Which is correct....?

[Letoria]

I'd like to offer up a couple of stylistic issues that have plagued me since I started posting stories some time back. I've never received a clear answer which everyone agreed to buy into. What are the preferences here on Literotica for:

OK or Okay? I've had strident defenders of both as editors and I don't know which one to listen to.

Is dialog bracketed by the traditional "..." or the apostrophe '...' ? My editor from the UK says I should use the apostrophe '...' , but my editor from the US says I should use the traditional quote marks, "..." It does appear to me that in Europe, the '...' is the preferred style, but since sites such as Literotica are international in scope, it seems we could/should come up with a standard for all.

Comments?

 

[sr71plt]

Are you writing in the U.S. or the UK? That makes a difference in general writing (although, this being a U.S.-based site, using U.S. style itself, some have found it safer to go with U.S. style in Literotica stories to avoid the uninformed "that's wrong" from U.S. readers--when it may not be wrong; it may be proper British style).

In U.S. style, "OK" is preferred over "Okay" (because it's listed first in Webster's Collegiate 11 and Webster's 3rd International, which are the chosen dictionary authorities of the Chicago Manual of Style and most U.S. publishers). Here either should be OK and not cause a problem with readers as long as you use one consistently. That difference isn't much noticed by readers as long as you are consistent--and often not even then.

The quote style you cite is the difference between U.S. style (always double quotes at the first level and most end punctuation and commas folded inside the close quote) and UK style, single quotes for dialogue and a complex ruling on where the terminable punctuation goes.

You won't be wrong to use the UK style here. You are more likely to get unknowing "it's wrong" comments, though.

 

[Safe_Bet]

I actually prefer this version...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78mrkwgvVRY

 

[JaxRhapsody]

Are you writing in the U.S. or the UK? That makes a difference in general writing (although, this being a U.S.-based site, using U.S. style itself, some have found it safer to go with U.S. style in Literotica stories to avoid the uninformed "that's wrong" from U.S. readers--when it may not be wrong; it may be proper British style).

In U.S. style, "OK" is preferred over "Okay" (because it's listed first in Webster's Collegiate 11 and Webster's 3rd International, which are the chosen dictionary authorities of the Chicago Manual of Style and most U.S. publishers). Here either should be OK and not cause a problem with readers as long as you use one consistently. That difference isn't much noticed by readers as long as you are consistent--and often not even then.

The quote style you cite is the difference between U.S. style (always double quotes at the first level and most end punctuation and commas folded inside the close quote) and UK style, single quotes for dialogue and a complex ruling on where the terminable punctuation goes.

You won't be wrong to use the UK style here. You are more likely to get unknowing "it's wrong" comments, though.

I never use "OK" I think it's stupid and lazy, unless you mean Oklahoma or O. K. Corral

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I use both. One is a glib positive affirmation like, MA I'M GOING NEXT DOOR AND FUCK SUSY ROTTENCROTCH? OK! The other is an extended version of the first, following some deliberation, like...AFTER LUNCH BREAK REPORT BACK HERE SO WE CAN GET NAKED AND FUCK, IS EVERYONE OKAY WITH THAT?

 

[sr71plt]

I never use "OK" I think it's stupid and lazy, unless you mean Oklahoma or O. K. Corral

That's fine. I'm just giving the U.S. publishing industry's choice--and rationale for making that choice. You can certainly do as you wish (until you start trying to publish in the United States. )

(She asked which was correct, not what your personal quirk is. It's befuddling how many writers don't know the difference. Can you cite an authority that backs up your personal quirk?)

I forgot to note in the first response that I don't know what's preferred in the UK style. My Collins dictionary (the UK authority of some publishers) lists O.K. (with the periods) and doesn't list "okay" at all. U.S. style doesn't use the periods, but it looks like that's a UK-style option. I'm not sure how widely Collins is used in the UK, though, and I don't have a copy of Oxford, which might be more authoritative. Maybe someone here with a copy of Oxford will let us know what it says on the subject.

Another thing not to do in the U.S. system is to capitalize it internally in a sentence: "Okay" isn't OK in the U.S. system.

 

[sr71plt]

I use both. One is a glib positive affirmation like, MA I'M GOING NEXT DOOR AND FUCK SUSY ROTTENCROTCH? OK! The other is an extended version of the first, following some deliberation, like...AFTER LUNCH BREAK REPORT BACK HERE SO WE CAN GET NAKED AND FUCK, IS EVERYONE OKAY WITH THAT?

I'm not the least bit surprised that you do.

 

[SamScribble]

There is no ‘correct’. All of the so-called ‘rules’ of English are simply someone’s preferences or prejudices. Each publisher and each publication tends to have its own house style, but that too is a preference rather than a rule.

JaxRhapsody may think the use of OK is stupid and lazy; however, that is simply JaxRhapsody’s personal prejudice. (And certainly not one that I share.) Literotica does not prescribe a house style. You are free to use Okay or OK and single or double quotes as you see fit – although, in the interests of clarity, it is probably a good idea to be consistent in you choice.

