When is NO really NO?

[Netzach]

There is a difference between a push back and saying no. In the 5 years we have been together there has been more than a few times where if the dynamic were different my response would have been "fuck no, never"

As weird as this may sound I didn't say it because it would not have been good manners. He is an authority figure. If I disagree there are respectful ways of voicing that disagreement. My PYL is an intelligent man who though sometimes stubborn is open to respectful discussion in certain situations.

True, I have never said no. But that doesn't mean I haven't sometimes been able to convince him to change his mind. Most times I have had to suffer some consequences, but it's been fair and reasonable.

If it came to the point where I said no (or another certain phrase) then it would mean there is much more wrong with our relationship then the one issue bringing about my No response.

This is how it actually works. I never had to threaten him, I never said there'd be no discussion and no persuading me. I'm easily persuaded by a rational argument in favor of other ideas, in general. I'm comfortable enough in the dynamic to not have to use every single interaction as a way to reinforce it.

I do expect the attitude to be and remain one of "yes Ma'am." That doesn't mean "be a robot or I'll throw you out on your ear the minute you assert your humanity." Jesus.

When that's not the case there's very brief correction. If that attitude changed globally, then yes, I would get a different slave. Just as most people would divorce and remarry if their spouse announced that he/she doesn't love them anymore.

M/s is predicated on the power dynamic. Without it you have a nice relationship of some kind, or sexual D/s, or a great marriage or partnership, but you don't have M/s.

 

[intothewoods]

This tends to be pretty much how I feel. He's not a perfect Dom. I'm certainly not a perfect Dom. We're married. We have a kid. We were together long before we figured out our D/s tendencies. But this is why there's a BDSM spectrum...there's plenty of room for the much stricter M/s relationships, as well as those of us who are D/s with wiggle room.



Which is why I understand this, too. Both my Ds like my pushing back. We all like my challenging their authority, gently, testing my limits, getting myself into trouble...not real trouble...trouble that requires some minor consequences that are ultimately fun for all. But we're FAR from a TPE. I can imagine the rules being ENTIRELY different for someone in an actual M/s relationship. I don't suppose that's something the s would enter into lightly.

Some D-types definitely like subs who are constantly challenging their authority.

I don't personally push back for those reasons. Sometimes I just can't be all things to all people. I have a difficult time balancing mom-wife-sub-professional-lover.

There is a difference between a push back and saying no. In the 5 years we have been together there has been more than a few times where if the dynamic were different my response would have been "fuck no, never"

As weird as this may sound I didn't say it because it would not have been good manners. He is an authority figure. If I disagree there are respectful ways of voicing that disagreement. My PYL is an intelligent man who though sometimes stubborn is open to respectful discussion in certain situations.

True, I have never said no. But that doesn't mean I haven't sometimes been able to convince him to change his mind. Most times I have had to suffer some consequences, but it's been fair and reasonable.

If it came to the point where I said no (or another certain phrase) then it would mean there is much more wrong with our relationship then the one issue bringing about my No response.

I agree, there is a difference.

Here's an example for me. My PYL and I sometimes have different perspectives on how to parent. Nothing major, or we wouldn't be together, but he will often tell me, for example, I should be less strict on some issues. On some things, he's actually right, and I've mellowed. In some areas, I think I'm right to be strict and I will tell him why. We eventually end up on the same page, but my point is that I simply don't defer to him in that area. We make decisions together, and with kidlet's dad, of course.

 

[JMohegan]

There is a difference between a push back and saying no. In the 5 years we have been together there has been more than a few times where if the dynamic were different my response would have been "fuck no, never"

As weird as this may sound I didn't say it because it would not have been good manners. He is an authority figure. If I disagree there are respectful ways of voicing that disagreement. My PYL is an intelligent man who though sometimes stubborn is open to respectful discussion in certain situations.

True, I have never said no. But that doesn't mean I haven't sometimes been able to convince him to change his mind. Most times I have had to suffer some consequences, but it's been fair and reasonable.

If it came to the point where I said no (or another certain phrase) then it would mean there is much more wrong with our relationship then the one issue bringing about my No response.

*applause*

Nor do I. The ultimatum thing--obey or get out--doesn't work for me (obviously others' mileage may vary). Having said that, I don't go around disobeying on a whim (or at all really)--I really do want to do what he says.

