Who has to deal with more bigotry

[LucyH]

...out lesbians or transwomen who don't always pass? What about hate crimes?

I'm not that concerned about getting the right answer as knowing what people's first guess would be, and why. It's for a story. I'm trying to decide how a character who doesn't have my experience would think. (The character's husband became her wife, and she's nervous about how this is going to go - it's all uncharted territory.) To me, the lesbian (or being perceived as such, anyway) part is "Meh, whatever. Occasionally somebody makes stupid remarks. The sky doesn't fall," but I vaguely recall finding the prospect scary before that experience of the sky not falling.

 

[Safe_Bet]

...out lesbians or transwomen who don't always pass? What about hate crimes?

I'm not that concerned about getting the right answer as knowing what people's first guess would be, and why. It's for a story. I'm trying to decide how a character who doesn't have my experience would think. (The character's husband became her wife, and she's nervous about how this is going to go - it's all uncharted territory.) To me, the lesbian (or being perceived as such, anyway) part is "Meh, whatever. Occasionally somebody makes stupid remarks. The sky doesn't fall," but I vaguely recall finding the prospect scary before that experience of the sky not falling.

My first take is that transwomen who don't always pass would have a harder time. I think, for the abusers & harrassers, there is a greater bullying factor towards someone they perceive to be a "sissy" man (not that that is what they really are. It take HUGE bravery to be TG, IMO).

That said, it is NEVER simply "Meh, whatever. Occasionally somebody makes stupid remarks" for ANYBODY in the LGBT community. Fundie assholes, drunk redneck and/or thrill seeking frat boys are equal opportunity "queer thumpers" so lesbians, gays, active bisexuals AND transsexuals are ALL targets for systematic harassment, abuse and bodily harm.

 

[LucyH]

My first take is that transwomen who don't always pass would have a harder time. I think, for the abusers & harrassers, there is a greater bullying factor towards someone they perceive to be a "sissy" man (not that that is what they really are. It take HUGE bravery to be TG, IMO).

That said, it is NEVER simply "Meh, whatever. Occasionally somebody makes stupid remarks" for ANYBODY in the LGBT community. Fundie assholes, drunk redneck and/or thrill seeking frat boys are equal opportunity "queer thumpers" so lesbians, gays, active bisexuals AND transsexuals are ALL targets for systematic harassment, abuse and bodily harm.

No, really, that was my life. It was rare for anybody to be rude to us at all, let alone aggressive. Perhaps I was just lucky - I mean, I KNOW I'm lucky to live here and now - but that was my experience.

Edited to add: Sorry, in my knee-jerk "Don't tell me how I felt, 'cause that's how it was" reaction, I forgot to thank you for answering the question, Safe Bet. Thank you for answering in a helpful way.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm going to agree with Safe Bet. And it's even more dangerous to be trans woman of color.

 

[emap]

I really think it depends on where you live. Canada did not get the huge allotment of terminally stupid and hateful people, US got both groups, they got lost.

Not being a lesbian or trans I can only comment on what I know. What I know is that lesbians are supposedly virgins who haven't met the right man. This is guy thinking, I mean really at least half of the rapes happen in the US because he wants to get laid and she says no I'm not ready or don't want to now.

Now it is actually harder for a trans woman because unless she is a trans lesbian, the guy she wants to fuck her, can get really pissed that she has a cock and beat the shit out or kill her. Can happen if she goes to a club and a guy who knows she was born a guy spots her he may, this is fairly common even, out her as a man in a dress to the club.

Many of the terminally stupid think that a trans that makes them go I wouldn't mind fucking her, means she is in league with the devil and needs to be killed. Sad but true, the US is a fucked up place and I can't tell if it is getting better, worse, or staying exactly in the same place.

Not to say it's all that different in other places for a trans woman who likes men and was one.

 

[Bramblethorn]

...out lesbians or transwomen who don't always pass? What about hate crimes?

Trans women.

