Who agrees with Jessica?

[StillStunned]

@Devinter is not only a very nice guy, he's also very sensible and seems to have a firm understanding of the matter. My suggestion is we all follow his wise words instead of launching into futile debates that won't ever help change anyone's mind.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

Are you suggesting that these experiences need healing?

If they are negative experiences, then yes. Writing about them is a way to make them normal and take back control.

 

[AlexBailey]

I've raised three boys and had a teenage foster daughter.

My oldest who went through bipolar treatment and diagnosis in his early teens had a head full of violent ideation, much of it inspired by movies and video games. Before he'd ever touched a firearm he wrote a description of the gun he wanted to bring to school - it has all of the best features of military grade weapons he'd learned about in video games, right down to the number of rounds an extended magazine could hold, how recoil would affect the aim, and how fast it could fire. He had a plan but fortunately he didn't have real world access to the weapon.

Interventions worked, lithium helped, and a weekend in juvenile detention provided the rock bottom turning point he needed.

Another friend wasn't so lucky. Those detail are more grim than I care to share again except to say a teen and a parent died at the hands of a messed up kid who thought it was cool to make the news. Apparently he receives fan mail in prison.

Not everyone has mental health issues, and restricting what healthy people can do is worth avoiding, but the fact remains that we live in a world where there will continue to be messed up minds who are unable to grasp empathy and will not value the lives of others. Some of those unhealthy minds will act on their violent inspirations.

 

[Devinter]

I've raised three boys and had a teenage foster daughter.

Firstly; I am sorry that you went through some truly traumatic experience. My condolences. But you bare witness to something incredibly important to the discussion - presuming that you raised all of your children the same way. And that is that even if you as a parent try your hardest, the biological differences - even within the same or similar genepool - are of note, and we all have different predispositions to certain behaviour traits and difficulties in life.

Some people are more likely to be violent than others. Some people are more likely to get depressed than others. Some people deal with things like nervousness and anxiety much worse than others. These differences can be physically studied with a brain scan, and I would go so far as to say that in the future - when we understand the brain better - we may be able to discern which weaknesses a person may have at an extremely early age, long before the brain is fully developed.

A strange but effective way of thinking about is it to look at it as the opposite of our biological strengths. Not just the genes that may for instance help us grow tall or strong - but things like TALENT. With enough effort, a person can learn just about anything - but there are people among us with a certain affinities that make it easier for them to learn and excel in specific fields. For instance; If we take a group of people whom all love to play the guitar, and make them all practice for an equal amount of time each day, a few people in that group are going to be naturally talented at it. To the point where we have child prodigy's at times. Naturally, we also have a few people on the opposite end of the bell curve. This applies to negative traits as well - some people are going to be on the worst percentage of the bell curve when it comes to things like dealing with urges, solving problems peaceful, and violent behaviour in general. In my opinion, we need to identify and help these people earlier than we currently do.

That being said, obviously you can still influence and be influenced - and also change your behaviour. Just like you mention; your son got intervention in time, and it worked! So it's not all biology. Far from it. Still, Alex - I hope you do not blame yourself for what transpired, or could have transpired. It's not on your shoulders.

 

[Voboy]

Many psychologists would also disagree with you, at least to a large degree, when you make a blanket statement that is difficult to base on empirical evidence. You say it's a pretty simple question but I would disagree; I don't think this is a "Yes or no" situation.

We know the human mind can be, in some ways, not only shaped by our surroundings but also altered even after we reach an adult stage. For instance, some people might make the false assumption that only unintelligent people could end up in an extremist group - say, a religious ordeal that differs from mainstream beliefs, like a cult for instance. This is not the case. According to my research, most people - under the right conditions - can fall prey to some degree of brain washing, and it doesn't necessarily take as great of a push as one might first assume.

But how is this effect achieved? Well, there's many factors but the biggest one is the isolation from outside influences and silencing of opposing views. This can unfortunately create an environment in which it is quite swift that a person begins to break down in some regard. Yes, even their morals can falter because they do not believe that what they are doing is necessarily wrong. And just like in your military service example from earlier, people in these situations may eventually do things that society at large would find deplorable, and not really see the issue - just like you, most likely, felt less guilty being in combat with foreign people rather than fighting your own people.