But I love the man more than I love the dynamic and I would hope he feels the same. Ultimately, he is dominant and I am submissive, but the way it gets enacted in our daily lives is going to ebb and flow over the course of our relationship. I want him to forgive my "un-subly" moments as much as I would his "un-domly" moments.

Forget the labels. Think of this in terms of commitment.

For many monogamous people, forsaking-all-others fidelity is a key element of an intimate relationship commitment. Right? Similarly, for some control-minded people, obedience is a key element of an intimate relationship commitment. And just as infidelity would be indicative of a relationship temporarily or permanently derailed in the former, refusal would be indicative of derailment in the latter.

This isn't a question of loving one's partner more or less than the dynamic itself. For some control-minded people, this is about the fundamental way in which the relationship is structured. Ultimately, this is an issue of trust.

I'm not trying to convince you that this is the best way, or the only way, or the way people do things when they are more committed or more trusting or whatever. There are different flavors of commitment, different flavors of trust, etc., so that would clearly be nonsense. I'm just trying to explain why your assumption about the "ultimatum" style of D/s is ill-founded.

 

[intothewoods]

I do appreciate the "ebb and flow" comment. Sometimes he's very interested in controlling everything, and sometimes he couldn't be bothered. It depends on how busy he is and what else is going on.

We do have a few areas that are very much a partnership (parenting, career paths), and then areas where he needs to be happy with the end result, but is less concerned with the details (cooking, for example), and then areas where he is totally in control and is very hands-on (bedroom, finances, vacation, how we spend our free time...).

He is an authority figure, but so am I. My PYL is the head of my household, on the one hand, but in our home, the parents operate as a team. So there is a tension there, but it's kind of a good tension. I think we kind of thrive in it. It makes things interesting.

 

[Like_A_Virgin]

There is no 'no' with your master. His word is law. You have to accept that.

 

[be_ignited]

Forget the labels. Think of this in terms of commitment.

For many monogamous people, forsaking-all-others fidelity is a key element of an intimate relationship commitment. Right? Similarly, for some control-minded people, obedience is a key element of an intimate relationship commitment. And just as infidelity would be indicative of a relationship temporarily or permanently derailed in the former, refusal would be indicative of derailment in the latter.

This isn't a question of loving one's partner more or less than the dynamic itself. For some control-minded people, this is about the fundamental way in which the relationship is structured. Ultimately, this is an issue of trust.

I'm not trying to convince you that this is the best way, or the only way, or the way people do things when they are more committed or more trusting or whatever. There are different flavors of commitment, different flavors of trust, etc., so that would clearly be nonsense. I'm just trying to explain why your assumption about the "ultimatum" style of D/s is ill-founded.

Oops. I didn't mean to imply that people who do use an ultimatum value the dynamic more than their partners, I apologize if it came off that way.

What I meant was that were my partner to put such an ultimatum out there, I would feel as if he valued the dynamic over me--that one fuck up and I'd be out on my ass. Willful disobedience would indicate a major derailment of my relationship as well, but like infidelity it does not always occur in a vacuum. That ultimatum would indicate to me that my partner would view the failure as mine alone and would be unwilling to look at the "why." It would make me feel pressure to be perfect (even when that is not the expectation), and that's something I can't promise. I'm aware many of these feelings are based in my own irrational fears.


Like you said, this may just be my issue with the labels. Even if the ultimatum doesn't function in praxis the way it does on paper, the way it would make me feel is enough to put me off.

In reality, my relationship does not seem to function much differently than other "control-minded people's" here. He's in charge. If I have an objection to something he's told me to do, I explain it to him and if he changes his mind, great. If not, I do it anyway. I am not willfully disobedient and if I suddenly lost my damn mind, and willful disobedience characterized my behavior, I would fully expect him to end the relationship, because, Hell, that's not what he signed up for. But when laying out the structure of a dynamic, I need the emphasis to be on fixing a problem rather than what happens when it all goes to hell.


I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

 

[BiBunny]

Oops. I didn't mean to imply that people who do use an ultimatum value the dynamic more than their partners, I apologize if it came off that way.

What I meant was that were my partner to put such an ultimatum out there, I would feel as if he valued the dynamic over me--that one fuck up and I'd be out on my ass. Willful disobedience would indicate a major derailment of my relationship as well, but like infidelity it does not always occur in a vacuum. That ultimatum would indicate to me that my partner would view the failure as mine alone and would be unwilling to look at the "why." It would make me feel pressure to be perfect (even when that is not the expectation), and that's something I can't promise. I'm aware many of these feelings are based in my own irrational fears.


