Where the Nice Guys are...

[Elengil]

Note: Found this on OkCupid. Thought this would be a nice bit to share with other people as it is VERY deep and meaningful. (Original author was Edymnion)

If you do OkCupid and like this, feel free to comment on it.

Where the Nice Guys Are. | Dec 19 - 8:46pm

Okay, I would like to say that I would like to apologize to anyone this might offend, but really, I don't. If you are offended by this, then odds are, you are one of the people I'm talking about. If this upsets you, then you should take it personally. I don't mean that you should think I'm talking directly to you, but that you should take a good hard look at yourself, and see how much of it really does apply to you.

That said:

All of you girls that claim you just want a "nice guy", I want you to stop and think for a moment. What exactly is a "nice guy"? I'll give you my definition. A nice guy is someone that respects you as a person, with a mind and feelings, not as a walking pair of breasts. A nice guy is someone that works all day, then comes home early to make a nice dinner for when you get home, and is genuinely interested in if you had a good day or not. He's someone that wants you to be happy above all else, even if that means he has to suffer in the process.

So, where are these nice guys? Odds are, you've already met one, and you killed him. Oh, he may still be walking around, and you probably weren't fully responsible for it, but you played your part.

I'd like for you to stop and think back. Maybe to high school, maybe to college, but think back to when you had a lot of friends and people around you. Did you have that one male friend that was always there when you just needed somebody to hang out with? When your jerk boyfriend at the time did something terrible, and you were a crying wreck over it (maybe he was cheating on you, or he dumped you, or whatever else), did you have that one male friend you could go cry to, that never asked anything in return, that was "like a brother"? Odds are, somebody joked that he must have had a crush on you, but you kept insisting that you were "just friends"?

He was there giving you all of the emotional support you needed, and you never gave him anything in return, but he still stuck by you. Maybe he made a few clumsy passes at you, maybe you noticed, maybe you didn't. Maybe he asked if you were hungry and wanted something to eat after an event, and you came up with some stupid excuse not to go. Maybe he was talking about a movie that you hadn't seen yet, and he offered to take you to see it, and you turned him down. He said it was okay, or just didn't say anything at all.

Yeah, guess what, he was a nice guy, and he probably did like you. Thing is, he was a nice guy. He didn't want you to be uncomfortable, he didn't want to force himself on you, he didn't want to say how great he was. But he was there for you when you needed him, and you dismissed him. He almost assuredly tried to find out if there was any hope that you would ever return his feelings, and even when he finally figured out that it was a lost cause, he still hung around, because if you didn't want him, he could still be your friend, and at least try to make you happy that way.

But, you hung out with your other friends more, so he drew back farther and farther to give you the space you wanted, until he realized there was no place for him in your life, and he left.

He was the nice guy you say you want, and you drove him away. But, its not always that obvious, even in retrospect, who was a nice guy. Odds are, most of the people you rejected were nice guys. They were probably nervous, or shy, and probably spent a week working up the nerve to ask you out. And instead of even giving them a chance, you shot them down on the spot. Maybe they were too chubby, or too scrawny, too geeky, or not popular enough. Maybe they didn't have enough money, or any other number of reasons. Regardless, you told them to get lost, and being the nice guys they were, they listened. They took the hint. They weren't jerks, they weren't assholes, and they respected your decision, even if it hurt. You didn't want them, and they weren't going to try to make you change your mind, so you never saw them again.

And what happened to those nice guys?
A lot of them turned into what you wanted, or at least what you were projecting that you wanted. They turned into the same kind of assholes you have been dating. They stopped caring what you thought, and treated you like a piece of meat. And sadly, you probably went out with one of these ex-nice guys just for that reason. Maybe the change was intentional, maybe one day the nice guy sat down and said to himself "Screw this, if thats what they want, then thats what I'll be." Maybe it wasn't intentional. Maybe they just gave up on caring, and when they did find a relationship, they found that they could do to you what you had done to them, put them down, call them trash, act better than them. And now they treat you like trash, belittle you, and act like you don't matter. Well, that is what you taught them to do, isn't it?

