Where does BDSM fall in the PC spectrum?

[Marquis]

The question I'm asking here is sort of twofold.

What does the casual vanilla observer think of BDSM, and how far are you willing to go to protect yourself from that image?


Many a Saturday night I have walked through my building's lobby in full latex. I find that people tend to look away and act as if nothing is unusual, which kind of bothers me more than if they had pointed and stared.

On the facebook, an online networking community for college (I think high school too, now) students, I did a search to find I am the only one, of thousands, who has BDSM listed as an interest.

I know it's only a matter of time before some snooping law student finds Lit, as I occasionally check it at school. I try to be private about it, but I guess that only makes them more interested.

I consider myself very open about who I am and what I'm about, in all ways. I have plenty of skeletons, I just keep them in the living room. I've often been criticised for this, but I've been criticised for a lot my entire life. I've found I'd rather just have people deal with me for who I am, immediately, than have to explain myself once I am secure in a friendship that I don't need or want.

This has given me a lot of opportunity. I find that people open up to me easier, and trust me more. Through being open, I've been burned many times, but I also think I've gotten to REALLY know a lot of people who never would've said something if I didn't say it first.

I pride myself on being a young Dominant who is serious about the lifestyle. I think I am regarded with respect by those I come across in my local society. I am being trained by a Dom/sensual artist who is largely regarded as the most talented in the state. I threw a munch for local BDSMers in their 20's recently because I thought we weren't offered a comfortable environment to talk by our local society. I've been asked to keep this ongoing, and I've also been asked to lead a similar project by our local society. I've even been asked to introduce a beautiful young lady into BDSM by her mother, who is apparently also a sub.

Peculiarity aside, I don't say these things to brag.

OK, I don't say these things just to brag. The truth is, I am honored to be so active in my community, because BDSM is something I really believe in, and something which brings me a lot of fulfillment. People often make jokes about me being the "BDSM lawyer" and sometimes I wonder if I will have a choice.

I guess my ship has already sailed for the most part, but I often wonder if I should be taking greater precautions to conceal my lifestyle. People often tell me I should conceal my Bipolar disorder, but I always respond by saying I refuse to be embarrassed by something I have no choice in. If people were more open about their disorders, perhaps it wouldn't take others so long to get help.

Similarly, I kinda want to be the BDSM guy. I want curious people to come up to me and ask me the questions we so often get from newbs on this site. I just wonder what it will cost me.

I really have no concept of what the average person thinks of BDSM, if they do at all.

On a side note, this will be my last post for a while. I have a mid-term in a few weeks and word on the street is that a group of Jews in the back have been pulling double study shifts in an attempt to take me down. Reliable sources say they are working straight through the Sabbath. In any case, it's time to buckle down and I'm afraid Lit is just far too entertaining.

Be well, my children, and respect Catalina as you would me or there will be severe spankings for all of you when I return.

 

[chris9]

First, good luck on your mid-terms.
Second, are you trying to give Catalina a hard time? You know she's topping, so she could just do something drastic to you. You're offering spanking to lots of masochists for misbehaviour! That's an invitation!Now I will be looking for Catalina in order to cause some trouble.

I don't know what the average person thinks about BDSM. It's probably different if we're talking conservative prude or open for all.
It's couragious of you to not hide any parts of you that are not the norm, maybe considered bad by society. When you say you don't hide you bi-polar disorder (I'm glad you didn't, I hadn't even heard about it before) and that you wished that more people wouldn't hide their disorders, it's very consequent of you to face the results. Because since most people do hide those, they are seen as a major disadvantage.
You might also face some draw-backs when it becomes too well-known that you're into BDSM once you are a lawyer. Some clients might not trust you, the judge might be against you, the jury prejudiced.
Ok, I feel like I'm not making much sense. I'll go to sleep, and since you aren't around for a while anyway, I will just come back and edit when I'm thinking more clearly.

 

[brioche]

The question I'm asking here is sort of twofold.

What does the casual vanilla observer think of BDSM, and how far are you willing to go to protect yourself from that image?


I guess my ship has already sailed for the most part, but I often wonder if I should be taking greater precautions to conceal my lifestyle. People often tell me I should conceal my Bipolar disorder, but I always respond by saying I refuse to be embarrassed by something I have no choice in. If people were more open about their disorders, perhaps it wouldn't take others so long to get help.

