Whine, Whine, Whine, want a little cheese?

[Cheyenne]

I posted this on another thread but it got buried in the back pages. For everyone who is whining about having Gore and Bush as our top choices for the presidential election, how many of you actually got off your ass and went to vote in the primary elections for the candidate of your choice?

I'll start. Of course I did!

 

[Magic Merlin]

Raises hand.

I voted for John McCain in our primary here in California. Even though it didn't count! Seems the Republicans arranged the primary here in such a way that my vote and those of other people who were not registered Republicans did not count in the primary. Only those who declared themselves with a party affiliation had their votes count.

 

[Cheyenne]

Re: Raises hand.

Only those who declared themselves with a party affiliation had their votes count.

Really? That doesn't sound right to me. How would the voting machine have the technology to know if you were a registered Republican or not? It couldn't know which votes to count and which to toss unless you filled something out at the voting booth to tell it what to do. Logicially, if you were voting in the Republican primary, you considered yourself Republican for at least that moment! Why didn't you check a box to have your vote count?

 

[teresafannin]

I did. I vote in all of our elections, including ones for school board, city council, etc. My dad always told me that if you don't vote, don't bitch about who gets elected. I still remember how excited I was the first time I ever voted, back in 1978.

 

[forgetunome]

I voted...

But I really don't care because I didn't like ANY of the choices. As far as I am concerned all of them give their campaign speeches say what they think THE PEOPLE want to hear and then when they get in it's do whatever the hell they wanted promises all but, thrown out the window.

 

[Merelan]

Isn't that what we all do when we want a job? Hmmm?

 

[Magic Merlin]

Because, here in California we were supossed to be having an open primary.

This was the first time California was supposed to have an open primary in which we could cross party lines and vote for any candidate we wanted.

Well.....what was not stated about our so called open primary until just a little while before it happened, was that........YES.........we could vote for whoever we wanted, but unless we were registered as a Republican or Democrat, our votes would not count for that candidate unless we were registered. So therefore, California's so called 'open' primary was in reality a total farce.

Therefore, since I was no longer a registered Republican, my vote did not count in the official tally. This was a nice little manipulation of the system by both major parties to keep control.

So California did not have an "Open" primary. Thousands of disaffected voters who no longer want to have a party affiliation because of our disgust with the major parties effectively had our votes thrown out.

 

[Cheyenne]

Merlin, I know I'm stubborn, but I still can't picture the mechanics of how that would occur. They wouldn't give you a ballot until you showed your membership card? What?

 

[Juliangel]

I voted!

I vote in every election even if it is just a small local one.

 

[forgetunome]

Isn't that what we all do when we want a job? Hmmm?

Yep...which even though I vote that's why I don't think it's worth a hill of beans. It just gives you the feeling that you had a choice and control over what goes on. Pretty hollow.

 

[Magic Merlin]

Cheyenne, thats exactly my point... Who the hell does understand.

We have an open primary. Theoretically, that means I, as an independent voter (unless they try to register me as an independent) can go into the voting booth and vote for whoever I want in the primary. Well, what most voters of California did not know until a few weeks to a few months before our primary was that if you crossed party lines on your ballot, then that ballot was only for cosmetic purposes. Effectively, my vote did not count.

As I understand it, if I had only voted for Republican candidates on my ballot, never crossing party lines, then I automatically became a registered Republican and my vote would have counted. But, that in effect nullifies the purpose of an open primary.

This has been a big problem in California in the last decase or so, as so many voters are so disgusted with the two major political parties that they no longer register or identify with aither party.

I do, however, see your confusion about what I initialy said. The whole process here stinks, and makes absolutely no sense. Perhaps someone else from California can add to this. I think UncleBill had some comments along this line earlier this year that explained it a little better.

But, effectively Cheyenne, our ballots were immediately nullifed if we crossed party lines. They became nothing more than window dressing.

 

[Cheyenne]

I think I get it now. You could vote for only candidates in one primary- either picking all Republican or all Democrat choices among the multiple choices of each. I've seen that before. But then it clearly says your ballot will be invalid if you cross party lines.

