them really good. The side effect is that they will also probably slap them around in the morning.

If you are looking to get laid by the dingy but attractive girls, the advice I have for you is this:
Be fashionable. I mean this in every sense of the word. Wear trendy clothes. Listen to trendy music. Get a trendy haircut. Drive a trendy car. Talk about trendy topics. STAY HIP.
When in conversation with said bimbo say what she wants to hear. (This is hardly ever the truth.) Be smooth.

If you are looking for a meaningful relationship, be yourself and be patient. But also stop wasting your time waiting for women to "come around". You are wasting your time hanging out with your female "friends" who lament to you about their poor relationships, but the only time they are talking to you is when they are not in one. Those "friends" are using you as a emotional tampon. Good luck to you.

Super Dave

 

[Super Dave]

Right on Cyber

Listen to cyber. He's got the goods.

 

[plesmone]

Isn't that the point of Mr Jeckel and Dr. Heide? When a nice guy acts like a bad boy, well, where's mr right?

 

[hockeymandan]

The way I see it, nice guys don't finish last at all. My mom always told me that if I treat ladies right, I'll have them falling all over me. Now, I've never exactly had THAT problem, but I've always treated every woman I've been with like, well, a lady. Some have told me they felt like a princess with me. And I don't mean that in a conceited way at all. I mean, since I'm not married or even attached at present, I'm obviously no master with the ladies or anything. But that's not the point. The point is that being a nice guy is exactly HOW I've gotten all of my girlfriends. And I've kept most of them for quite a while, generally. I'm almost 25, and I've had my share of girlfriends, only about 4 of which were very serious, but I've never really spent a whole lot of time being single. Not that I haven't had my heart broken or anything, because I definitely have. But I never lost a girl because I was a nice guy. I just haven't met the right one yet. But I'm sure that I will. And so will you. So my advice to you is to be even MORE of a nice guy. If you find someone you like, treat them like a goddess. And if it turns out that she's the right one, she'll be yours forever, because most girls have been with their share of assholes (since most men ARE generally assholes to women). So when they stumble across you, you're golden. So that's my two cents.

 

[Zidane]

I guess I'm just too shy to do much about anything.

 

[TheCyberPoet]

Ah, being shy is a totally different issue than being a "nice guy". What about you Felix (who started this thread)?

If you are inherently shy and therefore have difficulty meeting women (who don't know you exist/are available/etc because you're so quiet or withdrawn), then you need to learn to fake the outgoingness required to break the ice... or use your friends to do it (although, more times than not, they'll end up with the girl just for being the one who approached her). Most women prefer a confident male, and being shy seems to be a contradiction to that concept. So, you're in a catch-22. What to do, what to do? A few suggestions that might help.

First, get yourself a copy of the book "How make friends and influence people." It's straight-up advice on how to interact with others in such a way that you leave a positive impression with them -- and shouldn't compromise your own senses in any way. The book should be under $10 new, and under $5 used at an used bookstore. Read it in it's entirety. Then read it again. Then put it somewhere on your bookshelf where you can get to it.
Second, mirror practice. You don't have to be outgoing with you words necessarily, you can do it with your eyes and stance instead. Practice your facial expressions in a mirror, and make sure you practice 'grins with aire of confidence' (eyes open wide, medium smile, head turned slightly, shoulders back, chest out) and 'Hey there...' (slight upward movement of the eyebrows, curiosity turning into a grin). Most shy people involuntarily communicate they are shy by body posturing (slumped shoulders turned inward or forward, eyes a bit downcast when not actively looking at something, facial expression overly-relaxed and totally neutral); it's this that you are trying to defeat, so as to make yourself more readily approachable.

Remember, life is what you make it... and you are what you make yourself.

Good luck, and three cheers of encouragement from My end.
=-= The CyberPoet

 

[dpod]

Use the book

The best book on dating and dealing with people is the Dale Carnegie book. I have the twofer, " How to Win friends" and "How to live without worry". Use these and say to yourself nothing will happen if I don't try.
I used to be very shy now I'm only a little. Life will not come to you and most people are nice. Start a conversation with someone in public who you know you wont date married woman. It helps not to have that added pressure to "perform".
Try to enjoy life and see what happens.

BTW I also have the books on CD so i can listen while I drive or relax.

dpod

 

[virginleo20]

the books on "how to make friends", "how to influence people".. "how to gain power"... are all basically the same...
and the advice they give goes as follows...

Treat everyone well but dont be afraid to "stab them in the back" if necessary... and always smile regardless of how you are feeling or what you are doing. Since when you smile people generally forgive you much more easily then before and you can "stab" them again if necessary.

