When it doesn't translate

[IsabellaSantiago]

What are people's thoughts on using different languages or dialects in an English language story?

My specific example is that in Tagalog, we use 'Kuya' or 'Ate' as a sign of respect for elders - big brother and big sister, respectively. I'm thinking 'Ate' in an English language story might be problematic as, obviously the past tense of 'eat' is the same. I could drop it entirely, but I think it's important to the narrative. Would italicisation work?

Also, I'm really interested in how American readers feel when then see 'Arse' instead or 'Ass'!

 

[BeechLeaf]

Go ahead and do it. It's quite common. I've not only seen French and Spanish used untranslated, where perhaps the writer can expect the reader to understand, but also Swedish and Icelandic and Korean.

Italics and context would make it clear that it's a form of address or kinship:

'Ate, do you agree?'
'What do you think, ate?'
I asked my ate about it.

 

[Trionyx]

I agree with BL.
I use foreign languages occasionally in my stories but I usually italicize the words and use them when the meaning is obvious. (One exception was when the issue of not understanding the foreign language was crucial to the plot.)
One thing I saw recently was a story in which several sentences in the foreign language were followed by the English translation. That disrupted the flow of the story and was not necessary. One way to get around this is to write in English what is said in the other language but to italicize it. For example:

I heard them whispering in Spanish, “Do you think they saw us?”
“No, but we have to stay quiet, Amigo.”

 

[Kelliezgirl]

As long as a reader can figure it out from context clues go for it.
If it is something that might cause confusion can you put a quick explanation in the narrative.
"Marilyn always addressed Nathalie using Ate, a sign of her enduring respect for the older girl."

As long as you don't do a huge info dump it works.

 

[Writer61]

I have used many non-English words from various languages in my stories (As yet, no Tagalog, but plenty of Bahasa), always italicising them except for place names. Unless they are very common (say, merci), it is good to include a translation somehow. Examples from my latest story:

Direct:
Dagda announced. “Welcome to An Saoghal Eile, the Otherworld.”

Indirect:
“Madainn mhath,” he said, bowing slightly.
“Good morning to you too,” Granny replied.

Implied:
“Mùch na lasraichean!” he cried, and our torches went out.

As for ass vs arse, it's not my problem if Americans can't tell their arse from an Equus africanus asinus.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Big Brother ate sister?


Could mean a coupe of different things.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Starting in about fifth grade, kids around me started using "arse" to keep the teachers from noticing that they were swearing, so by the time I'd moved, I'd kinda forgotten that "ass" is the more usual word in America.

 

[FrancesScott]

My specific example is that in Tagalog

I had Dr. Trinity Santos (both the character and the actress are half Filipina) use some Tagalog in my The Pitt contribution to Borrowed Plumes.

 

[JuicyLittleKitty]

What are people's thoughts on using different languages or dialects in an English language story?

My specific example is that in Tagalog, we use 'Kuya' or 'Ate' as a sign of respect for elders - big brother and big sister, respectively. I'm thinking 'Ate' in an English language story might be problematic as, obviously the past tense of 'eat' is the same. I could drop it entirely, but I think it's important to the narrative. Would italicisation work?

Also, I'm really interested in how American readers feel when then see 'Arse' instead or 'Ass'!

You can include a short glossary to explain those sorts of words and put them in Italics.

 

[Writer61]

You can include a short glossary to explain those sorts of words and put them in Italics.

You could, but it feels very clunky compared to working the translation into the text.

Follow-up question: glossary at the start or the end?

 

[TheLobster]

Follow-up question: glossary at the start or the end?

At the end, but add a note at the beginning that the glossary exists. Sadly, you cannot predict which Lit page it’ll end up at.

 

[ElectricBlue]

You could, but it feels very clunky compared to working the translation into the text.

Follow-up question: glossary at the start or the end?

I'd put a glossary up front, otherwise what's the point of it? Readers need to know the meanings of words before they read, not afterwards. In any event, I'd more likely translate in context, keeping the foreign words to a minimum, identify them with italics, and let the context do the rest.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

You could, but it feels very clunky compared to working the translation into the text.

Follow-up question: glossary at the start or the end?

I suspect a high percentage of Lit readers would Nope out of a story that opened with a glossary.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I suspect a high percentage of Lit readers would Nope out of a story that opened with a glossary.