Well, i personally don't want anyone to know about my interests, not because i am a private person (though i kind of am), but because of my profession. People are so nervous about who they leave their children with. Yes, it is a very important job to take youngsters and teach them how to behave, but any parent who thinks a teacher can't teach things differently from they way they are outside of school needs to take a good, hard look at themself. (Is that a word?)

i am in a province where i can be taken off the rolls for "behaviour unbecoming to a member," or "behaviour another member would think inappropriate," or some such crap. i don't really have any desire to check how far that goes, and won't unless it ever becomes an issue. At the same time, Marquis, i am not about to stroll around in latex or anything like that (though it would be nasty, given that i'm allergic) because i DO teach in this community, and i can't count the number of times i've heard, "Hello miss!" or something like, "I KNOW her!" from a delighted young child who is out with his parents and recognizes me. i don't want to be responsible for causing those kinds of questions. It is fun to slow down and give older students a significant look as i go by if they're doing something they shouldn't be, and watch the thought process click in: "She knows our names; she taught at the school; she knows our teacher and the principal and the phone number" and watch them shape up (being known as one of the teachers who takes the least amount of shit from the middle school students AND teaches primary delights me).

i am learning to take most of my work and place it in a box. my drive from school is invaluble decompression time, and i try not to let the worries impact my own life. (Easier said than done) i do try to maintain that division of self. I AM NOT MY JOB.

i also agree with you about the mental health issue - i have depression and anxiety disorder, and like you, am slated to be medicated for the rest of my life. Although i don't go around announcing the fact indiscriminately, i do mention it from time to time as appropriate, such as when another staff member explained that one mother kept her child at home because she was depressed. My response was along the lines of "Tough shit, take some antidepressants and send him to school." This is a child who is in Grade Two and missed half of K and half of Grade One, and my intervention plan was to teach him the grade one curriculum and fail him so he could learn grade two. My colleague was shocked until i told her i'd been there and didn't consider that an acceptable excuse for interfering in her child's education to this extent. On the other hand, i also helped a mother get onto a better medication when i noticed that she was showing the signs that i had of incipient nervous breakdown while on the same med i had been on. (My way of dealing: to gain 96 pounds in two years. Not good) Overall, i think it's just like most other things: if you bring it up when appropriate and don't the rest of time, most people will recognize that although it's part of who you are, it's not part that impacts your daily actions.

 

[Miss Trickery]

In consideration of the lifestyle I've found it better to never let something be known unless asked directly, and if that doesn't put you in a position harmful to your life. I work two, seemingly normal jobs, and with very judgemental people. People are generally just afraid of the unknown, afraid to explore new things, afraid to take chances. Just being bi has brought me many hardships in my life.

Throughout high school * went to a private school * wasn't rich like the vast majority of the students, my brain got me in. I was considered anti-social and possibly even manic-depressive (bipolar). For the life of me, I couldn't get a boyfriend, who'd want to be seen with the goth-looking anti social girl, right? Everyone fell into their respective cliques. Jocks with the rich bitches, skaters and surfers, the brainiacs, etc. I eventually discovered BDSM and the lifestyle, read up on it, was a bit of a masochist at that time; helped to take away the pain. Yeah pain for pain, makes sense huh? After people found out that I was a masochist, well I was shunned even more than ever. I didn't really mind, I was getting used to it. Then one fateful day, one of the most popular guys in the school (like that mattered) *definitely the hottest guy though* came up to me and asked me out. Well, he talked to me for a while first, then asked me out. The crazy thing was, I had the hugest crush on him for the longest time. Eventually I found out that he was exploring BDSM as a Dom, and to this day, I've still got him.

Point of this is... I just go with the flow of things. I don't step on anyone's toes, or bring attention to myself, and I just live life as it is.

As for the Dom in the community thing... I've often thought of older Doms like those old lions. They control the pride, the land is their turf, and everything in it just falls under them. They prowl around like kings and chase out younger male lions. But sometimes, there comes that young male lion... he's faster, stronger, smarter than all the older lions. And eventually, they have no choice but to give him the respect that he commands. Either that, or those old lions become vulture food. It's not all like that, but sometimes, it gets that way.

 

[graceanne]

I'm a very private person, not because I give a damn what people think, but because I consider my life to be none of their business. I'm also somewhat lazy, if people close to me knew I was a sub I'd NEVER hear the end of it. It's easier for me to remain 'in the closet'. lol

 

[brioche]

I'm a very private person, not because I give a damn what people think, but because I consider my life to be none of their business. I'm also somewhat lazy, if people close to me knew I was a sub I'd NEVER hear the end of it. It's easier for me to remain 'in the closet'. lol

That too.

 

[Softouch911]

You might also face some draw-backs when it becomes too well-known that you're into BDSM once you are a lawyer. Some clients might not trust you, the judge might be against you, the jury prejudiced.
QUOTE]

Of course this is a risk, but I've recently experienced a "niche market" for attorneys who are open to more than 3-piece charcoal suits. When we were looking for an attorney/mediator to handle our divorce here in MA, we selected a minority woman whose web page proudly proclaimed her service to, and leadership position in, the local GLBT community. The city is NOT Boston but a much smaller city, by the way, with extremely conservative values.

She is a member of a respected firm and has a large practice, most of it in mediation. As part of her presentation she explained that she has handled over 800 mediations ....

We chose her, by the way, because we assumed (dangerous, I know) that she would put more of a human face on our negotiations and be less "clinical" ... we weren't disappointed.

This leads away from the point of the thread ... apologies ... but it is worth noting that the community of people who will be open to representation by someone with other than PC vanilla lifestyle and, in some areas of the law, a kink approach may even be beneficial!

Sorry if this is a hi jack.

 

[INSIDEYOURMIND]

While I think the following article gives a pretty clear view of what the Vanilla world thinks of this lifestyle, I am not sure it answer the first fold of your question, but I certainlly feel it comes close.

