Why do men love war?

[sweetnpetite]

This question has been on my mind a lot lately- why do men love war?

 

[SnoopDog]

Not all men love war. But a lot of them. And a lot men love violence or are facinated by it. And why?
It's our genes I guess. In the end we ARE descendants of some violent, hunting cavemen. So probably we are driven by our genes and instincts and that's why we tend to be violent beings.
(This doesn't mean I'm FOR war or violence by the way)

Snoopy, dog looking for the wolf inside

 

[snooper]

Men love war ...

... because it keeps us fit and ready for the big battle - the battle of the sexes.

 

[Liar]

war
sucks
ass

Men love war just as much as women luve tupperware parties and knitting.

Because they are raised to.


Not every man is Denis Leary
---------
You will eat the meat folks, because this country was founded on two things. Meat, and war. You eat enough fucking meat, you wanna kill somebody. That's the way it works. That was the ultimate American dream. During that Persian Gulf War, I was sitting in my living room, naked, with a can of Budweiser and a three inch stake watching the war, live, on TV. I had a six foot erection with a giant cheeseburger on the end of it.
---------

 

[Boota]

I think men love the mechanics of war more than they actually love war. The devastating weapons that are on all the history channel shows and the stories of soldiers who accomplished incredible things are fascinating. That's not to say that it is a love of war, per se. But it is very impressive. Ask men who have been in war if they love war and I'm sure you will hear a resounding "No". I worked with a lot of Viet Nam veterans at my last job and those men had absolutely no love for war.

The only people I can imagine who would love war would be the ones who would never be called on to fight.

 

[lewdandlicentious]

This question has been on my mind a lot lately- why do men love war?

Sweetn,

The question is too simple. There are many aspects of war, which one are you asking about in particular?

Causing it? Creating it? Watching it? Commenting/commentating on it? Making programmes about it? or the actual brutal, "face to face" with the enemy side of war? Or, any one of the many other facets of it.

Or, is your question simply, "Why do men like to fight?" Which could include many aspects from all out war, to fisticuffs in a local bar on a Saturday night.

Are you talking about something you've seen on the news, where Bush and all his Generals appear to have a lust for it, or are you asking regarding some war in history??

I know you are one of a few here on the AH that likes to promote discussion, but your question this time is far too vague for me to direct comment at.

As one who has "Been and seen" I'd like you to further define your question please.

Lew.

 

[Guest]

Lew, I thought of you, honey, when I saw this thread.

I have a fair idea of your thoughts on the subject, and like you said, the question is very vague, so it isn't an easy one for you to answer at the moment.

Lou

 

[SummerMorning]

What men? What war?

 

[Pure]

If you talk to men who've been in war, esp. combat, they say it's some of the most intense and memorable (for a lifetime) experiences they've had. And of course the 'army buddies' who've covered each other's backs, are known to be very strongly bonded, sometimes for life.

All this is aside from the issue of what the goal of the war was, or what the soldiers thought they fought for. But let's say that those who were on the beaches of Normandy, for example, can correctly say they fought for freedom and be proud of it.

Sweet, I would add this. If you lok at democratic countries, US, Britain, you do find, in many cases, LESS war support (in the form of voting for certain candidates) among women.

BUT, even if that's 2 to 1 against, that means 1/3 of women have generally supported their country going to war, be it Iraq Falklands Vietnam. AND this is a time when women may actually participate (i.e., they aren't just voting that someone else, men, be sent)--as some have.

The cheering crowds for Hitler were well supplied with women.

 

[Somme]

I love the absence of it.

 

[oggbashan]

Seen it. Didn't like it.

Og

 

[Somme]

Time for a gin, oggs?

 

[oggbashan]

I'd go to the British Legion club for the gin except I was in the wrong war - not one of ours but someone else's.

Unfortunately countries have to be prepared for war. The 1930s showed us the folly of assuming that peoples are peaceful.

We should be aware of the need to be ready to defend overselves but we don't have to like that need.

Og

 

[sweetnpetite]

Re: Re: Why do men love war?

Sweetn,

The question is too simple. There are many aspects of war, which one are you asking about in particular?

Causing it? Creating it? Watching it? Commenting/commentating on it? Making programmes about it? or the actual brutal, "face to face" with the enemy side of war? Or, any one of the many other facets of it.

All of the above.

Are you talking about something you've seen on the news, where Bush and all his Generals appear to have a lust for it, or are you asking regarding some war in history??

War movies, books about war, tv shows, reenactments of war, board games of war (ie Risk, Chess, ect), the History Channell, GI Joe Video Games...

(Is there any facet of life that is not infiltrated by the ideas/ ideals of war? It just seems to be everywhere.)

Male culture seems to be full of war.

The question had nothing to do with Bush. More to do with things in general I just keep seeing lately. Although people often say "nobody wants war" or "nobody likes war" I find it hard to believe when there seems to be a total fascination with the subject.