True, and those readers are probably going to back out at the first bit of untranslated text they find. Best, I reckon, to figure out a way to show the meaning in context. Cursed if you do, cursed if you don't.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

True, and those readers are probably going to back out at the first bit of untranslated text they find. Best, I reckon, to figure out a way to show the meaning in context. Cursed if you do, cursed if you don't.

Not necessarily. I think a glossary is a bigger ask than some words sprinkled in for cultural flavor.
I don't think OP is talking about long blocks of text in Tagalog, just stuff that will make it feel more authentic.
Firefly is a great example of that. They never defined Gorram but everyone figured out what it meant, and it add richness to the dialogue.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

I think it could be done if it was mixed into a brief Prologue of some kind rather than just a data dump.

 

[SmilingLez]

Also, I'm really interested in how American readers feel when then see 'Arse' instead or 'Ass'!

FWIW, I giggle to myself when I see the word Arse, then I finish the piece that I am reading.

YMMV

 

[WaxPhilosophic]

Maybe a just a brief word about it in the Author's Note of your story. Describe ate and kuya like you did for us. Reiterate it's not the past form of eat, and leave it at that. I've sprinkled some Spanish terms of endearment in my latest works, like mija, mijo, tia, etc. I just italicize it and leave people to gather the meaning from context.

 

[XerXesXu]

What are people's thoughts on using different languages or dialects in an English language story?

My specific example is that in Tagalog, we use 'Kuya' or 'Ate' as a sign of respect for elders - big brother and big sister, respectively. I'm thinking 'Ate' in an English language story might be problematic as, obviously the past tense of 'eat' is the same. I could drop it entirely, but I think it's important to the narrative. Would italicisation work?

Also, I'm really interested in how American readers feel when then see 'Arse' instead or 'Ass'!

Brits acquire Aunties and Uncles to whom they're not related. Those titles are not forms of respectful address, but of familiarity. I'd drop a brief explanation of Filipino respectful address customs into the story at the earliest opportunity.

Americans are easily traumatised. Go for it. 'Arse' is pronounced non-rhotically by most Brits - except the aspiring middle class.

In Newcastle, I once took offence when addressed by a female bus conductor as 'hinny', after seeking advice on getting to where I wanted to go. My mate explained that in Geordie it was a term of affection not an allegation of stupidity. I'd only known 'hinny' as a donkey.

 

[bi_cathy]

I've had Spanish, French, German, and Norwegian in my stories, all untranslated, all in italics. They weren't a huge part of the narrative, and whoever wanted to could use Google Translate to find the meaning (I consider them side quests for the reader).

In my current story, though, there's a LOT of French, and there will be much more once I'm done with it. I can't translate that, it makes no sense. But that's how the story is shaping up and that's how I want to write it, which is quite important . So the Author Note will explain that Google Translate is essential (it's gotten really good at inferring context in confusing sentences). Those who use it will be rewarded, those who don't will still have a good story, but incomplete. I'm not too worried about it.

If you're just doing "Ate" and a few words here and there, you should be good.

I also saw quick glossaries in author notes to explain a few words (@HelenL did it in Seaspray).

 

[Kumquatqueen]

As others have said, it should be clear from context - italics and capitalisation will make it clearer. I'll sometimes repeat the phrase in English, but no more than twice in a section - using another sentence to confirm understanding is better.

I get some readers complaining about my use of the word arse - they say that arse, bum and knickers (and pants) are inherently unsexy. That may be with their idiolect, but seeing as I find ass, butt and panties a total turn-off, we're stuck with it. I've managed to pick up a few readers over the years, sometimes playing with the transatlantic differences, like my "I Say Ass, You Say Arse" series.

 

[StillStunned]

Scott had also read his poets. He quoted dryly, "This officer but doubt is callit Deid."
"Apt, if pessimistic. You have nothing to do," said Lymond, "but look beautiful, honest and English and pray that one Charlie Bannister has arrived before us to smooth our way. Our John the Baptist. A poor soul, but even if he has barely one head, much less eighteen, he will do to vouch for us. We shall converse briefly with the gullible ones at the gate, encounter Crouch - I trust - and return. An innocent and worthy programme. Si mundus vult decipi, decipiatur. Come along, Marigold. It's warmer down there!"

===

Blood from the smashed mouth welled and poured.
"We have a proverb, Señor Huile," said Don Luis sweetly. "Aunque manso tu sabuesso, no le muerdas en le beco."
Scott moved bleeding lips. "Hay un otro, Señor Luis. Ruin señor cria ruin servidor."