In regard to your second fold, while we live this life 24/7, we do not boldly go where no one has gone before, we are both very happy with our dynamic, and to our close friends, and some relatives, our choice of lifestyle is an open book to them, with questions answered, and opinions listened to.

This lifestyle is so multi-faceted that seems the norm to many is considered odd by others. I have always gone by the Baskin Robbins theory, with 31 flavors, there has to be something for everyone. I an excluded from that theory in the fact that I don't like ice cream!

I too, am proud to be a part of this lifestyle, and would have no issue in standing up in a room of my peers to state that fact, and answer any and all questions.

May 9, 2005 -- ABC News

"Nurse Nasty," "Wicked Doctor," "The Prison Matron" … not the usual way to introduce yourself, but in the leather-clad world of sadomasochism, naughty is nice.

And pain is pleasure.

"I need stimulation and get a terrific high from playing rough," said Allena Gabosch, 52, a Seattle-based "bottom," meaning she's the one on the receiving end of spanking. The buxom, tattooed, alternative sex activist finds pain play very seductive but, "I still ask for Novocain at the dentist's office."

While most couples don't need whips, paddles or ropes to get in the mood, a minority find sadomasochism, or S&M, erotic. They like to explore the fine line between pain and pleasure to escape from reality, test their endurance, experience a spiritual high or simply to act out fantasies and fears.

The pain can be real, but the goal isn't injury or broken bones. And despite the early belief that smacks in the sack led to mental illness, psychologists say that S&M practitioners are just as well-adjusted as the average person.

Slap Me for Pleasure

Sex or lovemaking is about feeling good, so what feels good about pain?

"People clearly want fictionalized pain for attention and symbolic effect," said Roy Baumeister, professor of psychology at Florida State University and author of "Masochism and the Self." S&M helps people temporarily lose their normal identity and focus on the flashes of pain, he said.

Baumeister described S&M pain as separated from its biological function. "It's no longer about warning you of injury, it's about escaping yourself."

There are two sides of S&M, explained Dossie Easton, a licensed marriage therapist and S&M practitioner based in San Francisco. "On one side, you have the physical aspect with unusual and intense simulations which includes bondage, sensory deprivation and highly selected pain. On the other, it's about bringing fantasies into reality by playing power games for fun," she said.

The essential component of S&M is not the pain or bondage itself, but rather the role-playing involved. One person plays powerless, the "bottom," and the other person plays all-powerful, the "top."

The assertive Gabosch likes to relinquish all control to her partner, although she admitted being an occasional "switcher" — topping one day, bottoming the next.

Renaissance Movement?

Prostitution ranks as one of the oldest professions, but being naughty in bed is not far behind as one of the oldest activities. Culturally, S&M popped up during the Renaissance.

"People mention someone doing this in letters and it starts appearing in porn material in the 1500s, but by the 17th century it was all over the place," said Baumeister.

World War II brought to the surface a gay scene that many credit for pushing the limits of sexual play. In the late 1960s, flower children demanded sexual freedom and sexual mores loosened. And by the 1980s, the American Psychiatric Association removed S&M from its mental disorder category.

Runner's High

When Gabosch acts out an S&M scene, she laughs, roars and curses and at times is brought to tears, she said. The challenge of enduring the scenes pumps her up.

"When the endorphins kick in, my age regresses, I get loving and I'm in an ecstatic state," she said.

Pain, for most people, acts as a warning signal, like when you jerk your hand away from a hot surface. S&M thrill seekers desire pain because it acts like a narcotic, releasing an adrenaline rush.

Patricia Payne, author of "Sex Tips from a Dominatrix," likens it to a runner's high. "Just like runners hitting the wall and losing track of their legs, people try to create that same sensation and reaction using pain."

For some that pain can even lead to an orgasm, she added.

How Safe Is It?

Payne traveled the country for three years to research her book, going to designated clubs, S&M fetish association meetings and countless "dungeons" — a place designated for S&M play. Most places forbid full sexual contact and every club has dungeon masters — lifeguards of sorts in case of a mishap.

"People go to clubs or dungeons to meet like-minded people but also because of the equipment," she said. Blindfolds fit just fine in a night table but not wooden Catherine wheels, a vertical Wheel of Fortune-type contraption with radial spokes onto which you attach your partner.

Toys of all sizes are aplenty, including suede flogs, leopardskin handcuffs, paddles and whips (which take some mastering, according to experts).

Morgan Lewis — also known as "Her Majesty the Queen" — likes to play sex games with submissive men, but she stresses the importance of getting to know each other. "It's not any different from any other relationship, you share your likes and dislikes and you find out each person's expectations," she said.

Lewis, a curvaceous dominatrix, believes limits can be tested, but that it's her job not to take the game too far in her personal relationships. "Not all fantasies should be carried out," she said.

Most couples choose a "safe word," that signals to the "top" to stop a scene immediately. A word like "no" or "stop" may actually intensify a scene because it's part of the submissive fantasy, so instead a color code is often established.

