When writers get sloppy

[Norajane]

Ok, then here's a question.

In a situation where a particular condition is more of an exception thana rule (like anal self-lubrication), should an author err on the side of more common experience, or provide a line or phrase expressing that the situation is rare but possible? I can picture a number of ways to do this while still keeping the story going -- someone can just remark on it in a lustful voice, for that matter.

Or are the rules of fantasy -- the willing suspension of disbelief by the reader -- the real rule here? If you have the reader firmly believing in your story, won't they just skip over those details (I'm thinking of Stephen Spielberg and the exploding shark in Jaws -- the physics aren't real but the scene is effective and many people believed it). So, if a reader balks at a detail, does that mean the author really didn't have them firmly in hand and believing in the story enough to maintain their suspension of disbelief?

Good gracious, it takes me a long time to ask a simple question!

The pet peeve I mentioned, two cocks fitting into a woman's mouth at the same time, is often found in stories that are otherwise unbelievable as a whole. I can suspend disbelief to a point, but the double-cock always jars me out of it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ok, then here's a question.

In a situation where a particular condition is more of an exception thana rule (like anal self-lubrication), should an author err on the side of more common experience, or provide a line or phrase expressing that the situation is rare but possible? I can picture a number of ways to do this while still keeping the story going -- someone can just remark on it in a lustful voice, for that matter.

Yes, certainly. or- not SHOULD, per se, but as a (knowledgable) reader I'd prefer it.
Anal self-lubrication is, frankly, bullshit- you might produce a certain amount of mucus but only enough to pass what normally goes through there, which should be soft and plastic. The tissues of the rectum are really fragile. It might not hurt, since the canal itself has no pain receptors, but that much friction is going to wear and tear on you. These slightly earthy details are inescapable elements in a pleasurable practice, aren't they? You might not mention them in your story, but you'd keep them in mind as back story or such... Or I would, anyway. As for my friend, I don't think that bear wants to learn to dance- it isn't worth being tedious about it. So, I bring it here instead

Or are the rules of fantasy -- the willing suspension of disbelief by the reader -- the real rule here? If you have the reader firmly believing in your story, won't they just skip over those details (I'm thinking of Stephen Spielberg and the exploding shark in Jaws -- the physics aren't real but the scene is effective and many people believed it). So, if a reader balks at a detail, does that mean the author really didn't have them firmly in hand and believing in the story enough to maintain their suspension of disbelief?

certainly, again- and that goes along with mastery of the craft, doesn't it? And enough knowledge of the subject to know just when you can baffle with bullshit!

I dunno - maybe the narrating character knows nothing about Wicca and never cares to and that's the point and that's the character

But- from a story view, what's the point it? I mean, I can imagine somene wanting to write a diatribe against the idea of Wicca, plenty do but there has to be a story arc, so there has to be a reason for the narrating character to know nothing about wicca or else it's a superfluity to the story.
If, on the other hand, the author wants to set his story within Wicca, and obviously knows nothing about it, then we have Oggbashan's point again.

 

[CharleyH]

Yes, certainly. or- not SHOULD, per se, but as a (knowledgable) reader I'd prefer it.
Anal self-lubrication is, frankly, bullshit- you might produce a certain amount of mucus but only enough to pass what normally goes through there, which should be soft and plastic. The tissues of the rectum are really fragile. It might not hurt, since the canal itself has no pain receptors, but that much friction is going to wear and tear on you. These slightly earthy details are inescapable elements in a pleasurable practice, aren't they? You might not mention them in your story, but you'd keep them in mind as back story or such... Or I would, anyway. As for my friend, I don't think that bear wants to learn to dance- it isn't worth being tedious about it. So, I bring it here instead
certainly, again- and that goes along with mastery of the craft, doesn't it? And enough knowledge of the subject to know just when you can baffle with bullshit!

But- from a story view, what's the point it? I mean, I can imagine somene wanting to write a diatribe against the idea of Wicca, plenty do but there has to be a story arc, so there has to be a reason for the narrating character to know nothing about wicca or else it's a superfluity to the story.
If, on the other hand, the author wants to set his story within Wicca, and obviously knows nothing about it, then we have Oggbashan's point again.

To you and I and others that think of plot? I am sure you are right, but most Lit stories are based on fantasy and RL. And many readers want it too, HOW TO explain top rated stories?

 

[3113]

In a situation where a particular condition is more of an exception thana rule (like anal self-lubrication), should an author err on the side of more common experience, or provide a line or phrase expressing that the situation is rare but possible?