Some of the nice guys got lucky though, they found a nice girl that didn't treat them badly, that actually saw the heart of gold and reciprocated. Now they're happily married, and will be one of those old couples they put on the news because they've been married for 50 years.

So, when you ask where all the nice guys are, stop and think. What part did you play in making them so hard to find? Did you use and abuse your nice guy, or did you add yet another emotional injury by rejecting them out of hand until they were too gunshy to really open up to someone anymore?

Again, guess what? You deserve to be treated the way you treat other people. It doesn't always happen, because of how many nice guys get walked on, but the golden rule applies. If you spent years dumping on the nice guy, they're not going to be there for you when you realize "Oh, I don't really want that bad boy that treats me like dirt!" Since thats how you treated the nice guys in your life, odds are, thats how you deserve to be treated now. You made your bed, now lie in it.

For those of you reading this that are going "Oh crap, he's right, thats exactly what I've been doing to !", please realize that its not too late. The great thing about nice guys is that they are willing to forgive and forget. Realize that any guy that is willing to be there for you, and put up with you in your bad moods, and be a shoulder to cry on, and all the rest of it almost always wishes you and him could be more than just friends, but wants you to realize that too. Congratulations, now you realize it. Give him a chance, thats all he wants. If nothing else, flat out ask him how he feels about you. He'll probably deny any feelings he has for you at first, because he's been having to hide them for so long its become almost second nature. If you really want a nice guy though, find out for sure. You probably already have one in your life right now, that cares for you deeply, and you just aren't seeing it.

So, remember, treat people the way you want them to treat you. If you don't want guys to think you're nothing but a walking sex toy, then don't treat them like a walking bank account. If you want someone to look past your flaws and get to know the real you, then you have to be willing to look past their's first.

Nice guys are willing to wait, but they won't wait forever. Eventually they'll realize that you just don't feel for them the way they feel for you, and they'll step aside for someone else. Thats what they do, they sacrifice what they want in order for you to be happy. And if they don't find somebody that realizes how great it is to be with a nice guy, they will make the biggest sacrifice of all to make you happy. They'll stop being a nice guy. And once they do, its almost impossible to get that nice guy back.

Nice guys are all around you. They just don't go around beating our chests and saying how great they are, because they're nice guys. They don't troll bars looking for sex, they aren't interested in being or having a "trophy" for a partner. They want somebody that will love them as much as they will love you, that will treat them with the same reverence and respect they would treat you with.

When you ask where all the nice guys are, look at the bottom of your shoe, and see just how many you've stepped on. Thats where the nice guys are.

 

[Monazwx]

All I can say is, "WOW".

I loved this part, "If you don't want guys to think you're nothing but a walking sex toy, then don't treat them like a walking bank account."

The same applies for the nice girls, (waiting on bad boys to change).

 

[PertPerth]

Yep, I know a few girls like that. But I'd also like to defend the nice girls - we do exist.
My boy has been hurt by one of those girls. I don't mind that he's a little "damaged". We all are.

 

[Eilan]

Meh. Forget it.

 

[Cathleen]

I'd rather use nice person, it's a more appropriate word, IMHO. I'm a nice woman and have had some of the experieces mentioned, I've been 'like a sister', 'just a friend' and frankly I value some of those men still.

Still an interesting essay.

 

[smile_n_laugh]

Finally someone taking up cudgels for guys!

 

[RUbensBeautY]

Lots of truth in that one and I have to agree. Nice girls or nice guys, the way some people treat them without realizing it ... their loss it should be, really.

I have always been a nice girl, the shoulder to cry and complain on for male and female friends alike. The 'emotional trashcan' as my family put it at times and I honestly didn't mind. I like to be needed, to feel useful, to comfort and share in another person's sorrow and joy. But if I am perfectly honest I have to admit, I have yet to meet the kind of special friend to reciprocate my feelings or even the support when times turn though on my end.