In short become a pretentious, smilyfaced ahole whom has loose morals and very little personality and with that you will succeed in anything.

even shorter... Become a Sociopath without getting caugth.


how nice is that

 

[slowfingers1]

Even shorter... Become a Sociopath without getting caugth.

how nice is that

Hey.. if it gets you laid

Kidding

Slowfingers

 

[Cheago]

The thing about nice guys............

Hey, i realize that in my short 20 years of existence i have seen very little of "the way the world works". However i can say that being a nice guy doenst mean you come in last.
I would like to think that I'm a nice guy, and in my line of work you wont find too many. I live in Korea where the woman to man raito is 1-5, so you would tend to think if nice guys finish last then i would never have a chance up here. But i have found that if you just tell women what you're thinking and not bullshit they will see you for the guy you are. There's a difference between being a nice guy and being an emotional door mat, ya know?
So just be real Philly dude, and the happiness will fiind you.

 

[TheCyberPoet]

I live in Korea where the woman to man raito is 1-5,

Am I to understand that in Korea, there are 5 males for each female? Or are you referring specificially to the US military's presence there?

You could always move to Tampa...
Female to male ratio for the city: 1.7 females per male (ok, most are senior citizens, but still).
University of South Florida here in Tampa (USF): 60% female, 40% male (that's 1.5 females for each male). I like them odds

=-= The CyberPoet

 

[dpod]

A little off the topic, but the dale carnegie books are not how to stab people in the back. They are generally treat people honestly, courtously, and never keep a chip on your shoulder. Don't knock what you don't know. I know since I have left my cynical attitude behind I'm a happier person and that's what counts.
dpod

the books on "how to make friends", "how to influence people".. "how to gain power"... are all basically the same...
and the advice they give goes as follows...

Treat everyone well but dont be afraid to "stab them in the back" if necessary... and always smile regardless of how you are feeling or what you are doing. Since when you smile people generally forgive you much more easily then before and you can "stab" them again if necessary.

In short become a pretentious, smilyfaced ahole whom has loose morals and very little personality and with that you will succeed in anything.

even shorter... Become a Sociopath without getting caugth.


how nice is that

 

[TheCyberPoet]

I concur: Carnegie's books are not about how to stab anyone in the back, but rather, how to make people feel good about themselves as a method of furthering their impressions of you, as subset of social skills many people don't seem to possess.

 

[SecretScribe]

I am currently attedning college in the philly area and have found that being a nice guy just doesn't work. I have some experience but are looking for more. I like people to get to know me before they judge me. I hope to hear from some women especially the in the philly area.
I would really like to know why nice guys finish last.

Nice guys don't finish last in my experience. If you finish last with some particular person ... I've found that you really didn't want to finish first with them anyhow.

JMHO
YMMV

SS

 

[1sexylady]

I am currently attedning college in the philly area and have found that being a nice guy just doesn't work. I have some experience but are looking for more. I like people to get to know me before they judge me. I hope to hear from some women especially the in the philly area.
I would really like to know why nice guys finish last.

The Bad Boys push the nice ones to the side and the nice ones walk away without pushing back or trying....

 

[capricious_chic]

One thing that perturbs me with this concept of "nice" guys and "nice" girls is that is it only your preception that you are "nice". You have labeled yourself, and are now a statistic to the masses.

Of the guys I know, who are self-proclaimed "nice" guys.. the situation seems to be that they want the "naughty" girls. The "nice" girls are fun to hang around, talk to, and are generally looked upon in a sisterly fashion. (sound familiar.. same coin, opposite side).

It is all very subjective.

Who cares if some girl doesn't want to go out with you.. have you ever asked why? Get some feedback from the girls that YOU want to be dating, but realize that in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter.

Wouldn't you rather be with someone who appreciates you as you are. Unless all you are looking for is a boinking, be selective.

As far as "bad boys" go.. there are many "nice" girls out there that wouldn't give them the time of day. I am one of them. I enjoy teasing a flirting with them.. because they can be oh so witty.. However, I would never seriously consider dating one of them. Men who have been around and boinked anything that moves just does not appeal to me.

Just a side note, one has to be happy with themselves before they can ever be happy with another person. Never look to another for happiness, because all you will find is despair. When one is happy with themselves, there is a certain confidence that radiates from them.. that is what is attractive.. and what the "bad" boys exude. Be the best you, you can be. Be confortable with yourself and in your own skin. Stay a bit aloof and take your time opening up to others.

I don't necessarily think that there is one person for everyone out there. One has to be open to the possibilities, and aware that what we are looking for doesn't always come in the package that we envision. Aesthetics fade.

"Nice" guys only finish last.. if they allow it.

Good luck in your quest!!