But studying the criminally insane is generally highly different. Most of those that go on to do the most horrible of deeds have shown signs of troublesome behaviour from an early age. In some cases even when they've grown up in a family home with loving parents and where all of their siblings turned out just fine. Therefore, most would argue that there's a strong biological factor at play as well. Are these people more likely to commit a terrible thing such as senseless killing because of being influenced by violent materials, and also by violent people? Quite likely. But are these same individuals also likely to do the same thing and reach the same point eventually without those external factors? Yes, in my opinion.

And let's think about the issue practically; it's impossible to completely remove all of these external factors entirely. We would have to censor books, tv shows, movies, social media, the internet at large, the news, and most likely even our speech. And even if we managed all of this, there's absolutely no guarantee that we'd reduce the amount of senseless violent crimes occurring. Because there is a noteworthy chance that zero exposure to such matters doesn't imprint how WRONG these things are quite as clearly. Therefore, it's possible such crimes would even go up with less exposure to it. And if we reduce the number of outside influences that can affect a human being by not properly reporting on what happens in the world - by silencing news media - we create a greater sense of isolation in the individuals mind, causing a larger chance of a "us vs them" approach to take root in their minds. And as I've mentioned above, we know for a fact that creating some type of 'bubble' - be it the military, or a cult, or even a countries' culture and way of life at large - these matters definitely can have an impact. We do have a lot of statistical evidence for that. And plenty of historical examples.

So what is your proposed solution? And with some type of censorship in place, how can you be certain that you're creating a better world, and not just causing other potential problems to occur as a result?

/thread.

Blaming any one variable is a great way to reinforce one's own biases. The truth is that life is far, far too complicated to be able to definitively state any one factor is "responsible for triggering" maladaptive behaviors.

With freedom comes risk; that's a tale as old as time. We are free to write what we wish and readers are free to read what they wish. If there is a risk that my words are "inspiring" behavior of which I don't approve, that risk is in my view so infinitesimally tiny that it's not even quantifiable. So I'll just keep writing.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

/thread.

Blaming any one variable is a great way to reinforce one's own biases. The truth is that life is far, far too complicated to be able to definitively state any one factor is "responsible for triggering" maladaptive behaviors.

With freedom comes risk; that's a tale as old as time. We are free to write what we wish and readers are free to read what they wish. If there is a risk that my words are "inspiring" behavior of which I don't approve, that risk is in my view so infinitesimally tiny that it's not even quantifiable. So I'll just keep writing.

I love this.

 

[Devinter]

I love this.

Likewise. That was well said, @Voboy - and furthermore, let's not forget that our writing is far more likely to inspire good things. To spice up someone's sex life, perhaps - bringing warmth, passion, and happiness into their lives. Theoretically, these things could prevent people from falling into that dark pit that their mind might otherwise take them to, if the world just feels bleak all the time. I'm not suggesting we're some great saviours of mankind, but I think we all have had at least a few readers reach out to us with comments implying they have been truly touched by our work. So one could make a strong case for our work being more healing and less hurting, much like you mentioned above.

 

[RejectReality]

You could reduce all media to Sesame Street level and some disturbed individual might beat people to death while wearing a purple cape and counting "One! Ha, ha, ha, ha! Two! Ha, ha, ha, ha!" with every blow. Or maybe some deranged person listens to the Beatles white album and thinks Helter Skelter is a call for a race war.

Could happen.

 

[AlexBailey]

Firstly; I am sorry that you went through some truly traumatic experience. My condolences. But you bare witness to something incredibly important to the discussion - presuming that you raised all of your children the same way. And that is that even if you as a parent try your hardest, the biological differences - even within the same or similar genepool - are of note, and we all have different predispositions to certain behaviour traits and difficulties in life.

Some people are more likely to be violent than others. Some people are more likely to get depressed than others. Some people deal with things like nervousness and anxiety much worse than others. These differences can be physically studied with a brain scan, and I would go so far as to say that in the future - when we understand the brain better - we may be able to discern which weaknesses a person may have at an extremely early age, long before the brain is fully developed.

A strange but effective way of thinking about is it to look at it as the opposite of our biological strengths. Not just the genes that may for instance help us grow tall or strong - but things like TALENT. With enough effort, a person can learn just about anything - but there are people among us with a certain affinities that make it easier for them to learn and excel in specific fields. For instance; If we take a group of people whom all love to play the guitar, and make them all practice for an equal amount of time each day, a few people in that group are going to be naturally talented at it. To the point where we have child prodigy's at times. Naturally, we also have a few people on the opposite end of the bell curve. This applies to negative traits as well - some people are going to be on the worst percentage of the bell curve when it comes to things like dealing with urges, solving problems peaceful, and violent behaviour in general. In my opinion, we need to identify and help these people earlier than we currently do.