I'm dubious of the "one in twelve trans women end up being murdered" figure that gets quoted a lot; the sourcing seems to be rubbery and I suspect it'd be difficult to get reliable data. But certainly it's very high.

http://www.passportmagazine.com/blo...ransgender-americans-live-in-extreme-poverty/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/05/murder-statistics-of-transgender-people/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/27/trans-murder-rates_n_3824273.html

 

[stickygirl]

With the greatest respect this is a no brainer. A quick Google of suicide rates, abuse, murders of trans* people... Even those trans* ( men and women ) who 'pass' ( bigoted description to begin with ) still face bigotry and hate crimes from their family and pre-transition life. Then there's officialdom, to whom your former gender is often revealed, supposedly in confidence. Yea right...
Anyhows thanks for asking - now you know :-\

 

[Safe_Bet]

With the greatest respect this is a no brainer. A quick Google of suicide rates, abuse, murders of trans* people... Even those trans* ( men and women ) who 'pass' ( bigoted description to begin with ) still face bigotry and hate crimes from their family and pre-transition life. Then there's officialdom, to whom your former gender is often revealed, supposedly in confidence. Yea right...
Anyhows thanks for asking - now you know :-\

I need you to edju-ma-kate me, hon.

Is there a "non-bigoted" term of transmen/women who "pass" / "don't always pass"??? (and by "pass/not pass" I'm assuming them to be in some stage of reassignment surgery - not that they should not EVER be accept for who they really are, regardless of current genitalia.)

 

[stickygirl]

I need you to edju-ma-kate me, hon.

Is there a "non-bigoted" term of transmen/women who "pass" / "don't always pass"??? (and by "pass/not pass" I'm assuming them to be in some stage of reassignment surgery - not that they should not EVER be accept for who they really are, regardless of current genitalia.)

^^Nope.
I was kinda thinking they still had their clothes on Sorry if I've misunderstood - I didn't have SRS in mind

 

[haurni]

Canada is working on classifying violence against transgender people that occurs specifically because of their status as a hate crime. I've found some stats for Canada re. LGBTQ hate crimes but nothing that separates out incidents against transgender individuals.

The NCAVP in the US has some stats on that, though, which support Stella's comment (not that I doubted it).

Police-Reported Hate Crime in Canada, 2010 (Statistics Canada)

As in previous years, there were three primary motivations for police-reported hate crime in 2010. Race or ethnicity was the most common, accounting for over one-half (52%) of all incidents. Another 29% of hate crimes were motivated by religion and 16% were motivated by sexual orientation.

Almost two-thirds (65%) of hate crimes motivated by sexual orientation in 2010 were violent. In comparison, 34% of racially motivated hate crimes and 17% of religiously motivated hate crimes were violent.

Self-reported information from the 2009 General Social Survey (GSS) on Victimization suggests that about one-third (34%) of incidents perceived by victims to have been motivated by hate were subsequently reported to police.

Hate crimes motivated by sexual orientation were also more likely than other types to result in physical injury to victims. More specifically, injuries were reported in 59% of violent incidents motivated by sexual orientation, compared to 40% of racially motivated violent incidents and 14% of religiously motivated violent incidents. For all three motivations, the majority of injuries (about 9 in 10) sustained in violent incidents were relatively minor in nature, possibly requiring some first-aid.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2012001/article/11635-eng.pdf

2012 Annual Hate/Bias Crime Statistical Report (Toronto Police Service)

The three most targeted groups since 2006 have been the Jewish community, the Black community, and the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender (LGBT) community. In 2012, the Jewish community, followed by the Black community, and the LGBT community were the most victimized groups.

In 2012, 19 of the 142 hate/bias occurrences were motivated by sexual orientation. These occurrences were mainly assault (9), mischief to property (6), criminal harassment (2) and robbery (1) (refer to Appendix D). In 2012, the number of assault occurrences motivated by sexual orientation decreased from 10 in 2011 to nine occurrences in 2012. The nine assault occurrences involved a total of ten victims. The victims' ages ranged from 18 to 45 years. In all of the assault occurrences, the victims were subjected to derogatory comments and were either punched, pushed, or spat upon by the suspect during the assault.