The S&M community swears by its motto, SSC, which means safe, sane and consensual.

The Naughty Ones

Critics of bondage, submission and the S&M culture believe participants are abusive, desensitized and sick. Not so, said Baumeister.

"There's no sign people who enjoy masochism are mentally ill at an elevated rate," he said.

Baumeister estimated that only 1 percent of the population engages regularly in S&M but that most everyone fantasizes about it. Overall, he said, more men follow through with their fantasies than women.

New York-based sex therapist and psychologist Dagmar O'Connor believes people who follow through with pain play are repeating early sexual imprints. "Either they were humiliated or they felt arousal or shame during a punishment and they want to relive the victim/perpetrator roles."

Dossie Easton disagreed.

"I don't think it's a pathological response because lots of people who like S&M didn't grow up with abuse or corporal punishment," she said. Easton thinks you can't even guess correctly who's a masochist or a sadist when people get together in street clothes because personalities rarely match the stereotypes.

For O'Connor, S&M in a controlled environment or in the privacy of your own bedroom is minor compared to the rampant self-abuse in our society.

"People put themselves at risk all the time doing drugs, flying airplanes, binging on alcohol and food, there's nothing wrong with having fun with sex."

 

[AngelicAssassin]

What does the casual vanilla observer think of BDSM,

I really have no concept of what the average person thinks of BDSM, if they do at all.

For g&g, i did a quickie search and found this. Interesting read indeed.

and how far are you willing to go to protect yourself from that image?

Debating how to answer this question. i normally keep my business my business. i rarely, if ever, discuss the topic in idle conversations with workmates, be they peer, subordinate, or boss. i will, on occasion, slip the innocuous question between a male's ribs if he's said something with overtones. i enjoy watching the squirm from most faces while they try to answer. Rarely do i get asked anything in return.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

I don't post much anymore, but I had to stop and post to this one. Marquis, that had to be the most insightful thing I've read in a while. It definitely touched me on many levels, because I probably think about alot of the exact same things you think about. I can honestly say, "I know what you're talking about". It's an every day struggle for me to decide whether or not to be out about my bipolar disorder. It's no struggle at all to know whether or not to be out about my BDSM--it's just between he and I and our friends who are also into BDSM.

I am extremely private. When I say extremely, I mean--pathologically. I don't much like to leave my house, except to go to work, or out for a Saturday trip with JM to eat out and shop. We like to be at home, and I feel safest there. I have friends at work, and I have had to share my bipolar disorder with some of them. Mainly my boss, and one of the directors who is my equal. My illness is under control, I haven't had any hospitalizations in a few years, or any lost time from work. But that stigma still burns, you know? I imagine I can see it in people's faces. If word of that got around to the physicians I work with, or the resident's families, I feel that my position would be in jeopardy.

I'm amazed at you, at your courage to live your life on the outside of your skin--to be out in all those ways. I wonder what kind of lawyer you'll become. I have a hard time seeing you as a great trial lawyer, no offense intended. It seems to me that your credibility would be called in to question at every turn. But, perhaps I don't know enough about the whole system. I'd like to think that you will be an immense success for your incredible honesty. That's what I'm going to hope for.

I'll take your inspiration under advisement...thank you

 

[marieR19]

Marquis, that had to be the most insightful thing I've read in a while.

I definately have to agree there. This entire thread has really got me thinking, I love the responses.
"The casual vanilla observer".... Hmm. I think that, like other "controversial" issues and lifestyles, bdsm is observed differently by people of different ages. For example, I really doubt that my grandparents or any of there friends would accept it if they knew that I was into it. But people my age.... My first year in high school was when I first shared my secret with anyone (that person ended up being my first girlfriend). She opened my eyes to the online world of bdsm, which until then I had pretty much been blind to (I'd relied on fantasies and writing stories). I wrote my stories in class, and also almost got caught by teachers a few times, but it gave the oppertunity for my friends to be curious about what I was writing.... So eventually there was at least one friend in every class who knew what I was into, and who liked reading my stories as I wrote them. And I never came across anyone who was repulsed by it. lol Weird, half the freakin' school taunted me for being gay, but not one person said anything bad about my bdsm tendencies.
On the other hand, my current girlfriend was scared shitless by that kind of stuff before we got together. She would literally cry about it, because she had been brought up thinking gay people and people into bdsm were totally evil.

As for what I would do protect myself from a "bad image" or whatever.... Nothing. I'm really weird about caring about what people think about me.... I don't. At all. To the point where I actually flaunt my differentness, specifically so I know who doesn't like me because of certain things. That saying "I'd rather be hated for who I am then liked for who I'm not", I feel that in the extremities.... I have had so many "friends" abandon me because of who I am that I want everyone to know up-front "hey, this is me, if you can't handle that then you can just walk away". I'm not in-your-face, I'd never force it or anything, I'm just very very honest.
Anyways.