===

"Well, it's a poor apologue, I agree," he said, "and a sorry kind of note to leave on. All right. Cancel the sand.
"Li jalous
Envious
de cor rous
morra
et li dous
savorous
amorous
m'aura...
"No, dammit," he said, dissatisfied. "Too fleshly a note altogether..."

- Dorothy Dunnett, The Game of Kings

If arguably the greatest historical novelist of the 20th century can quote Scottish poems and Latin proverbs and toss out 16th century Spanish and Middle French poems without translation and expect her readers to understand, we can trust our readers to figure out a word or two from context.

 

[sijopunk]

What are people's thoughts on using different languages or dialects in an English language story?

This is literally the foundation of my Literotica career, and it's going to remain so.

Most of my stories feature Korean words, and some of my stories are built around them. My holiday story last year was basically a beginner-level Korean grammar lesson, and I've got a work in progress that's a 10,000 word long dick joke in Korean (I said "long dick," heh heh).

I usually know which words I want to showcase, and I tend to pick them in groups. In my WIP, I use a lot of family terms as well as food terms. In my Jasmine Tea story, I used a ton of Joseon-era words.

Then I divide them into four categories:

No definition provided, never italicized - this are for words that are so foundational to the story that their meaning because obvious. I don't do this often, but I had a draft that I called "The Last Kisaeng" and I never defined what a kisaeng was because the story itself was a 15,000 word definition of the term. In that story, "kisaeng" was a first class word.

Italicized the first usage, sometimes defined - these are words where the context can be picked up quickly and they get reused. I don't define "mother" or "father" in my WIP, I just drop them and let the reader pick up what they mean. I intentionally make it clear (eg, she gets a call from her mother, and answers the phone with "aw-ma")

Italicized the first usage, explicitly defined immediate afterwards - these are words where the meaning might not be clear from the usage. The word "gochu" means a type of pepper (it also means "penis" in slang). I define it on the first usage because I don't expect the reader to pick it up from context like they would with "mother" or "father."

Never used explicitly, translated behind the scenes - Sometimes I take a Korean word, translate it, and use the translation but never the original. In my Conan story, the women greet Conan with a "be peaceful", which is the literal translation for the standard Korean greeting (its "an-yeong" or "an-yeong-ha-se-yo" in Korean, but that translates directly to "be peaceful" and I never use the Korean in that story).

Because Korean uses its own alphabet and has its own sounds, I actually spent a LOT of time with each word thinking about how to Romanize it. "Aw-ma" is not how you would "officially" Romanize "mother" (it should probably be "eo-ma") but I felt like "aw" is a better representation for that particular syllable. "Kisaeng" is often romanized with a "g" instead of a "k" (gisaeng vs kisaeng) but I went with a "k" because that's how you'd pronounce the word if it stands alone and isn't in a sentence, and also I like the visual of the word starting with a "k" and ending with a "g").

This is probably more than anyone on AH cared to know, but the embedding of Korean words into my narratives is a big part of my writing so I OBSESS over this. The last book I read was like this (historical Korean novel written by a Canadian woman who is a native English speaker) and the only reason I read the book was to see how the author dealt with exactly this topic.

Also, I'm really interested in how American readers feel when then see 'Arse' instead or 'Ass'!

I know I'm in the minority here, but I don't enjoy British dialects of written English. I can't read Harry Potter or Tolkien.

Obviously I have no problem with British people. Seriously, no shade to the UK writers here, I love you all, this is just a personal writing opinion that I hold. I'm sure my minimalist, US-style writing feels "off" to you guys just as much.

 

[StillStunned]

Never used explicitly, translated behind the scenes - Sometimes I take a Korean word, translate it, and use the translation but never the original. In my Conan story, the women greet Conan with a "be peaceful", which is the literal translation for the standard Korean greeting (its "an-yeong" or "an-yeong-ha-se-yo" in Korean, but that translates directly to "be peaceful" and I never use the Korean in that story).

In my sword & sorcery series "The Rivals', the scholar and conman Sligh often quotes old proverbs. Several of them are literal translations from real-world languages.

 

[TheExperimentalist]

Starting in about fifth grade, kids around me started using "arse" to keep the teachers from noticing that they were swearing, so by the time I'd moved, I'd kinda forgotten that "ass" is the more usual word in America.

So THAT'S what 6-7 means!