Good question. Look. A bit back there was that fellow who didn't like Subsarahh's description of a certain sexual position. Now, on the one hand, just because she can do it doesn't mean we all can do it. BUT what she described does not seem beyond the pale. And I think that's the distinction here. Not what's common, but what's believable vs. beyond the pale. Stranger than fiction, as it were.

In Subsarahh's case, it's not stranger than fiction. Now if she'd written about a couple doing a particularly difficult Kama Sutra position (and some of them are mind-boggling!)...then, I, as a reader, would have probably stopped dead in my reading and went, "Um...I don' think so!" NOT unless she prefaced the scene by explaining that the couple belonged to Cirque Du Soleil. In that case, bring on the popcorn and start the show!

Or are the rules of fantasy -- the willing suspension of disbelief by the reader -- the real rule here? If you have the reader firmly believing in your story, won't they just skip over those details (I'm thinking of Stephen Spielberg and the exploding shark in Jaws -- the physics aren't real but the scene is effective and many people believed it).

There's two points here. The first, dealing with Jaws, is something that happens at the end of the story. By that point, the reader is pretty much involved and the writer is going to really have to go overboard to lose them. That's the trick, right? Make it real enough early enough that when you need readers to suspend their disbelief later, they will.

HOWEVER you can't abuse the reader too far in this. That's where we get into laundry lists of extremes that stop people. The guy's cock is 10 inches, he creates copious amounts of cum, the girl enjoys regular, oral and anal sex with him even though she's a virgin....there's only so many things we're going to believe before breakfast.

Which brings us to the second point. What the reader wants. When a reader goes to see, say, a silly Romantic comedy, they've decided from the moment they buy their ticket to suspend their disbelief in the extreme. So they aren't going to ask questions like "Why are the teen's parents oblivious to the fact that she's out all night?" or "That girl's suppose to be plain, but she's beautiful!" or "How did our hero get to and from London so fast?"

The reader knows what they're getting into and they're willing to really, really suspend belief. So, in the case of certain stoke stories here, readers will shrug their shoulders and accept the 13 inch penis. They know it's that kind of story. BUT, if the story is prancing around pretending to be a realistic romance tale...well, then that 13 inch penis is going to jar the reader. That's getting into "stranger than fiction" territory and the story didn't lead the reader to believe they were going there. The writer put the reader in the "Sound of Music" with the Nazis and the singing children, and then took a sudden sharp turn into "Boogie Nights"...

Which brings us back to the copious amounts of butt juice. As we discussed in "What makes you stop"--a writer has to make love to the reader, not just themselves. What this writer is saying is: "This is what it's like for me, so that's what it's like for my beloved character!" --but that's not what it's like for most readers. They're reading this nice romance that feels real, being made love to by the writer...and then the writer fails to use lubrication. "Ouch!' they say, and stop, rather than, "what a wonderful experience!"

If the writer really wanted readers to come along with them, they should have either explained this bounty, or considered that their truth is not going to be so believable in fiction and, if they want to make love to their readers, they're going to have to use a little lubrication.

Does all this make sense?

 

[Guest]

If the writer really wanted readers to come along with them, they should have either explained this bounty, or considered that their truth is not going to be so believable in fiction and, if they want to make love to their readers, they're going to have to use a little lubrication.

Does all this make sense?

I think we should have that printed on T shirts! I think that works even better than the various communications metaphors. I may be speaking for myself, but I want a reader to feel what I feel and to APPROVE of what I feel -- to come along with me and love me, and to do that, I have to make love to the reader. Since every reader is a little different, I won't perform well enough to satisfy every reader I have, but if I know who I'm writing for and I pay attention, I can be a good lover to MOST of my readers -- fantastic for some, pleasant for others, acceptable for even more.

And I'm pretty damned ok with that.

Thank you 3113.

 

[Stella_Omega]

To you and I and others that think of plot? I am sure you are right, but most Lit stories are based on fantasy and RL. And many readers want it too, HOW TO explain top rated stories?

I sure can't explain top-rated stories! It's a fucking mystery to me!
And, speaking of that, it's astounding to me how many writers (and readers, judging by the ratings) fantasies are so closely bounded and paltry. The wildest sex they can think of- begins the workplace. HAS to begin in the workplace, in fact. Or is with their wife, or someone's wife, or they meet at the grocery store, or in school. WRiters will spend thousands of words outlining the humdrum details- and then describe.... humdrum sex. The biggest thrill is cumming on her tits. There is never a respite from the drear.

To me, a sexual encounter can take place completely outside the world, the lovers can create their own bubble universe for that time. The workplace, the quotidian, need have no place in the act. It can be transformative... redemptive... allegorical...