The purpose, I believe, is to let each party really pick its own candidate. If there is a landslide victory expected on one side (Let's say Democratic, for example. Assume everyone knew Gore easily would win it.)the party line restrictions try to prevent all the Democrats from crossover voting in the Republican primary to try to help pick a lesser quality candidate.

I personally think you should have one vote in each race, and you shouldn't be restricted to all Republican or all Democrat candidates.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Magic Merlin]

Thats it Cheyenne. However, it did not state that on the ballot.

But then that is NOT and OPEN primary. That is the typical closed primary of yesteryears.

The California voters passed a resolution (which is binding in Calif. btw) a few years back to have an open primary. The Republican and Democratic parties bitched, moaned, and groaned about it. Saying how unfair that was.

So most everyone here, thought we would truely have an Open Primary. Well, little did we know about the late night and back door manipulation the two parties bosses were attending to.

And yes, I have heard all of the arguements by both major parties about how they should be able to pick their own candidates. Well, thats just BS as far as I'm concerned any more. Neither Republican or Democratic voters picked wither of these two candidates. They were handpicked by the party bosses, well before this years primaries began.

But the bottom line is, why didn't they tell us before the primary that this was not an Open PRimary. Why not just be honest with us? (Oxymoron)...

The voters of California voted in an open primary, but what we didn't know was the secretive manipulation by both parties to only let the public "think" they were getting an open primary.

 

[Cheyenne]

Re: Thats it Cheyenne. However, it did not state that on the ballot.

The California voters passed a resolution (which is binding in Calif. btw) a few years back to have an open primary.

The voters of California voted in an open primary, but what we didn't know was the secretive manipulation by both parties to only let the public "think" they were getting an open primary.

That makes no sense. If the resolution is binding, and an open primary was required, how is it legally possible for there to be any such thing as manipulation by the parties to throw out votes? Wouldn't that be in court quicker than you can shake a stick at them?

 

[Magic Merlin]

I'm not sure what happened there.

I think that after the resolution was passed, the lawyers and politicians found a loophole. Obviously the resolution was not well enough written.

Since our 'Open' primary, more and more people are just shaking their heads with total disgust at the political parties. Obviously Cheyenne, when the open primary resolution was passed what the public expected was just that. An open primary in which voters could go in and vote for the candidate of choice. But as I said, it was only a month or so before the primary here in which the public found out that unless they registered with one of the major parties their vote wouldn't count, except as window dressing. Of couse a few people went out and registered so their vote would count. But at the last minute how many people were actually going to do that. But then isn't that what the two major parties were counting on?

I mean, it just adds to my distrust and disgust with both parties. This primary was not any different with the closed primaries we have had in past years.

 

[CW]

I DID& I WILL CONTINUE TO

vote every time the oppurtunity is offered,,, it may or may not make any great difference in the long run,,, BUT IT SECURES MY RIGHT TO BITCH ABOUT IT ,,, 'nough said

 

[Cheyenne]

Re: I'm not sure what happened there.

But as I said, it was only a month or so before the primary here in which the public found out that unless they registered with one of the major parties their vote wouldn't count, except as window dressing. Of couse a few people went out and registered so their vote would count. But at the last minute how many people were actually going to do that. But then isn't that what the two major parties were counting on?

Back to the same question then. If the public found out a month before the election, then they knew they couldn't cross party lines when voting since it was essentially a closed primary. Why would anyone waste their vote by purposely turning in a ballot that crossed party lines?

The part I still don't understand about what you're saying is that they had to "register" as on official party member so their vote would count. Sounds like you are saying in advance of election day. When you got to the poll, how would the workers there know if you were a registered Republican or not? Or a registered Democrat? Couldn't you just show up at the poll and vote as long as you were a registered voter, period? Or did you have to show a membership card of some kind to vote? Voting in America is always anonymous. There is no way for a party to know from a ballot whether you are a registered Republican or Democrat. Any screening process had to be before that blank ballot was in your hands.

 

[Magic Merlin]

Good question Cheyenne. I do not know the answer to that one at all. My opnion of that is that if your ballot showed you crossed party lines then your vote didn't count. I do know that when you show up at your precinct to vote they check your name and the singin sheet does show your party affiliation or non-affiliation.