Heather

 

[catalina_francisco]

I can identify with your questioning how much might be too much, especially in terms of career and future opportunities. I have had to deal with the same issue on a number of fronts, those being depressive illness, sexuality issues of a couple of varieties, and BDSM. I was advised during my studies to try and hide it, try and become someone I am not when around others, and for extra safety ion my own time and place as well....and I contemplated it as much as it went against everything I was and believed in.....but like you my need to be authentic to myself, and proud of who and what I am kept over riding the cautions. A lot of it was tied in with the battles I had been through to get to where I was, the lengths I had gone to that others had caved in and given up on in their own lives, and the feeling I just didn't then want to feel I had been pushed under again and ultimately in a round about way told my interests/concerns were unimportant when compared to people who chose a vanilla, safe existence. I also was one who felt there was room for change and that change does not happen by doing as everyone has been doing forever, acceptance does not happen by hiding those things that need accepting because those who don't want to accept force the oppression and power over.

I can't say it was easy, or that it did my career wonders in every sphere (though it had miraculous results in some areas), but it was the best choice for me as I just do not win when I try and lie or be someone other than who I am. The areas where it caused concern and at times sleepless nights and repercussions were outweighed by the successes and the times when I was given credit for being honest and authentic, and actually got things done where many had failed to move mountains on before. For me I could have ensured a different career path that would perhaps have held more glory and more open doors, but personally I could never have walked through those doors and looked myself in the mirror again.

LOL, nice to know I am also not the only mother who happily leads my daughter into this life.....though her own interest has always been alive and well. We trade our tips and ideas now between us. Good luck with the exams, though I suspect you will not need it.

Catalina

 

[Neomagalie]

.....

 

[Andante]

I'll be frank and admit that I don't always agree with you, Marquis, and I do have mixed feelings about some of the stuff you writes.

But in this particular case, I concur. I dip my flag for a sane, honest and admirable post.

Also, I wish you the best of luck with your mid-terms.

 

[gingermango]

I can identify with your questioning how much might be too much, especially in terms of career and future opportunities.

That is especially important to some, not so much to others. I am an attorney in a medium-small city in Tennessee and if what I do for fun and personal/emotional/sexual satisfaction is too widely known, my practice (and hence my family's financial security) will suffer. That's just the way it is in my community. Some of my close (and even non-sexual) friends know my kinks as does my own mother, though not my wife's parents). Having a spouse who shares your passions and kinks is a priceless gift. Friends who do likewise is wonderful as well.

That said, I don't intend to allow my career to be held hostage by close-minded, ignorant, judmental and unaccepting people. What I do for myself and my dominant has nothing whatsoever to do with my professional qualifications and services for my clients, but most in this community are unable to separate the two.

Consequently, I am who I am, but I keep that part of me private except to those who've earned my trust.

 

[FurryFury]

I keep it quiet too all but the few I trust. In my career it would cost me most if not all of my bookings.

My best buds, who I trust, know about a lot of what I do. In fact, they know just as much as they seem interested in.

Many of them used to talk to me about being into D/s which I only had the faintest idea of what they meant. Something about a picture with a leash on one. LOL! Or they would talk to me about going to a fetish con. That intrigued me but I couldn't see ever doing it and thought they were a bit strange and brave to do it. Others would argue with me about the relationship between Buffy and Spike.

Until recently, I was of the firm opinion that I liked sex and violence but not together in my media entertainment. I wouldn't say I was ever average but I did consider myself vanilla, though I didn't know that term then. My attitude was great if you are happy. (In the quiet moments, I might have thought to myself, "how odd of them but whatever works...")

Now I get them a lot better and they in turn get me! I am very happy to have discovered this part of myself which was so clearly there all along. I am thrilled to have such tolerant and open friends.

Others don't need to know. If it weren't for my career I might be a lot more open because I really don't care what people who can do nothing to me think anymore.

I think it's great that you are trying to teach and reach out. If you can do that and it doesn't negatively impact your choice of careers that is great!

Good luck on your tests!

Fury

 

[Netzach]

Obviously I'm fairly out in the larger world.

I did time working in a corporate environment and I plan to never again, if I can help it.

I've hurt financially for my choices, hugely.

But I would not have it any other way. I can be out. I can shave my head if I want. It's up to me.

 

[SonOfAGhost]

Some good answers above but I think there's a few facets that haven't been touched yet.

Your subject asks, 'Where does BDSM fall in the PC spectrum?', but the body is, 'What does the casual vanilla observer think of BDSM...?".

These are 2 very different questions. While many (most?) people will pay lip service to PC views (or at least remain silent while a True Believer runs on at the mouth) most of those same people don't actually believe PC views, or at least not all of them. To get a more complete answer there probably should be an additional question. The Joe Average views on D/s and maybe some light bondage aren't the same as hardcore S&M.

So, first question first, it depends (you knew that was coming ). Political correctness is simply the new fascism. PC philosophy runs along the lines of to each their own until it's contrary (or at least appears to be) to one of the Core Tenets, in which case it's Wrong (capitalization intentional because of the pseudoreligious zeal of PC supporters). BDSM itself is politically neutral from their point of veiw, it's implementation is not. A Core Tenet is that 'Homosexuals Can Do No Wrong', ever. So for gays/lesbians BDSM is always OK to a PCer. For hetero couples it depends on the roles. A couple that switches would be considered OK. A woman that always tops would be somewhere between OK and heroic. A man that always tops would be an Evil incarnation of how 'Our Paternalistic Society Collectively Abuses Women'. You mentioned being a Dom and it sounds like you're straight. Most lawyers (excluding corporate ones) could be described as semi-public figures. So if you encounter a PCer professionally and they become aware of your lifestyle, expect huge problems.