My family has encouraged me lately to let go of such friendships - one or two in particular - and look for new people to share myself and my time with, nice people. I guess the time has come to heed that advice.

Thank you for sharing this article, Elengil. Quite thought provoking.

 

[south_florida_bicur]

wow

great post

 

[alaskabibear]

In the end, I think "nice people" get the last laugh- or better, earn a better reward. Because at the end of the day "nice people" can look at themselves and feel good about who they are and what they stand for as human beings. I can only speculate how some people end up in the end as they consider the damage they have done to others throughout their selfish lives- that is something I don't want to ever have to face.

The bottom line though; Only those who love can be hurt by love - but, they are also the only ones who can truly know love.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I understand that nice people often get stepped on because they lack confidence and don't push for what they want but honestly? This OP just screams 'victim' to me.

'Nice guys' can blame the evils of womankind for all their problems if they want to but surely they are responsible for their own lives and personalities? I am not personally attracted to greasy, spotty, fat, nerdy bottomless pits of needy clinginess who blame me for not fancying them and by extension, for everything that's wrong in their lives.

The first 'nice guy' I went out with I liked because of his personality and although he had low self esteem I thought that a happy relationship would improve it. Nope. I got bleated at every day. 'I don't deserve you. I don't know why you date me. You must fancy other guys. You must be seeing other guys because you enjoy sex and you don't look like the back of a bus. Where have you been? where are you going?' It was endless. I bent over backwards to be open and upfront about everything I did to reassure him. Did it? Nope. 'You must be hiding something. Where are you really going?' There was no end to it and this man's emotional problems were not my fault. I got punished everyday for every callous cow who had dated him a few times and then dumped him because rock bottom self esteem is demoralizing and depressing to witness day in, day out.

People are born with different attributes but in the end, you make your own destiny. Dressing like a goth, washing your hair only weekly and depressing the fuck out of everyone within radius will not get you laid. Being 'friends' with a girl and following her around like a puppy will not earn you respect.

Blaming womankind because you behave as though you are totally undeserving of love and self-fulfil this mantra in every relationship you get into by wearing out her sympathy muscle is not the path to a happy life.

Nice guys finish last because that's exactly where they expect to finish. That is not the fault of the women they date. It is not even the fault of the women who turn them down and the alpha guys who tease and bully them. It is their own fault because they do nothing to change the pattern. They get bitter and resentful and go into each subsequent relationship with even less optimism and hope.

Get some therapy. Go on a diet. Buy some clothes that aren't black. But don't blame women.

 

[mrklin]

That essay hit pretty close to home. As far back as junior high school, I was always the 'nice guy' that the girls liked, but would never date. I heard a female friend actually say that to another female friend once when I was about 16 years old. "Oh ****'s a great guy, but I could never date him. That would be weird." Well, thanks a flippin' bunch - love you too, Sweets…

Oh sure, I went out with my female friends. There were plenty of movies, dinners, dances - you name it. The atmosphere, however, quickly turned into one reminiscent of going out with a sibling. On more than one occasion, our "date" turned into a way for her to meet guys. That's great for the ego. "I know I came here with you, but… This is Kevin, and he's offered to drive me home…"

I was the big/little brother, depending on the girl. I was the listener, the coach, the cheerleader, and the absorber of all things good or bad, and when a girl I liked found a new boyfriend, I was expected to be happy for her. I was a shoulder to cry on, a buddy to hang with, and a verbal scratching post when the claws came out at times - but I was nothing more. It's odd, but I ran across a few girls/women that seemed to deny to themselves that it was even possible that I could actually have any feelings of my own, and that they were therefore the only ones with anything important to say. Well, no big deal - we meet self-centered people of both genders every day. Those people didn't remain my friends for long.