But, dammit, don't try to cram two dicks into her mouth, and don't skimp on the lube!

 

[Guest]

I

To me, a sexual encounter can take place completely outside the world, the lovers can create their own bubble universe for that time. The workplace, the quotidian, need have no place in the act. It can be transformative... redemptive... allegorical...

But, dammit, don't try to cram two dicks into her mouth, and don't skimp on the lube!

You used the word Quotidian AND allegorical in the same post!

I think I'm in love :: pant:: pant:: pant::

 

[3113]

most Lit stories are based on fantasy and RL. And many readers want it too, HOW TO explain top rated stories?

Well, this is an erotica site and most folk come here to get off, so top-rated stories are ones that will do that, no matter how bizarre or extreme or dull for that matter the fantasy. True enough that most people coming here won't care if said stories are sloppy or badly written.

In fact, most people have very low expectations of any kind of story. You can play any number of dirty tricks on them and they will fall for it. "Titanic" had one of the stupidest, most cliché, most hole-ridden love stories I'd ever seen and people went gah-gah for it.

Most best sellers aren't very good books.

We are, however, back to a point that malachite made in the "stop" thread about whether this is going to lure us over to the dark side. I think we need to be the best writers that we can be--and demand it of others as well--rather than letting the lowest common denominator set the bar.

It may not make any difference in the here and now, but it could make a difference in the long run. Example: in Shakespeare's day, the two most popular of his plays were Hamlet and Pericles. Hamlet is pretty brilliant. Pericles is just a crowd pleaser.

How many productions of Pericles have you seen? Crowd pleasers come and go, but truly good fiction, even when it's not entirely appreciated at the time, sticks around.

 

[espeteroh]

The "What makes you stop" thread--about what makes a reader (namely us picky writer/readers) stop reading a story--was getting a little long. Rather than extend it with my question, I thought I'd better start up a new thread.

One point in the "stop" thread kept coming up and grabbing my attention: sloppiness. Sloppiness in punctuation, spelling, grammar, certainly. But, most especially, sloppiness in knowing the subject. Like writing a sex scene when it's clear ones never participated in that kind of sex. Or, as a.b. guye pointed out:



So, now I'm curious. What was one of the most ergrarious errors (lack of knowledge) in a story that you ever found annoying or laughable or just exasperating? Either on-line or in a book? Including common errors that a lot of writers seem to make, pointing to laziness/sloppiness.

I don't worry about how someone has spelling or punctuated but I will always stop when the believeability factors nears zero.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You used the word Quotidian AND allegorical in the same post!

I think I'm in love :: pant:: pant:: pant::

polysyllabic, baby!
("Quotidian" is inspired, isn't it )

*sigh* you notice, though- I'm not actually writing...

 

[Guest]

polysyllabic, baby!
("Quotidian" is inspired, isn't it )

*sigh* you notice, though- I'm not actually writing...

Hehheh, don't worry, I happen to know you have some volunteer reading to do ...

I love language. I love the shape and sound and textures of words. I love their histories, their meanings, their uses, their poetry and music. I think they are fun and lovely and profound. Some people think in pictures or sounds or shapes. I have a running narrative. Words shape the world for me.

And all those polysyllabics mean a nimble tongue and/or nimble fingers -- I find BOTH very positive characteristics

 

[3113]

The wildest sex they can think of- begins the workplace. HAS to begin in the workplace, in fact. Or is with their wife, or someone's wife, or they meet at the grocery store, or in school. WRiters will spend thousands of words outlining the humdrum details- and then describe.... humdrum sex. The biggest thrill is cumming on her tits.

Rapidly taking notes.... Someone else's wife, grocery store...and no playing with the veggies because the sex has to be humdrum. Um...is sensual eating of fruit okay...no...I take it back. That's too creative and they probably wouldn't buy fresh fruit anyway....

Soft drinks and chips?

 

[Aurora Black]

An anal scene where the guy switches FROM her ass TO her pussy

Oh gawd the horror!

or the gigabytes of "slash" being written where an ass-fucking seems to need only "He relaxed his muscles" and lube is never mentioned...

The horror! The horror!

*collapses, sobbing, to the carpet*

Bottled water spew!

 

[Aurora Black]

I had someone complain in my latest story that I wasn't consistent with the sexual scene (the characters wound up in positions the reader didn't feel would work, for example).

They chastized me for my lack of continuity in the sex scenes because they didn't feel it was possible.

I remember thinking, "My husband and I can get into those positions that I put in the story. It's just too damn bad you cannot!"