I am well aware that those who have been to war have no love for it. My stepdad is a Vietnam Vet. One misguided young man actually told him that he wished he had been there!!! I know another guy who insists he was there in some past life.

I know you are one of a few here on the AH that likes to promote discussion, but your question this time is far too vague for me to direct comment at.

As one who has "Been and seen" I'd like you to further define your question please.

Lew.

Sorry, yes it was vague. I was so tired by the time I posted. On the other hand, asking a vague question is a good way to get answers that are not influenced by your questioning method.

I didn't mean the question to be disrespectful, or sexist or anything. It's just something that I do not understand, and it makes me rather sad.

ON a show I watch a woman told her mother that her husband plays paintball and the mother said, in shock; "He celebrates WAR as a GAME?" I guess that the audience is supposed to think that she is overreacting, but I totally see her point and agree. Mabye I should have asked "Why does male culture celebrate war?" which is a good questioin- but what I really just want to know the answer to the deceptivly simple and possibly vague question that sort of hurts my heart to ask- Why do men love war?

-NOT that ALL men do, and also not that only MEN do, but as a general trend (perhaps a generalization) it seems to hold true. I see it everywhere. It makes me sad.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Because they are raised to.


I think this may be the best answer.

 

[dirtylover]

I came across some controversial book saying that men had enjoyed war - it made them feel more alive to be in full battle, as it where. I wish I could remember what it was called.

Also, Roald Dahl (the now deceased, unsurpassable children's author) wrote almost nostaligically of his time as an RAF pilot.

I guess the exhiliration of being so close to death, the feeling of comraderie, the whole life affirming aspect of it...The fight to survive, the hunger for battle, the lust for blood - it's all as natural in our species as any other. Unfortunately, it is kind of out of context with our newly evolved sapience.

The future of society very much depends on whether we, as a species, will overcome our innate greed and violence - or at least direct it in a positive direction. The idea that war is wrong is high-level - a social construct; the desire to fight is something we're born with.

Conversely, we also instinctively want to care for others, especially children. Perhaps our war-mongering tendencies could be artificially culled in some kind of virtual reality thingy-ma-jig - oh yeah, that's what computer games and films address...

 

[sweetnpetite]

I'd go to the British Legion club for the gin except I was in the wrong war - not one of ours but someone else's.

Unfortunately countries have to be prepared for war. The 1930s showed us the folly of assuming that peoples are peaceful.

We should be aware of the need to be ready to defend overselves but we don't have to like that need.

Og

I can appreciate that- but why is WAR such a big part of men's 'leigure (sp?) time'?

Why read books about war?

Why play games/videogames about war for fun?

Why make movies, tv shows, cartoons and toys about war?

Even my stepdad who as I said previously is a Vietnam Vet, seemed to enjoy his weekends playing war games on the weekends.

Do men just block out the reality of what war really is- and focus on the 'brotherhood' the 'strategy' the 'conquest' and the 'heroism'? IS the glamour of war a carefully crafted illusion to maintain a certain power structure? Or is it something about chrosomes and hormones? (the old nature vs. nurture debate) Or something else???

[I'll tell you, I don't believe in the arguments of 'evoltutionary holdovers' that some like to quote. Besides that still doesn't address the problem of why Cavemen love(ed) war. And if evolution were in fact true (personally, I'm not convinced) then why haven't we evolved *past* caveman behavoir? That would seem to indicate that there was in fact *no* evolution if we can't evolve out of ancient responses from millions of years ago.--but this too is almost an entirely different subject, and not the crux of my question.]

 

[dirtylover]

Because they are raised to.


I think this may be the best answer.

I totally disagree - war has been a permanent fixture through out human history, regardless of culture, race, beliefs etc etc

A lioness may teach her young the tactics of hunting, but the killer instinct is there already.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I came across some controversial book saying that men had enjoyed war - it made them feel more alive to be in full battle, as it where. I wish I could remember what it was called.

I was thinking that maybe men created war in order to combat the uncertainty of death. To turn it from something that they couldn't control or understand into something that was in there hands. To take the inevitable and give themselves a chance to face it and either survive, or to die for a greater purpose, rather than simply expire, unsung and unremembered.

Also, women seemed to preside over life, something that they had no way to take control over- so they seized upon the other great mystery for themselves.

I don't know if that sounds sexist or whatever, I think in the begining of time before there was political correctness and women's lib andwhatnot, the world probably was divided very sharply in a way that we would probably lable as 'sexist' today.

However, even if those are the early beginings of war- I think that they are long forgotten today and taken over by the culture and glamour (ie, illusion) of heroism, patriotism, masculinity and whatnot.

Maybe what men love is not WAR but THE MYTH OF WAR?

Am I answering my own quesion?

I still wish that they didn't...