Mention D/s or light bondage to a Joe Average you'll probably elicit a 'Whoa, that's kinda kinky.' Possibly followed by some sincere questions and/or the nod/wink of Monty Python/blind bat fame. I'd go so far as to suggest that a huge number of people (a small but increasing majority wouldn't surprise me) have done a bit of experimentation along these lines. They just haven't thought about it in the more formal/academic as most in this forum do. Naturally this may vary with geography. The odds of such a favourable response will be inversely proportional to the percentage of locals that frequently attend Jewish/Christian/Muslim services of a more fundamentalist nature.

S&M would change the above to a more shocked tone and 'Whoa, that's REALLY kinky.' You'll still get some questions, but most will feel slightly uneasy with the subject and want to drop it, a few will henceforth feel uncomfortable around you. D/s likely wouldn't impact your career, S&M will. How much is dependent on the same geographical caveat above. You know what your area is like, I don't. It may merely mean a glass ceiling beyond junior management (or equivalent depending what type of lawyering you pursue). In a more religious area, expect to have trouble paying the bills if you continue to wear your gear in public.

Don't underestimate the vindictive lengths the occasional extremist, whether from the PC-fascist left or the religious right, will go to. A real wingnut from either side could make a mission for themselves to bring you down, even if they have to fabricate the means, because of what you represent to them (not to be confused with what you really stand for).

 

[Private_Label]

The question I'm asking here is sort of twofold.

What does the casual vanilla observer think of BDSM, and how far are you willing to go to protect yourself from that image?

At one point I would have said, I was a casual vanilla observer, but now I'm not so certain since I am here.

My mother - I would call a vanilla observer. When I bought my vibrators, I don't know what upset her the most about it- that I bought them, or that I was so casual about buying them. She would never want her name known in any way shape or form as being associated with sexual "toys." These weren't floggers, whips or paddles, but vibrators. Hardly instruments of pain - but she saw them as KINK - and didn't want to be associated with it. She is afraid of what her co-workers might think if they learned I had a vibrator (most of them wouldn't care, I believe). She grew up in the '40's and '50's where dating someone outside your religion, let alone ethnicity, was frowned upon (the fact that she was a protestant who married a Lutheran sent shock waves through the family apparently). I think if a co-worker of hers saw me at a munch would mortify my mother.

A few years ago, I would have said it wasn't something for me, that I didn't understand why someone would do that.

What am I doing to protect myself from that image? Directly, nothing really. I don't wear "scene wear" at this point, so I don't walk through tha courtyard/lobby/front yard with anything that might be considered unusual. I can't see fetish wear becoming a major part of my wardrobe. Not to protect my vanilla parts of my life, but because it is not something I desire to wear for myself.

Having been considered an odd kid most of my life by my mother (extremely bright, reading fantasy and Sci-fi, marching to the beat of my own inner drum) and asking questions and going places because I lacked the shyness to hold me back on some things - I don't think I would attempt to hide my choices if someone asked me point blank, but I also am not going out of my way to highlight them either.

As has been mentioned by others, I live in a large metropolitan area, but the portion of town I am in, people get recognized at local businesses. My work is a service oriented sector. If I were to start sporting a punk mulit-colored mohawk look, or extensive tattoo work, or wearing inappropriate dress to work - any of these things would have the potential to reflect badly on the establishment. Now, that doesn't mean I can't go pantyless if instructed - it just means I need to wear a good slip under the dress so my boss and co-workers never guess that I am going commando. It doesn't mean I can't have a tattoo, it just means it needs to be in a location that clothing will easily cover - or is of a small and tasteful size that will not draw attention to itself.

Sometimes the excitement from trying to skirt close to the edge on some things at work (telephone conversations) have gotten me very worked up to the point that my body was still humming hours later when I went home.

 

[sincerely_helene]

The question I'm asking here is sort of twofold.

What does the casual vanilla observer think of BDSM, and how far are you willing to go to protect yourself from that image?


Many a Saturday night I have walked through my building's lobby in full latex. I find that people tend to look away and act as if nothing is unusual, which kind of bothers me more than if they had pointed and stared.

On the facebook, an online networking community for college (I think high school too, now) students, I did a search to find I am the only one, of thousands, who has BDSM listed as an interest.

I know it's only a matter of time before some snooping law student finds Lit, as I occasionally check it at school. I try to be private about it, but I guess that only makes them more interested.

I consider myself very open about who I am and what I'm about, in all ways. I have plenty of skeletons, I just keep them in the living room. I've often been criticised for this, but I've been criticised for a lot my entire life. I've found I'd rather just have people deal with me for who I am, immediately, than have to explain myself once I am secure in a friendship that I don't need or want.