I know that when I first moved to California in 1986 and first registered to vote in my first primary in California, I was asked to declare a party affiliation on that registration form. Well, I stated that I was not affiliated with any party. So when I showed up at my first primary in California to vote, I was surprised to find that the ballot I was given (in the primary) did not have any Republican or Democratic candidates listed on it. Only independent and non-affiliated candidates. I was not to happy about that so I took my ballot to the officials at my precinct and asked them about it. They checked my name on the noter registration form and told me that since I was not registered with either major party that my ballot did not include those candidates. Well, to say I was unhappy, was putting it mildly. They didn't seem to understand my confusion. To them it was normal that since I had no party affiliation, my ballot did not include those candidates.

Confusing? Hell, yes. BS? Of course. Its a wonder I keep voting at all. The whole system, at least here in California, seems designed to keep the two major parties in total control.

[Edited by Magic Merlin on 10-20-2000 at 07:08 AM]

 

[Cheyenne]

One more time before I go to work- if the ballots didn't have the names of either Republican or Democrats unless you were registered as a party member, it seems like it would be impossible to screw up and cross party lines to vote. Unless the ballots were already printed assuming there would be an open primary and it was closed after that point. But then, if it was announced a month ahead of time and reinforced at the polls before you voted that your ballot would be automatically invalid if your votes crossed party lines, you still knew what to do to get your vote to count- follow instructions.

Seems the real beef here is with California backing down on the open primary which was previously promised to the voters. But you could still vote if you showed up, declared a party membership, and voted accordingly. I think. Now I REALLY have to go to work- I'm late! LOL

 

[Magic Merlin]

Agreed Cheyenne, I have to get to work also.

When you show up to vote you have to check in. The voter check in form shows your party affiliation. Whether your registered as Democrat, Republican, Green, Independent, no affiliation, etc.

Since I was not registered with a party affiliation, as shown on the voter check in form, I only assume at this point that that is how they know. And since I have to leave for work now, I will try and get back to you later on the specifics of our primary.

If anyone else from California can assist here I would be grateful. Our 'open' primary was something else.

MM

ps. Now go to work Cheyenne, or both of us will be late.

 

[*Eve*]

I voted for Mccain in the primary. Nuff said.

 

[Cheyenne]

Re: Agreed Cheyenne, I have to get to work also.

ps. Now go to work Cheyenne, or both of us will be late.

You're a bad influence on me, Merlin.
I was already late this morning when I was still typing on this thread to you!

What about all you other Californians out there? No help for Merlin on this strange open primary state you live in?

 

[Bigdog]

I'll look into it when I get home to my faster connection. I know there was an open primary proposition that passed but the two major parties threatened to disallow the California delagates if we used the new system. I haven't heard about what Merlin spoke of, I will do some digging and post here.

And yes, I voted. Every election since I was old enough.

 

[Magic Merlin]

California's Open Primary

Californians passed a resolution in 1998 for all future election primaries to be open. That is, the voters could cross party lines during a primary election. The two major political parties challenged the resolution in court and lost. They then took it all the way up to the California State Supreme court where they lost the challenge early this year right before our primary in March.

The Democrats and Republicans challenge to the open primary system was that it would allow members from other parties to come over and select their candidates. The republicans were especially worried about independent and democratic voters crossing party lines here to vote for John McCain. However, our supreme court upheld the resolution and therefore, most Californians thought we would be able to vote for whoever we wanted and have our votes count.

Well, what did not come out until right before our primary was that even though voters could cross party lines, only voters who were registerd within their party would have their votes count in electing that parties candidate.

Cheyenne, I did some research today by talking to the county registrar's office where I live to discuss the situation that I have discussed in this thread. You had raised an excellent question earlier when you wondered how they could determine whether someone's vote could count. Well, this is what I found out. When a voter goes into the precinct to vote the first thing they do is check in and have their name checked against the registered voter registrar. On the voters registrar, is listed each voter's party affiliation, or their non-affiliation. Then when they are handed their ballot, they are handed one that is coded with their affiliation, i.e., repulican, democrat or non-affiliation.

That is how they keep track of who votes for who. True it does not allow them to know who I voted for, but my vote was basically ineffective as since I voted for John McCain, but not being a registered republican, my vote was immediately dismissed as it did not count.

This information is straight from my county registrar. Sounds great doesn't it?