It was only when my family moved to another state and I started making new friends did that 'nice guy you can talk to but never date' reputation go away. I quit being so friendly, so easy to talk to, and so willing to take the back seat to other people's feelings when I had some of my own. I started putting my thoughts and feelings first, and I went out on a lot more dates.

I think that insecurity in a guy is something else entirely. I tend to believe that self-esteem problems are primarily self-induced. Having said that, however, I think one should look at where some of that insecurity might come from. When you're treated like a personal shrink, free advisor, and occasional bodyguard for several years, but there's absolutely no interest in taking the relationship any further, a guy can start to doubt himself. Don't get me wrong - if he needs a shrink, he should get one. Overall, however, I don't think a 'nice guy' is an insecure guy. I think that a lot of insecure guys are, or were, nice guys.

I didn't see that essay screaming 'victim' at all, only relaying a truth that might be one that's painful for some to hear. We don't like to hear criticism that could possibly be directed toward us - especially if it's true, and we don't see it. The password is 'denial.' I also don't think the author is bemoaning the evils of womanhood. It's just my opinion, but it appears that no matter what the author says, his essay has a specific "target," for lack of a better word. The essay is a message to a single person, and he's hoping she reads it. That's just my opinion, and I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Still to this day I find myself being called 'a nice guy,' but not one that anyone could get involved with. It doesn't matter to me now - I've been happily married to the most darling woman of my dreams for almost 20 years. Women still find me to be an easy guy to talk to, one that they can bare their souls to, and they know that secrets stay with me. My wife jokingly refers to me as "father confessor," and that's fine. I'm not trying to get into anyone's pants, so it isn't a problem.

Still, it's an interesting topic for discussion…

 

[alaskabibear]

mrklin,

I think the key words in your post are that you have been married to a wonderful (nice) woman for over 20 years. I consider myself a nice guy (others may disagree?) and I have been married to a wonderful (nice) woman for over 30 years. The point being, the not "so nice people" tend to eventually find each other and then they get to live a life "not so nice" (that is if they even make it that far and don't go through multiple divorces). We each get to choose how we shall live our life - and we each get to reap the rewards or consequences of our choices. Personally I choose "nice" and simply avoid those "not so nice" as being a waste of time - I suggest all other "nice boys and girls" to do the same.

 

[south_florida_bicur]

such bullshit its not even funny.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I referred to nobody specifically. I have nothing further to add to this collective bout of misogyny. I called BS, now I'm out.

 

[silverwhisper]

calling this misogynistic is to my way of thinking foolish.

ed

 

[mrklin]

mrklin,

I think the key words in your post are that you have been married to a wonderful (nice) woman for over 20 years. I consider myself a nice guy (others may disagree?) and I have been married to a wonderful (nice) woman for over 30 years. The point being, the not "so nice people" tend to eventually find each other and then they get to live a life "not so nice" (that is if they even make it that far and don't go through multiple divorces). We each get to choose how we shall live our life - and we each get to reap the rewards or consequences of our choices. Personally I choose "nice" and simply avoid those "not so nice" as being a waste of time - I suggest all other "nice boys and girls" to do the same.

I think what you say has some merit, and I'll agree with a lot of it, but I don't see things in such an "either/or" manner. I tend to think that the 'nice' and 'not nice' are closer to the extremes at either end of the spectrum - not 'doormat' and 'sociopath,' but you get my drift. Somewhere in the middle lies the majority of people.

I met and married my wife years after I had decided to be not as much of a 'nice guy' as I had been in the past. Knowing my wife as well as I do, and after having this discussion with her a couple of times over the years, I know that if I had been such a 'nice guy' when we met, she probably (not certainly, but probably) would have been another on the list of women I'd known but never dated.