This has given me a lot of opportunity. I find that people open up to me easier, and trust me more. Through being open, I've been burned many times, but I also think I've gotten to REALLY know a lot of people who never would've said something if I didn't say it first.

I pride myself on being a young Dominant who is serious about the lifestyle. I think I am regarded with respect by those I come across in my local society. I am being trained by a Dom/sensual artist who is largely regarded as the most talented in the state. I threw a munch for local BDSMers in their 20's recently because I thought we weren't offered a comfortable environment to talk by our local society. I've been asked to keep this ongoing, and I've also been asked to lead a similar project by our local society. I've even been asked to introduce a beautiful young lady into BDSM by her mother, who is apparently also a sub.

Peculiarity aside, I don't say these things to brag.

OK, I don't say these things just to brag. The truth is, I am honored to be so active in my community, because BDSM is something I really believe in, and something which brings me a lot of fulfillment. People often make jokes about me being the "BDSM lawyer" and sometimes I wonder if I will have a choice.

I guess my ship has already sailed for the most part, but I often wonder if I should be taking greater precautions to conceal my lifestyle. People often tell me I should conceal my Bipolar disorder, but I always respond by saying I refuse to be embarrassed by something I have no choice in. If people were more open about their disorders, perhaps it wouldn't take others so long to get help.

Similarly, I kinda want to be the BDSM guy. I want curious people to come up to me and ask me the questions we so often get from newbs on this site. I just wonder what it will cost me.

I really have no concept of what the average person thinks of BDSM, if they do at all.

On a side note, this will be my last post for a while. I have a mid-term in a few weeks and word on the street is that a group of Jews in the back have been pulling double study shifts in an attempt to take me down. Reliable sources say they are working straight through the Sabbath. In any case, it's time to buckle down and I'm afraid Lit is just far too entertaining.

Be well, my children, and respect Catalina as you would me or there will be severe spankings for all of you when I return.

I tend to keep a great deal about myself strictly on a need to know basis, meaning if I don't know you, you don't need to know. I do this in hopes that the favor is returned.

If placed in the above mentioned scenario (ei: you sporting the full latex outfit,) I would have likely reacted in the manner those in your building did. Actually, had I wandered in on you merely smiling flirtasciously at another in a completely vanilla situation minus the kink wear, I would have still not acknowledged your existance no matter how innocent.

In general, I am just uncomfortable with someone elses sexual interactions/preferances on display in a setting where I am not prepared. I feel as though it is not my business.

I absolutely don't have a problem with people publically expressing themselves, as long as they can respect my right to feel awkward and look away (and maybe blush a little, too. )

With regards to the bipolar aspect, there is a huge difference between concealing something personal and offering more information than necessary to the public. It shouldn't make you ashamed, just conscious. Same goes with BDSM, 'spose-- it's all a matter of appropriate time and place.

Wonderful topic... Thank you!!!

P.S. Hope you make it back soon!

 

[Freagra]

I've been reading, or lurking, however you want to define it, for some time, but as a stranger haven't posted anything as yet. The Marquis post has prompted me to because I guess I am classified as 'vanilla'; be it with an insatiable curiosity. As the Marquis oringally asked what vanillas think, for what it is worth - my thoughts:

Others have already commented on the PC side of the question and I agree that B/D rouses curiosity. Well, it does in me anyway. S/M is something most people do not understand and therefore comes under the 'odd and kinky' category. Lak of understanding is a fault in many people and not just as it is related to BDSM.

My vanilla view is: if it is something you enjoy, whatever your label, as long as it is between like minded adults - go for it.

A favour - don't eat me for being a lurking vanilla!!

 

[Netzach]

So, first question first, it depends (you knew that was coming ). Political correctness is simply the new fascism. PC philosophy runs along the lines of to each their own until it's contrary (or at least appears to be) to one of the Core Tenets, in which case it's Wrong (capitalization intentional because of the pseudoreligious zeal of PC supporters). BDSM itself is politically neutral from their point of veiw, it's implementation is not. A Core Tenet is that 'Homosexuals Can Do No Wrong', ever. So for gays/lesbians BDSM is always OK to a PCer.

What GLBT contingent are you hanging out with? I'd like to meet them. I have found less and of a sense of acceptance from mainstream lesbians and gays let alone "PC" lesbians and gays whose abhorrence of anything violent extends to the bedroom.

For hetero couples it depends on the roles. A couple that switches would be considered OK. A woman that always tops would be somewhere between OK and heroic.

Um, bullshit. In a nutshell. IME, anyway. I don't know what extreme leftist-marxists YOU'VE been hanging out with but I've never found a shortage to tell me I was wrong wrong wrong. For fucking men, for beating them, for fucking women, for beating them, for fucking at all, anything vaguely stick shaped and vagina-friendly. Until I realized how laughable this was I wrung myself out trying to justify my own behavior, to me, to others.

And if I might be slightly more ok in the "PC" landscape it's not nearly as powerful or as wide-reaching as you think. It mostly weilds power on college campuses and other places of irrelevance. A woman who tops has a much harder time of it in the wider world than you seem to want to paint it.