 

[sr71plt]

There is no ‘correct’. All of the so-called ‘rules’ of English are simply someone’s preferences or prejudices. Each publisher and each publication tends to have its own house style, but that too is a preference rather than a rule.

Not so much when you actually get into real publishing, Sam. Nearly every U.S. mainstream publisher of books in the humanities (all fiction, most nonfiction) uses the Chicago Manual of Style and the dictionary authorities I cited, with very, very few publishing house contrary rules (and most of these concern numbers, with a large number of houses preferring the APA number system).

I really don't know why in the hell writers don't just go with the help given them and spend their time on creative writing rather than following their own presentation quirks. When you get to publishers, they don't care half as much what the writer prefers doing to what their paying readers prefer reading--in standardized form.

It just isn't true that there's no "correct" way of rendering most everything in the publishing industry. The alternative is chaos (and some "it's all about me" writers who are setting themselves up for a real wham of reality up side the head. It isn't all about the writer in the real publishing world).

 

[SamScribble]

Not so much when you actually get into real publishing, Sam. Nearly every U.S. mainstream publisher of books in the humanities (all fiction, most nonfiction) use the Chicago Manual of Style and the dictionary authorities I cited, with very, very few publishing house contrary rules (and most of these concern numbers, with a large number of houses preferring the APA number system).

Fair point. Perhaps I should have said that 'there is no universal correct'. Pretty much everything I have ever published has been with UK houses ) or Commonwealth houses following the UK model). But even here there is a fair bit of variation in house styles.

 

[NoJo]

I must say this is a very "interesting" thread.

 

[sr71plt]

I think it's a disservice to give the impression to developing writers that it's willy-nilly anything goes in writing style. When working in publishing houses, I've encountered a whole lot of authors who should have had this beaten out them before they got to professional publishing--and some of these had their books dropped because they just couldn't "get" that style was not their privilege to any great degree. Even here on Literotica, works are being rejected for not following a presentation style.

 

[Letoria]

I'm not the least bit surprised that you do.

Thanks SR. I'm writing in the US. I don't know what the audience demographics are for Literotica, but on the other sites I post on, there is a very significant audience in the UK. I'd say off the top of my head that at least half the comments I receive originate in the UK, so I feel a need to at least try to acknowledge those standards. My primary editor is also a professional editor for a UK periodical, so I trust his judgement vis a vis British rules of style, but as he reminds me, "It's your audience you're writing for, not me." I guess the key here is consistency.

OK just gives me fits. My natural inclination is to use "OK" without the periods. My first editor, from the US, was adamant that "okay" was preferred. Not knowing any better, I did as he suggested and went back to change the little SOBs. Sadly, I tried to do it using "Find and Replace". Of course that was a disaster, serving only to reduce me to a puddle of tears. Now I go with "OK", leaving "okay" to rot in its own little corner of Hell (Tongue-in-cheek, people!)

In the end, I'm not submitting my stories for publication, nor am I ever going to be professionally published. Nevertheless, these things do matter to me. I don't want to look like an idiot; I'd like to be taken somewhat seriously, so I'm trying to get a good handle on what is seen as "best practice", and what isn't.

Thanks for the input, and I'll continue to read follow-ups.

 

[fifty5]

That's fine. I'm just giving the U.S. publishing industry's choice--and rationale for making that choice. You can certainly do as you wish (until you start trying to publish in the United States. )

(She asked which was correct, not what your personal quirk is. It's befuddling how many writers don't know the difference. Can you cite an authority that backs up your personal quirk?)

I forgot to note in the first response that I don't know what's preferred in the UK style. My Collins dictionary (the UK authority of some publishers) lists O.K. (with the periods) and doesn't list "okay" at all. U.S. style doesn't use the periods, but it looks like that's a UK-style option. I'm not sure how widely Collins is used in the UK, though, and I don't have a copy of Oxford, which might be more authoritative. Maybe someone here with a copy of Oxford will let us know what it says on the subject.

Another thing not to do in the U.S. system is to capitalize it internally in a sentence: "Okay" isn't OK in the U.S. system.

My Concise Oxford lists "okay : see OK" and "OK, okay ..."

My own experience is that OK is OK, but okay looks weird (but comprehensible).

 

[lovecraft68]

Not so much when you actually get into real publishing, Sam. Nearly every U.S. mainstream publisher of books in the humanities (all fiction, most nonfiction) uses the Chicago Manual of Style and the dictionary authorities I cited, with very, very few publishing house contrary rules (and most of these concern numbers, with a large number of houses preferring the APA number system).

I really don't know why in the hell writers don't just go with the help given them and spend their time on creative writing rather than following their own presentation quirks. When you get to publishers, they don't care half as much what the writer prefers doing to what their paying readers prefer reading--in standardized form.

It just isn't true that there's no "correct" way of rendering most everything in the publishing industry. The alternative is chaos (and some "it's all about me" writers who are setting themselves up for a real wham of reality up side the head. It isn't all about the writer in the real publishing world).

All I'm going to say is that 50 Shades of Grey Flies in the face of everything you just said.

Give it a read, when your eyes are done bleeding you'll see that if an editor touched that book he did it with his eyes closed.