That being said, obviously you can still influence and be influenced - and also change your behaviour. Just like you mention; your son got intervention in time, and it worked! So it's not all biology. Far from it. Still, Alex - I hope you do not blame yourself for what transpired, or could have transpired. It's not on your shoulders.

Thanks for the kind words and the keen insight.

My oldest son is from a different mother than the others, she has bipolar and borderline personality disorder and was the single largest stress in his life. They are estranged now by my son’s decision.

Having an unhinged parent disrupts a kids foundation, it takes a lot of support from the others in their lives to help them find their way.

He is now healthy and off meds, still has bipolar but has the ‘tools in his box’ to self manage. Finding and stuffing his box with those tools was the result of a lot of hard work.

The friend who murdered the others was a foster kid who had just come of age and had no emotional support. He fell through the cracks and took others with him.

Empathy and outreach can help.

 

[AlexBailey]

You could reduce all media to Sesame Street level and some disturbed individual might beat people to death while wearing a purple cape and counting "One! Ha, ha, ha, ha! Two! Ha, ha, ha, ha!" with every blow. Or maybe some deranged person listens to the Beatles white album and thinks Helter Skelter is a call for a race war.

Could happen.

Helter Skelter? I’ve known some former members of the Manson Family, the people’s temple too. Good people who took the wrong path for a while, misled by charismatic psychopaths at a vulnerable time in their lives.

 

[AlexBailey]

I really hope you're wrong about this. I find it hard to believe that our brains are just organic machines that can be fully "scanned." Humans are unpredictable beings; they're fascinated by destruction and often act irrationally, taking perverse joy in actions that work against them. Sticking strictly to the "right" behavior can cause simmering disquiet, culminating in an outbreak.

I fully agree.

Someone can be a sociopath and still be a good person.

 

[Devinter]

I really hope you're wrong about this. I find it hard to believe that our brains are just organic machines that can be fully "scanned" and "fixed." Humans are unpredictable beings; they're fascinated by destruction and often act irrationally, taking perverse joy in actions that work against them. Sticking strictly to the "right" behavior can cause simmering disquiet, ultimately culminating in an outbreak.

The brain constantly changes so even if we could take a perfect image of the brain and understand what every little synapse did, they would change over time and look different later on. So do not worry. We're far more complex than simple machines.

However -I don't want to side-track or derail the thread or anything - but although it's science-fiction today, I believe that one day we'll be able to even take things one step further; scan and maybe even alter the DNA of unborn children so that we can manually select eye colour and such long before they are born. Maybe even prevent certain weakness and enhance certain strengths. I can foresee this having potentially devastating consequences.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Hey, you're the one who chose to state that Americans are citizens but the rest of us are 'subjects'... However, I suggest parking this here.

I wasn't the one making disparaging remarks about who was civilized and who wasn't.

 

[HordHolm]

I wasn't the one making disparaging remarks about who was civilized and who wasn't.

Neither was I. Again, let's leave it.

 

[lc69hunter]

I got very tired reading the verbosity after about page 2 of this thread.

I have a few comments.

Ben Franklin - Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

An unknown Sensai - Better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war.

If you are not capable of great violence, you are not peaceful, just harmless. After a career in the Marine Corps, I live by these precepts.

Violent content, neither on the internet, nor in the written word, spark violent actions. Roadrunner and Coyote cartoons didn't make me a killer. The problem is lack of perspective, because of lacking guidance on the homefront.

 

[AlexBailey]

The problem is lack of perspective, because of lacking guidance on the homefront.

How utterly true!

Please consider reaching out or donating to help foster children who have aged out of the system.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Neither was I. Again, let's leave it.

I've left it, you are the one who decided to selectively call attention to it.

 

[XerXesXu]

Happy mid-winter festival to one and all. Tonight is the big night here, and the big day, my wife’s birthday, is tomorrow.

Thank you for your responses. I didn’t find the arguments for banning cars compelling, those arguing for a ban on gun ownership I found less irrational. My thread wasn’t intended to be about banning anything; no one, I’m sure, wants to see a world in which a writer's typewriter is prised from his cold, dead, ink-stained hands. Nonetheless, I’ve gained insight into many Lit writers’ insecurities.