I'm really sick of male dominants in a male dominated society telling me how easy I've got it, sorry. Borrow the pussy for a day, be out in your kink and then tell me how heroic the world finds you.

 

[bridgeburner]

There is a decided trend over the last few years in women's genre fiction (read "romance") toward more and more explicit sex. There is also a trend toward more BDSM in these novels and for a change it isn't the evil villain with designs on the heroine who's always the "sicko".

Now, I have to point out that my own tastes are what pull me to these books, but these are not obscure authors and many of the ones who were obscure before are gaining a much wider following.

BDSM particularly D/s has always been a part of the romance genre, but it's coming out much more nakedly now than it did in years past and it's more and more often being shown in a positive light. Alpha heroes have historically been the norm and back in the bad-old-days of romance novels the heroes were often little more than good-looking rapists. Kidnappings, "flower auctions", forced marriages, virtual and sometimes literal enslavement. Generally the whips and chains were reserved for villains, but the essential D/s nature of the romantic relationships in these books are impossible to ignore.

In the past ten years the Beta hero has taken the stage which might incline one to believe that the genre is getting tamer and moving away from D/s, but it really hasn't. It's rare to find a marauding rapist hero anymore, but the sex has gotten far more explicit and often strays into kink. True, the most extreme stuff is still reserved for villains but that's being countered by the birth of a new genre:

Romantica

It's basically porn with a strong romantic element and there is no lack of kink here. BDSM, multiple partners, homo-erotic encounters, voyeurism and exhibitionism and lots of anal.

Now, there are still plenty of women out there reading traditional sweet Regencies and "women's fiction" type books, but there's a whole crop of new-ish writers who have come to popularity solely for their sexual edginess so far as I can see. A lot of it gets mixed in with the paranormal stuff as well, but Emma Holly is now a bonafide genre author and five years ago the only house carrying her stuff was Black Lace.


And that's my two cents worth of anecdotal evidence.......which I think I may have posted about before.....more than once. Sheesh. I need to get out more.


-B

 

[rosco rathbone]

I'm really sick of male dominants in a male dominated society telling me how easy I've got it, sorry. Borrow the pussy for a day, be out in your kink and then tell me how heroic the world finds you.

chuckle

 

[SonOfAGhost]

What GLBT contingent are you hanging out with? I'd like to meet them. I have found less and of a sense of acceptance from mainstream lesbians and gays let alone "PC" lesbians and gays whose abhorrence of anything violent extends to the bedroom.

That comment was about the PC view of homosexuality not the gay sub-set of PCers views BDSM. No longer living in a big city, I no longer personally know enough 'out' gays to make any conclusions about the prevailing views based on conversations with them. However I lived in Toronto close to the 'pink ghetto' area for a few years in the early '90s. I was surprised at the number of fetish clubs advertised and how often gay males in particular would walk the mid-day streets in their scene-wear (at least during the warmer months). The last I heard Toronto had the 2nd largest gay population in the world and BDSM didn't seem to raising any eyebrows at all 10 years ago, somehow I doubt they've become more prudish since then.

Um, bullshit. In a nutshell. IME, anyway. I don't know what extreme leftist-marxists YOU'VE been hanging out with but I've never found a shortage to tell me I was wrong wrong wrong. For fucking men, for beating them, for fucking women, for beating them, for fucking at all, anything vaguely stick shaped and vagina-friendly. Until I realized how laughable this was I wrung myself out trying to justify my own behavior, to me, to others.

And if I might be slightly more ok in the "PC" landscape it's not nearly as powerful or as wide-reaching as you think. It mostly weilds power on college campuses and other places of irrelevance.

Well, I live in Canada. Regurgitation of PC Mantra's because people can't be bothered to think for themselves is epidemic here. If the BBC is anything to go by it's an even bigger problem in the UK. With the exception of Fox News, the US TV, movies and musicians (more so than their actual music, go figure) we get flooded with up here is full of it as well. Just not yet as brazen in it's intolerance and suppression of dissent. There it seems to be mostly still in the indoctrination stage . Their 1st ammendment does seem to be having some dampening effect, though the problem in the US, while smaller, is still growing anyway.

A woman who tops has a much harder time of it in the wider world than you seem to want to paint it.

I'm really sick of male dominants in a male dominated society telling me how easy I've got it, sorry. Borrow the pussy for a day, be out in your kink and then tell me how heroic the world finds you.

Don't confuse my statement that a Dominatrix is viewed less unfavourably then a straight male Dom, as doms, for being doms, with whether women in general have a harder time then men. That's a different matter that would be out of context here but lets just say the sum of the two may mean you personally get a harder time than the male doms you know on a day to day basis. I don't know what kind of rude or obnoxious behaviour you may be on the receiving end of. I can only wonder if perhaps you put too much stock in what others think of you? If you don't think a straight male dom into S&M isn't much more likely to have their life completely destroyed because the wrong person found out about it, leading to an unwaranted criminal investigation (regardless of charges being laid or not the damage would be done), than a femal dom is, then you're delusional.