Like you said, this may just be my issue with the labels. Even if the ultimatum doesn't function in praxis the way it does on paper, the way it would make me feel is enough to put me off.

In reality, my relationship does not seem to function much differently than other "control-minded people's" here. He's in charge. If I have an objection to something he's told me to do, I explain it to him and if he changes his mind, great. If not, I do it anyway. I am not willfully disobedient and if I suddenly lost my damn mind, and willful disobedience characterized my behavior, I would fully expect him to end the relationship, because, Hell, that's not what he signed up for. But when laying out the structure of a dynamic, I need the emphasis to be on fixing a problem rather than what happens when it all goes to hell.


I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

I feel the same way as you, for what it's worth. In my opinion, if you care so little about me and so much about being right, then the relationship isn't a solid one, anyway. I know it doesn't work that way for everyone, but I need more security than "If you fuck up, you're gone."

 

[Netzach]

I don't think anyone on my side of the issue is talking about fuck ups at all. It's a spirit of the law thing. If you look at me and give me "no I'm not going to do that" especially without some particular reasons why, I don't think we have M/s here at all.

 

[subish2009]

I don't think anyone on my side of the issue is talking about fuck ups at all. It's a spirit of the law thing. If you look at me and give me "no I'm not going to do that" especially without some particular reasons why, I don't think we have M/s here at all.

That's a very good point and important distinction that I wasn't picking up on at all until you just spelled it out like that. That clarifies a lot.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't think anyone on my side of the issue is talking about fuck ups at all. It's a spirit of the law thing. If you look at me and give me "no I'm not going to do that" especially without some particular reasons why, I don't think we have M/s here at all.

I don't think we'd have obedience-based D/s, either.

Spirit of the law is a good way to put it.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

This is how it actually works. I never had to threaten him, I never said there'd be no discussion and no persuading me. I'm easily persuaded by a rational argument in favor of other ideas, in general. I'm comfortable enough in the dynamic to not have to use every single interaction as a way to reinforce it.

I do expect the attitude to be and remain one of "yes Ma'am." That doesn't mean "be a robot or I'll throw you out on your ear the minute you assert your humanity." Jesus.

When that's not the case there's very brief correction. If that attitude changed globally, then yes, I would get a different slave. Just as most people would divorce and remarry if their spouse announced that he/she doesn't love them anymore.

M/s is predicated on the power dynamic. Without it you have a nice relationship of some kind, or sexual D/s, or a great marriage or partnership, but you don't have M/s.

You said what I was thinking....

 

[MasterPhoenix]

First off, I am very forgiving with mistakes... I make them too...

As for the ONE NO ideal, that is my way to reinforce the surrender of control. That ONE NO that triggers the ultimate no is a no of actual refusal, not a "no, I didn't like that buttplug."

I stress communication from the very beginning. Free to tell me what she thinks. I want to know where the emotional landmines are, so I don't attack that area with a brute force attack. I want to know what she dis/likes and will take that into consideration.

"Please don't do X, it scares me...." is acceptable and expected, and can start a discussion or a "this is going to happen" then a discussion later. However, "NO, I won't do..." is disrespect and in all but the rarest case a deal-breaker.

 

[apom]

blow-up doll with a pulse.

I like that a lot.

 

[Lord_Steve]

There is no 'no' with your master. His word is law. You have to accept that.

lol please shut up you unfuckable waste. getting and maintaining consent is infinitely more important than your tough sexman persona.

 

[BBbumboy]

Look, consent is an incredibly simple concept and works into a D/S relationship quite easily. Relationships are mutual. Subs are subs because they like being subs, Doms are doms because they like being doms. Relationships are for mutual benefit. If your sub doesn't like or consent to what you're doing, you aren't being a Dom, you're being a slave owner. If you want a slave, find a slave. If you want a sub, their pleasure is just as important as yours, you just happen to find the same pleasure in your control. The second that control becomes force, you change that dynamic. That's called abuse, because your sub CONSENTED to being a sub, not a slave. D/S relationships are about love, wherever that takes it. That's the difference.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[BBbumboy]

Not at all, it's something I feel very strongly about. If anything I'm glad for somebody taking the time to read it.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[BBbumboy]

Thank you very much. I'd love to ask you more questions on my thread too

Feel free to do so in your thread, or even PM me. I'd be ecstatic.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]