True, we do choose how we live our lives. Frustration is what sets in, however, when we see that way of living as being who we are, while nobody seems to care about us. I never decided to be "not nice," Lord knows the world is full of so-called "bad boys," and yes I know that some women are attracted to them. That's not my style, though. I just backed off a bit, and decided that I should take a closer look at my own feelings before automatically putting the feelings of others first. In that way, I did think 'either/or,' in that it was their feelings or mine. I learned to consider both.

I guess it's a 'nice' (there's that word again) way of saying that I was tired of doing all the giving, while receiving little to nothing in return. I reevaluated the way I made friendships and relationships, and overall I've been happier for it.

 

[alaskabibear]

I think what you say has some merit, and I'll agree with a lot of it, but I don't see things in such an "either/or" manner. I tend to think that the 'nice' and 'not nice' are closer to the extremes at either end of the spectrum - not 'doormat' and 'sociopath,' but you get my drift. Somewhere in the middle lies the majority of people.

I met and married my wife years after I had decided to be not as much of a 'nice guy' as I had been in the past. Knowing my wife as well as I do, and after having this discussion with her a couple of times over the years, I know that if I had been such a 'nice guy' when we met, she probably (not certainly, but probably) would have been another on the list of women I'd known but never dated.

True, we do choose how we live our lives. Frustration is what sets in, however, when we see that way of living as being who we are, while nobody seems to care about us. I never decided to be "not nice," Lord knows the world is full of so-called "bad boys," and yes I know that some women are attracted to them. That's not my style, though. I just backed off a bit, and decided that I should take a closer look at my own feelings before automatically putting the feelings of others first. In that way, I did think 'either/or,' in that it was their feelings or mine. I learned to consider both.

I guess it's a 'nice' (there's that word again) way of saying that I was tired of doing all the giving, while receiving little to nothing in return. I reevaluated the way I made friendships and relationships, and overall I've been happier for it.

I think we are basically saying the same thing. I agree that it's not so clear cut as to who is "naughty" and who is "nice" (sorry, couldn't resist). And, it seems that you eventually matured into a man who realizes that one cannot "save" everyone (it seems we all eventually come to that realization). I think that is what I was trying to say about just avoiding those kind of people that are a hopeless drag on our energy. The main thing though (IMHO) is that we should not conform to the "naughty" side - we should live our lives and do no harm to another as much as possible so that we have a clear conscience as to how we have lived our lives. (and I suspect that you are still a nice guy - it's hard to change the fabric of one's basic make-up- as you said, you just consider how and when you will spend that coin)

 

[rosco rathbone]

How "nice" can someone that full of whiney bitterness be???

 

[VelvetDarkness]

calling this misogynistic is to my way of thinking foolish.

ed

Possibly but I also think it's a bit dumb to play the 'I wish I had a hot girlfriend, but I don't cause YOU'RE ALL SHALLOW FUCKING BITCHES!' card.

The OP's negative experiences have prejudiced him against women in general. That's a shame, but I'm not about to feel guilty about or apologise for his bad experiences with others.

I (like many women) happen to be a fucking fantastic, loyal and faithful girlfriend. Just not his.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

How "nice" can someone that full of whiney bitterness be???

Thankyou. *applauds*

 

[silverwhisper]

velvet, i'll confess that i have a certain sympathy for the writer. i once was that guy. and then i realized that if i want something, i have to pursue it, whether that be a job or a relationship, rather than meekly hoping the vicissitudes of fate will deliver it to me.

having said that: i think there's still a certain truth to his point that very often, women say they want someone who treats them with respect but don't actually ever date such men.

we can probably go back and forth for days as to why, but i trust you aren't seriously going to suggest that isn't the case?

ed

 

[kimbernee]

There's a couple of things. First of all, I "say" I want dark-haired guys but not every guy I date is dark-haired. You meet someone and are attracted in some ways but probably not all ways and then you get attached and you overlook the ways in which the guy isn't perfect. Most women would prefer to be treated well but to some of them, it isn't a high enough priority. More important is looks, money, talent, apparent coolness, whatever. So taking some bland-looking, bland-acting guy and having him be a bastard isn't going to get him more dates. If you're a bland-looking, bland-acting "nice" guy, you're better off fixing the bland parts than the nice part.