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/publications/files/reports/2012hatecrimereport.pdf

Hate Violence Against Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, and HIV-affected Communities in the United States in 2011 (NCAVP)

Hate violence murders:

Anti-LGBTQH murders increased from 27 in 2010 to 30 in 2011, an 11% increase. This reflects the highest number of murders ever recorded by NCAVP. 87% of all murder victims in 2011 were people of color yet LGBTQH people of color only represented 49% of total suvivors and victims. 50% of murder victims in 2011 were non-transgender men, 40% were transgender women, 7% were non-transgender women, and 3% were gender non-conforming. Transgender women were also disproportionately murdered only representing 10% of overall survivors.

http://towleroad.typepad.com/files/ncavphvreport2011.pdf

 

[naughtyinsilk]

I believe taking into consideration the group of friends I have that being a transwoman or indeed a transman is more likely to be greeted with violent hostility than in general situations for lesbians, though the reality for anyone of an LGBT persuasion is that at any time in any place you may be attacked just because of what others perceive of you.
Working as a drag queen, I tend to get left alone in the main, however unusually last weekend I was pushed around and verbally abused by a group of 3 boys in their late teens, while at a train station, fully en femme, I was not scared surprisingly, though I did threaten to impale the next one that come near me with my 6" stiletto through their head.
Fortunately the situation calmed, for me anyway, when a number of blokes from the rugby club I had been performing at, turned up on the platform and decided to drag them away and explain in their own inimitable way why they were out of order.

 

[LucyH]

With the greatest respect this is a no brainer. A quick Google of suicide rates, abuse, murders of trans* people... Even those trans* ( men and women ) who 'pass' ( bigoted description to begin with ) still face bigotry and hate crimes from their family and pre-transition life. Then there's officialdom, to whom your former gender is often revealed, supposedly in confidence. Yea right...
Anyhows thanks for asking - now you know :-\

I know what you mean about "pass." I realize it makes no sense to refer to someone passing for what they are. Like, I pass for a Canadian all the time, eh?

I guess I could say, "doesn't ping anyone's radar as trans if she doesn't want to." I wish I could think of something more succinct.

 

[LucyH]

^^Nope.
I was kinda thinking they still had their clothes on Sorry if I've misunderstood - I didn't have SRS in mind

Well, my original question assumed clothes on. No nudist colonies involved.

 

[LucyH]

Thank you so much for all the helpful answers. You guys are fantastic. Double thanks to Haruni for the Canadian statistics.

It seems like I won't confuse people if I write this story the way I want to write it then, with my protagonist worrying more about her wife's safety over the trans thing than about them both being harassed about being lesbians.

Now that I've been pondering this for a couple of days, I think that the only time it ever occurred to strangers to think I was a lesbian was when I was holding my girlfriend's hand or something. I think the fact that I always had an ally at my side every time somebody said something rude to me/us about lesbians probably made it easier to deal with and, whether rational or not, made me feel safer.

 

[emap]

Others around is always a good idea. It seems the hate crimes are only done to those alone and the people attacking outnumber. Says something about those sorts doesn't it.

Anyway I think the pass thingy is in reference to she looks like a girl who was born a girl. Which is a good thing if you happen to have been a boy and don't want to be.

 

[LucyH]

Others around is always a good idea. It seems the hate crimes are only done to those alone and the people attacking outnumber. Says something about those sorts doesn't it.

I suppose 2 people are less likely to be outnumbered, true.

Anyway I think the pass thingy is in reference to she looks like a girl who was born a girl. Which is a good thing if you happen to have been a boy and don't want to be.

Yes, that is what I mean, and what I understand "passing" to mean in this context, to most people.

But, extending the nationality analogy, it would be bizarre for me to say that my parents, who weren't born in Canada but are now Canadians, are "passing" for Canadians because they sound and act like Canadians and people don't immediately guess that they're from somewhere else. That's not passing. It's just being.

Or a person can change their religion. Do people then say they're passing as believers because they weren't born into their faith? Generally, no.

So why do we say "passing" when referring to somebody who's transgender? It kind of implies that there's something less legit about changing your official gender membership than, say, your nationality or religion. Like, maybe you're not a real man or a real woman - just passing for one.