My query was along the lines of, ‘Is the pen mightier than the sword? Do you believe words can make the world a better or worse place, specifically, do you think your words can make the world a better place, and do you feel a responsibility when you write?’

I don’t believe the biological, natural-born-killers argument, nor the religious, free-will argument, that no matter what I write others will do what they want anyway. I’m more persuaded, by disposition, my lived experience, the professional opinion of experts and the proof of what is provable, of the, “It takes a village to raise a child’, argument. The child is a blob of clay on the potter’s wheel and is moulded by the contribution each of us who comes in contact with it makes, that we’re not responsible only for our own children but for every child.

Anyway, the kittens are running riot and I have a lot to do today, I’ll be glad when they’re big enough to eat.

Thanks once again.

Edited: Credit to Voboy.

 

[Voboy]

[verbiage] ...child.

Anyway, the kittens are running riot and I have a lot to do today, I’ll be glad when they’re big enough to eat.

Thank's once again.

*Thanks

 

[XerXesXu]

*Thanks

Thanks.

 

[Duleigh]

A pretty simple question, I would say.

To balance your assertion I offer this - could the failure of parenting and not having a father in the family be encouraging children to kill each other?

A pretty simple question, I would say. One with a pretty simple answer. In my view, as the father of six, the answer is a resounding yes.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/int...effects-absent-fathering-childrens-well-being

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...5/father-absence-father-deficit-father-hunger

https://www.princeton.edu/news/2017...hilds-loss-father-associated-increased-stress

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

To balance your assertion I offer this - could the failure of parenting and not having a father in the family be encouraging children to kill each other?

A pretty simple question, I would say. One with a pretty simple answer. In my view, as the father of six, the answer is a resounding yes.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/int...effects-absent-fathering-childrens-well-being

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...5/father-absence-father-deficit-father-hunger

https://www.princeton.edu/news/2017...hilds-loss-father-associated-increased-stress

Wait... just to make sure I understand you right, because I can not see a coherent thought in that post.

Are you an absentee father of six and blame yourself for your kids killing each other?
Or are you not an absentee father, and somehow think that's the sole reason why your kids didn't kill each other?

 

[AlexBailey]

To balance your assertion I offer this - could the failure of parenting and not having a father in the family be encouraging children to kill each other?

A pretty simple question, I would say. One with a pretty simple answer. In my view, as the father of six, the answer is a resounding yes.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/int...effects-absent-fathering-childrens-well-being

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...5/father-absence-father-deficit-father-hunger

https://www.princeton.edu/news/2017...hilds-loss-father-associated-increased-stress

There’s still more to it.

A bad parent or family can be even worse.
I recently posted about one of my employees upbringing.

He recently got out after 6 1/2 years of prison, in since his early twenties. His father was more like a bad uncle than a dad, a knucklehead who liked to set his kids against each other, to teach them how to fight and to establish a pecking order. Other people in the family were in and out of jail and prison and had the ‘honor among thieves’ thing going on - if someone hijacked and stole a car the last thing you would do is tell anyone… snitches get stitches.

A healthy family can have a system of rewards, an unhealthy family lives by ‘honor’.

This guy grew up where any insult needed revenge and it ended up with him beating a guy nearly dead because he looked at him the wrong way.

- Family values.

If no one is willing to reach out to these kids and provide some sort of stable influence they can easily fall to their ‘pride’.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

There’s still more to it.

A bad parent or family can be even worse.
I recently posted about one of my employees upbringing.

He recently got out after 6 1/2 years of prison, in since his early twenties. His father was more like a bad uncle than a dad, a knucklehead who liked to set his kids against each other, to teach them how to fight and to establish a pecking order. Other people in the family were in and out of jail and prison and had the ‘honor among thieves’ thing going on - if someone hijacked and stole a car the last thing you would do is tell anyone… snitches get stitches.

A healthy family can have a system of rewards, an unhealthy family lives by ‘honor’.

This guy grew up where any insult needed revenge and it ended up with him beating a guy nearly dead because he looked at him the wrong way.

- Family values.

If no one is willing to reach out to these kids and provide some sort of stable influence they can easily fall to their ‘pride’.

While there are certainly shitty dads out there, the evidence seems pretty solid that kids are better off with their dad in their life.
https://lifeisbeautiful.org/statistics-on-fatherless-homes/