You extremely lucky, limber woman you.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Intriguing, Shanglan. . Submitting to the common denominator? Why? How does it serve one as a growing writer?

You're only mentioning submission because you know how incredibly teasing I find it.

I refer not to a common denominator of taste, but to a common denominator of physical perception. Undoubtedly there are people who produce sufficient personal lubrication to make otherwise unlubricated anal sex a pleasure, but everything I've read on the topic convinces me that they are very much in the minority (the lucky sods). For that reason, one must recognize that the majority of the readership is going to feel that the description is factually erroneous without some additional clarification. It's not a matter of saying to oneself, "The majority of readers don't like hearing about anal sex, so I must never write any"; rather, it's a matter of recognizing that those readers who do read about it are going to have experientially-based ideas of what can and cannot physically happen, and if the majority are going to think it's a flaw in the story's research, it's going to be a barrier. I think it better to recognize when one's own experiences are not typical of those of most people and deal with that up front.

I have, for instance, encountered the most direct and convincing of evidence that some men can indeed orgasm seven times in a night and that some women can indeed perform oral sex on themselves. However, given that my audience is likely to be skeptical about a character doing either of those things, I'd do best to give them some assurance that I recognize my claims are extraordinary and have reasons for making them.

What was it? You suspend us! (Okay - me).

I would tell, but then you'd think I was submitting to your demands. I'm afraid you're doing to have to beat it out of me.

Shanglan

 

[Aurora Black]

It was a great little story--I'd never read one that made condoms, including rolling them on down a penis, sound so sexy.

Sorry to hijack the thread with my shameless plug, but if you're interested, I have a story that features oral sex with a condom & dental dam.

It's called The Taste of Mint, The Taste of You and it has done very well at Lit.

Threadjack over.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

The biggest gaffe I ever saw was in Micahel Crichton's The Andromeda Strain, a rather obvious place, and involved all the mystery killer organisms from space mutating in one convenient instant into harmless, plastic-eating bugs. .

Crichton's a Harvard MD too. He should know better, but I guess even Harvard MD's can write themselves into corners.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I think sloppiness is a occupational hazard, and nice side effect, of erotic writing. The author is working with a favorite fantasy, sorta letting the creative juices flow, and luckily here on Lit its a monitor screen or all the pages would be wrickled up and splattered and hard to read.

While I would applaud a writer who got all the lubes and condoms into a story, with sutry smokin sexiness, I think a lot of erotica would bomb, and get even sloppier, with too much lube and everbody slidin off the bed.

I agree. I want my sex scenes to be plausible, not necessarily realistic. The sex in my stories--and in almost all of porn, I think--isn't the same as it is in real life because porn is sexual fantasy, not sexual reality.

I don't see many stories with lovers getting cramps in their legs, or leaning on the woman's hair, or men losing their erections or coming too fast, or women not lubricating or getting sore, or even having periods. The characters are usually idealized, and so is the sex. I've yet to see a woman in a porn story whisper that most romantic of sentiments, "Get off me, I can't breathe!"

So I rarely use condoms in my stories and of course no one gets pregnent or an STD. My characters all practice reckless, suicidal sex and get away with it, because I'm writing fantasy, not sex manuals.

My folks do use a lot of lube, because I think lube is sexy. They also do some digital stretching before anal, because I think that's sexy too. However, I routinely tie my subs with their hands over their heads, a position in which her hands would go totally numb in a matter of minutes in real life, and my women are commonly multi-orgasmic. When two people come, they almost always do it simultaneously too.

In fact, I've downright lied in my stories, now that I think of it. Somewhere I've got a scene of two people fucking where the guy can actually see the impression of his cockhead moving beneath her skin. It's total BS, but I thought it was sexy so I used it.

 

[BlackShanglan]

It's total BS, but I thought it was sexy so I used it.

I love this as an eloquent defense. Sometimes one can totally overwork the situation. It's sexy. Let's do it. It's just not that complicated.

Shanglan

 

[Stella_Omega]

I agree. I want my sex scenes to be plausible, not necessarily realistic. The sex in my stories--and in almost all of porn, I think--isn't the same as it is in real life because porn is sexual fantasy, not sexual reality.

I don't see many stories with lovers getting cramps in their legs, or leaning on the woman's hair, or men losing their erections or coming too fast, or women not lubricating or getting sore, or even having periods. The characters are usually idealized, and so is the sex. I've yet to see a woman in a porn story whisper that most romantic of sentiments, "Get off me, I can't breathe!"

So I rarely use condoms in my stories and of course no one gets pregnent or an STD. My characters all practice reckless, suicidal sex and get away with it, because I'm writing fantasy, not sex manuals.