So yeah, I can definitely see how that could be problematic. In fact, thinking about it leaves me feeling slightly irritated.

 

[haurni]

Tangentially related to 'passing' and also to the issue of transwomen and feminism, I ran across this the other day:

http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=123

 

[stickygirl]

Sorry, I just assumed 'passing' was commonly understood. To me, if you're in a public place everyone's eyes are scoping each other out: men are checking out the women. A man is basically seeing if you're worth fucking, plain and simple. If you don't fit into his categories "fuckable" or "looks like my grandma" then he'll do a double-take like "wearing a dress but something's wrong" then you'll see the look - the look of horror and disgust on his face: you don't pass his inspection.

Let me add a rider to this - I'm making huge generalisations here and naturally not everyone is like that, but the ones who pick out a trans* and then beat her up for just being who she is are included.

Lucy - I don't think you'd have any problems in the UK nor more than any hetero woman, because the public have been exposed to plenty of lesbianism through soap shows and the media: it's not a big deal anymore. Men still don't understand it but they accept it with the usual BS "just a phase she's going through, hasn't met the right man.."

Just looking back at your original question research - here's a lady who is in that position: she was a father but now is a woman and has stayed with her wife. She's a lovely lady and talks in a very down to earth, caring way. Defo worth a look

http://youtu.be/pCcFUU8Mdis

 

[richfun]

Sorry, I just assumed 'passing' was commonly understood. To me, if you're in a public place everyone's eyes are scoping each other out: men are checking out the women. A man is basically seeing if you're worth fucking, plain and simple. If you don't fit into his categories "fuckable" or "looks like my grandma" then he'll do a double-take like "wearing a dress but something's wrong" then you'll see the look - the look of horror and disgust on his face: you don't pass his inspection.

Let me add a rider to this - I'm making huge generalisations here and naturally not everyone is like that, but the ones who pick out a trans* and then beat her up for just being who she is are included.

Lucy - I don't think you'd have any problems in the UK nor more than any hetero woman, because the public have been exposed to plenty of lesbianism through soap shows and the media: it's not a big deal anymore. Men still don't understand it but they accept it with the usual BS "just a phase she's going through, hasn't met the right man.."

Just looking back at your original question research - here's a lady who is in that position: she was a father but now is a woman and has stayed with her wife. She's a lovely lady and talks in a very down to earth, caring way. Defo worth a look

http://youtu.be/pCcFUU8Mdis

I think in the UK (I just don't know the situation in the USA) the attitude to transgender people and gay and lesbian people among the younger generation has come on fantastically even in the last five years. In the older generation, and I work with and care for and about older people, the old bigotry is unchanged, that is my experience anyway.

 

[emap]

It's pretty bad over here. There was in this section last year I think a linked story about a trans woman that went to McDonalds and got her ass kicked by two or three women. The workers were cheering it on and it all got posted to Youtube.

That is one of the nicer bad things that happen. I remember here in Arizona a few years ago now, a woman was killed in her own home, because she had a dick and hadn't told the man yet. Or maybe was going I was born a man but I am a woman and I want to your girlfriend so he flipped out and killed her. Because he was attracted to her.

Another one is similar, but had fucked her a few times then found out she was a he and did the same thing. His defense was, she had not told me and I flipped out because it's against my religion.

 

[richfun]

It's pretty bad over here. There was in this section last year I think a linked story about a trans woman that went to McDonalds and got her ass kicked by two or three women. The workers were cheering it on and it all got posted to Youtube.

That is one of the nicer bad things that happen. I remember here in Arizona a few years ago now, a woman was killed in her own home, because she had a dick and hadn't told the man yet. Or maybe was going I was born a man but I am a woman and I want to your girlfriend so he flipped out and killed her. Because he was attracted to her.

Another one is similar, but had fucked her a few times then found out she was a he and did the same thing. His defense was, she had not told me and I flipped out because it's against my religion.

As long as there people like you to stand up to this shit, bigotry can be beaten. But as with race, feminism, mental illness it is a long process. Thanks for being you. X