That's the other thing. A lot of times the word nice is used because there's not much else you can say. My Grandma is nice but I'm not dating her. Nice is a minimum requirement, not a recommendation. I'm sure there have been plenty of devoted puppy dogs in my life but I'm not sorry I didn't date any of them. The guys I date treat me well and have other talents besides.

 

[EjAcKuLaToR]

I too am a nice guy. I've been the guy mentioned in the essay for years of my life. I'm going to surprise a few by saying this, but I have to admit that in the end, it's not the nice guys who win (necessarily). See in this world and in nature, it's survival of the fittest.

There's nothing wrong with survival of the fittest. It's a reality of life. Even nice guys have to understand that if they want to get anything out of life. That's not to say that a nice guy has to be a prick or treat women badly, not at all.

It's just to say that nature is all about survival of the fittest, and just being a nice guy doesn't get you there. Nice guys, stop being offended by getting your ass stomped by some girl. Remain a nice guy, but join in life and realize that this game does have winners and losers. Tweak your game a bit and posture yourself to be strong and a winner and you can still be a nice guy.

I treat women like GOLD. I treat my wife like she's the best thing in the world. BUT I survived. I competed for my lady. I got in there and was a nice guy who couldn't be run down by an idiot. I wasn't a pushover.

Survival of the fittest...

 

[EjAcKuLaToR]

One other point that's worth making. A guy has to be a "deal closer".

You gotta ask her for her lovin'. There's a 99% chance that if you don't pursue it and ask for it, she's not going to just wake up one day and throw it out to you. Remember the survival of the fittest comments I made above?

ASK FOR IT! WORK FOR IT! Ask expecting to get it ("it" can be a date, sex, marriage, whatever).
If you get rejected, don't count it as because you were a "nice guy", count it because you didn't close the deal.

There are 100 females who would date you if you'd ask. If you don't ask, then they won't date you. Bring your deal to the table, nice guys and then close the deal.

Survival of the fittest means closing the deal. You gotta ask the girl for whatever it is you want in order to have any hope of getting it. Very few women just go nuts for a guy who doesn't have the balls to close the deal.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

velvet, i'll confess that i have a certain sympathy for the writer. i once was that guy. and then i realized that if i want something, i have to pursue it, whether that be a job or a relationship, rather than meekly hoping the vicissitudes of fate will deliver it to me.

Very true. I'm sorry to hear that you had bad experiences in the past. I do think this is a self esteem issue but the key to changing your relationship patterns is to understand that a large part of the problem is within your power to change.

having said that: i think there's still a certain truth to his point that very often, women say they want someone who treats them with respect but don't actually ever date such men.

we can probably go back and forth for days as to why, but i trust you aren't seriously going to suggest that isn't the case?

ed

No I'm not going to argue. I just think that women like that are shallow and manipulative. In the same way that some women decide that all men are bastards, this OP is writing to women on this forum, tarring them with the same brush and then asking them to accept responsibility for this phenomenon.

I found parts of the post offensive because he suggests that women here who are single must have stomped all over a 'nice guy' and should now be slitting their wrists in remorse. It's bilious and mean spirited and yet he expects sympathy and vindication, for us women to realise what bitches we really are.

Maybe I have over-reacted a little but I just hate people playing the 'woe is me' victim card. If you spend all your time with a girl who has no interest in you romantically (as per his example) it's no use being heartbroken when nothing comes of it and it's even less use to blame the girl concerned. It's completely non-constructive and allows the 'nice guy' concerned to delude himself that his life is not his fault.

Yes, some women are bitches but just as many men (if not more) are asshats. That's life. You've got to fine tune your BS meter and get on with it.

Plus, I don't see the OP defending what he posted. It's mean spirited vitriol and I think he knows that.