My folks do use a lot of lube, because I think lube is sexy. They also do some digital stretching before anal, because I think that's sexy too. However, I routinely tie my subs with their hands over their heads, a position in which her hands would go totally numb in a matter of minutes in real life, and my women are commonly multi-orgasmic. When two people come, they almost always do it simultaneously too.

In fact, I've downright lied in my stories, now that I think of it. Somewhere I've got a scene of two people fucking where the guy can actually see the impression of his cockhead moving beneath her skin. It's total BS, but I thought it was sexy so I used it.

And because you are such a good writer, doc- it works for you. I'll put up with almost any flaw if the stroke factor is high enogh, anyway- it's hard to reach the back button when both hands are in my jeans

 

[BlackSnake]

... HOW TO explain top rated stories?

The rating system is too flawed to be used as an indicator about stories. Authors are generally supportive and more credical than the average reader. Reader feedback is more of an indicator than the rating system.

How supportive are you? I try to be very supportive, not to give out a blind 5, but to read a good story.

 

[Guest]

The rating system is too flawed to be used as an indicator about stories. Authors are generally supportive and more credical than the average reader. Reader feedback is more of an indicator than the rating system.

How supportive are you? I try to be very supportive, not to give out a blind 5, but to read a good story.

I am very critical and I will not hand out an automatic five. In truth, unless I like the story, I won't leave a rating at all, because I'll have backclicked before I get to the rating page. I won't leave negative feedback, either, because I don't believe it's useful -- it can be more hurtful. If I think a story is good but has problems I will comment with the positive and offer to give the writer the negative at their request -- otherwise I keep my opinion to myself.

After all, it's only my opinion, and only as good as the other person thinks it is.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I won't leave negative feedback, either, because I don't believe it's useful -- it can be more hurtful. If I think a story is good but has problems I will comment with the positive and offer to give the writer the negative at their request -- otherwise I keep my opinion to myself.

I think that's a good policy, on the whole. The one time when I didn't follow this was with the voting for this year's Halloween contest. It was hard for me, but I felt it was important to tell authors when I'd voted less than a five and why, because I didn't wish to seem like a coward who voted other people's stories badly and then tried to hide the fact. I didn't want them to think they'd been trolled. So I PM'd the authors and let them know that I was the source of the vote, and I offered to explain why I had voted what I did.

It was a bit awkward, but I have to say that everyone I spoke to was exceedingly pleasant about it. We've really got a very decent group of writers here, and most of them are interested in improving their writing. Everyone was very kind (possibly due to how obviously awkward I felt about the whole thing), and no one was at all defensive or unpleasant about it. It gave me a very high opinion of everyone involved.

Shanglan

 

[Guest]

I think that's a good policy, on the whole. The one time when I didn't follow this was with the voting for this year's Halloween contest. It was hard for me, but I felt it was important to tell authors when I'd voted less than a five and why, because I didn't wish to seem like a coward who voted other people's stories badly and then tried to hide the fact. I didn't want them to think they'd been trolled. So I PM'd the authors and let them know that I was the source of the vote, and I offered to explain why I had voted what I did.

It was a bit awkward, but I have to say that everyone I spoke to was exceedingly pleasant about it. We've really got a very decent group of writers here, and most of them are interested in improving their writing. Everyone was very kind (possibly due to how obviously awkward I felt about the whole thing), and no one was at all defensive or unpleasant about it. It gave me a very high opinion of everyone involved.

Shanglan

I should clarify. I will give a comment if I give a rating, and I will give a rating of 3-5 and explain why. Honestly, if I think a story is a 1 or 2, I won't have read it. I can't really give an honest rating on something I didn't finish reading, now, can I? 0

We've discussed this before about the relative usefulness of commentary and the ability/desire of the author to hear such commentary. I'm not all together thrilled with Literotica's rating system because it is very prone to abuse. However, I am against anonymous ratings and anonymous comments -- considering the environment here, if you want to slam someone, you can make up a name to do it with. Anonymous comments are sort of silly, being as there isn't really a way to attach a person to an ID here.

Oops, sorry, ranted there. My apologies. Still, them's my rules for commenting. Should someone think my opinion worth having, I prefer they ask me. I'm usually QUITE happy to tell you what I think (Yes, I realize how surprising that is. I'm such a quiet, demure, shy little thing...)

 

[rgraham666]

I did have a woman complain about the man being a weight.

Actually, she squirmed a bit and he had enough brains to realise she was uncomfortable.

How's that for unrealistic?