 

[dirtylover]

re: Regarding nature v nurture

-these are usually, mistakenly, thought to be mutually exclusive concepts. In reality, they work in tandem.

ie

Our genes (evidently) will affect our behaviour. Less obviously, our behaviour will affect our genes. For example, if I decide to move to Africa, or eat loads of fatty foods, different genes will come into play, cf w/ the ones currently operating.

I am predisposed to fight other males, my genes set me up to do that. However, I am also predisposed to value other human life...


crap, i've completely lost my train of thought, but I'll post anyway, in case it comes back to me...

Why do men like violent films etc? -because it resonates on a primeaval yearning - that's my thinking anyway...

 

[Guest]

Sweet,

Excuse me if I am speaking out of turn here...

But, you are coming across as if absolutely no war has ever been a necessary evil, and all wars were started by men (and men alone), purely to give them a purpose in life.

What a load of bollocks!

I am a peaceful person, by nature. I hate arguments, disagreements, and so on, but, nobody can ever tell me that some wars (most wars, in fact) haven't been necessary.

My Grandad fought in the trenches of WW1 - at the age of 16 (!!)- and watched the head of the soldier next to him get blown from his body, while he received shrapnel wounds to his own face, all in the name of giving his own life greater meaning and purpose??? I don't think so.

This thread is doing nothing but romanticising war and be-littling those who have fought to defend those freedoms which we so wantonly toss around.

There is nothing to love about the grim reality of war, but every single person who has fought in a war, in my country's name, deserves my love and respect.

Lou

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Sweet,

Excuse me if I am speaking out of turn here...

But, you are coming across as if absolutely no war has ever been a necessary evil, and all wars were started by men (and men alone), purely to give them a purpose in life.

What a load of bollocks!

I am a peaceful person, by nature. I hate arguments, disagreements, and so on, but, nobody can ever tell me that some wars (most wars, in fact) haven't been necessary.

My Grandad fought in the trenches of WW1 - at the age of 16 (!!)- and watched the head of the soldier next to him get blown from his body, while he received shrapnel wounds to his own face, all in the name of giving his own life greater meaning and purpose??? I don't think so.

This thread is doing nothing but romanticising war and be-littling those who have fought to defend those freedoms which we so wantonly toss around.

There is nothing to love about the grim reality of war, but every single person who has fought in a war, in my country's name, deserves my love and respect.

Lou

Lou, I think you summed that up very beautifully.
The media doesn't really cover the real behind the scenes images of war or the impact it has on those who are engaged in it, not just the soldiers but the civilians.

It's a shame that your grandfather had to go through that a such a young age.
My father served in Korea, he was in a tank. He never spoke of the war to us because he believed you didn't tell that kind of thing to children. He would only speak of the countries he was in, and how beautiful they were and of the people that lived there.
I had found out only a few years back that they were under fire and the last man to enter the tank was killed. I can't imagine what that was like.
It's a difficult subject to discuss.
~A~

 

[dirtylover]

I was thinking that maybe men created war

It's a quirk in anthropology that for quite some time H. sapiens and H. habilis (I think it was) lived quite happily together throughout Africa, Asia and Europe. Then suddenly, all the H. habilis' were unexplainedly wiped out...no one really know why (please correct me if I'm wrong here)

Personally, I subscribe to the notion that if you have two tribes of humans, one which is peaceful and one that is a slightly violent and xenophobic, it'll be the violent ones that propogate.

eg
When the Vikings came raping and a pillaging (War! That's what it's good for!) - they passed on their violent ways.

Extrapolating from cranial volumes, and observational data of tribes, it is thought that humans naturally have a 150 or less individuals per group. Our ability to communicate and socialise on a higher level is what's enabled us to get where we are today - caring, yet violent; empathetic, yet xenophobic and discriminating; humble, yet aggressive...

jeez, I talk a lot of shit...

 

[dirtylover]

WWII wouldn't have been necessary if no-one had started it.

The falklands was unnecessary - except that it boosted Thatcher's rating.

War in Iraq - ...

I think war may be a necessity on an individual, personal level - but why, on a societal level, do we have wars? They are wasteful in terms of lives and resources, but we still, as Sweet points out, revel in all their gory details.

 

[Guest]

WWII wouldn't have been necessary if no-one had started it.

The falklands was unnecessary - except that it boosted Thatcher's rating.

War in Iraq - ...

I think war may be a necessity on an individual, personal level - but why, on a societal level, do we have wars? They are wasteful in terms of lives and resources, but we still, as Sweet points out, revel in all their gory details.

WWII - Who are you blaming for starting it? It was Chamberlain who declared war on Hitler. He should've just let him get on with his invasion of the whole of Europe, I suppose? Hitler breaking the Munich Agreement was an over-sight, I guess.

The Falklands - I doubt it felt unnecessary to those BRITISH citizens who live on the Falkland Islands - BRITISH territory. I guess we should've just let Argentina have 'em?

I suppose it's all about perspectives.



Lou