The fact it was such an enormous success may just start to change the "standards" of the industry as you know it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

In one of the Flashman books, George MacDonald Fraser had an American woman say it all the time-- he spelled it "Oh-kay!" (dash and exclamation point, every time.)

Presumably there was historic precedent for that.

 

[lovecraft68]

My Concise Oxford lists "okay : see OK" and "OK, okay ..."

My own experience is that OK is OK, but okay looks weird (but comprehensible).

My issue with that is "Ok" and "Okay" sound the same when spoken. I always prefer to go with the word "okay" just like I wrote "It was Eleven O' clock" not it was 11.

 

[lovecraft68]

In one of the Flashman books, George MacDonald Fraser had an American woman say it all the time-- he spelled it "Oh-kay!" (dash and exclamation point, every time.)

Presumably there was historic precedent for that.

If I read that I would assume it was how that character spoke, you know, like when someone is nagging you and you give an exaggerated "Oh-kay oh-kay already!"

 

[Safe_Bet]

In one of the Flashman books, George MacDonald Fraser had an American woman say it all the time-- he spelled it "Oh-kay!" (dash and exclamation point, every time.)

Presumably there was historic precedent for that.

And the preeminent expert on the subject word, Buckwheat, prefers "O-Tay"!

 

[sr71plt]

My Concise Oxford lists "okay : see OK" and "OK, okay ..."

My own experience is that OK is OK, but okay looks weird (but comprehensible).

Thanks. When you turn to "OK" in the Oxford, does it say "see okay"?

If so, it's saying they are interchangeable. If not, it's saying "OK" is primary. (because "okay" referred to "OK" and "OK" did not refer to "okay") It's how dictionaries are written to tell writers/editors what is preferred.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If I read that I would assume it was how that character spoke, you know, like when someone is nagging you and you give an exaggerated "Oh-kay oh-kay already!"

She usually was saying it to herself...

but you're right-- it did express Flashman's unfamiliarity with the expression. Hmm...

Regarding dialogue marks, use whichever way you like-- just keep it consistent in the work.

Peter Carey wrote his masterpiece True History of the Kelly Gang without any quotation marks or indicators of dialogue at all, only a new line-- nor any commas either. It takes a mere moment to get used to the style.

 

[Letoria]

My issue with that is "Ok" and "Okay" sound the same when spoken. I always prefer to go with the word "okay" just like I wrote "It was Eleven O' clock" not it was 11.

And now you're delving into another personal can of worms! Is it 5 or five? 14 or fourteen? Is it 11 o'clock or eleven o'clock? Or is it 11 AM or Eleven AM. "John turned around and looked at the clock. It was eleven AM." OR "John turned around and looked at the clock. It was eleven o'clock in the morning," (Presuming of course there is no situational context to suggest whether it's before noon or after noon) ad nauseum.

Well, one good thing. I don't feel so ignorant now. I can see I'm hardly the only one fighting these two monstrosities. The quote issue isn't so monstrous, but OK is very unkind.

 

[sr71plt]

And now you're delving into another personal can of worms! Is it 5 or five? 14 or fourteen? Is it 11 o'clock or eleven o'clock? Or is it 11 AM or Eleven AM. "John turned around and looked at the clock. It was eleven AM." OR "John turned around and looked at the clock. It was eleven o'clock in the morning," (Presuming of course there is no situational context to suggest whether it's before noon or after noon) ad nauseum.

Well, one good thing. I don't feel so ignorant now. I can see I'm hardly the only one fighting these two monstrosities. The quote issue isn't so monstrous, but OK is very unkind.

With numbers, it depends. But with most of what you would encounter, they are written out up to 100 and then rendered in Arabic numbers. There are quite a few exceptions, though, including percentages and your question on time.

If you follow CMS on time (which many don't. Many follow the APA [scientific] style, which renders time as given in the following for exact time), times of day in even, half, and quarter hours are written out with "o'clock" behind them (but midnight and noon, not twelve o'clock). Standard rendering of exact time is 11:38 a.m. and 3:14 p.m. The "a.m./p.m." changed with the most recent edition of the Chicago Manual of Style. Before that, the CMS preferred no periods and the am/pm being in small caps. The industry is trying to get rid of small caps, though (including in AD/BCE/BC).

See CMS, 6.1-2 for the basic discussion on numbers (with chapter 9 giving all of the variations) and 9.38-40 on rendering of time.

I use the APA style myself (e.g., 11:30 a.m., 2:00 p.m.).

I presume some others posting here use Swahili smoke signals as taught to them by their Aunt Gertrude.

 

[Letoria]

I presume some others posting here use Swahili smoke signals as taught to them by their Aunt Gertrude.

LOL Umm, no comment.

Forgive my ignorance, but where can I find a copy of the CMS? I know what it is, but I don't have a copy or access to it.

 

[sr71plt]

LOL Umm, no comment.

Forgive my ignorance, but where can I find a copy of the CMS? I know what it is, but I don't have a copy or access to it.

The bookstore. Amazon.com (and it's not cheap):

http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Manua...51815&sr=1-1&keywords=chicago+manual+of+style