When is it BSDM, and when is it abuse?

[lancemanyon]

Okay, since I've been accused of "hijacking threads" and not knowing what I'm talking about, I'll start a new one and we'll see how many respond. Below is something I posted to the newcomers thread:

Hi everyone--I am lancemanyon. Anyone who ever watched Cheers might recognize the moniker. I am not into BDSM, in fact I consider it a dangerous lifestyle, for both the dom and the subs.

For the subs because I believe most if not all subs have very painful experiences (abuse) in their pasts which have drawn them to this; to have their abuse relived over and over again. Often this is done subconsciously. I also believe that no good can come of this, and that in the long run it will lead to increased feelings of worthlessness and hopelessness. In my opinion a good therapist is the only way for them to heal.

I consider it dangerous for doms because I believe them to be a type of person who enjoys hurting other vulnerable persons. Often acting this out leads to escallation in the forms of rape, torture and even murder. Research shows that many of these people were also abused as children, and turned to abuse themselves as a way of relieving internal pain. When you read of doms feeling frustration if they cannot act out domination upon someone, this is what I am talking about. And I read about that here often. In my opinion they are playing with fire.

This is what I believe. I realize that does not make me a popular member here. That is fine. My purpose here is to present "the other side of the coin", to speak. And if one person seeks help because of what I have written than it will be worth it.

Love,

Lance

 

[Shadowsdream]

Could you please explain your *personal* knowledge of BDSM from a subs and a Dominants point of view and how it has been detrimental to you or your loved ones?

 

[Pure]

Hi Lancemanyon,

Maybe it was good to start your own thread. I've replied to the original, but will cross post here.

I found your views of the abuse history of subs interesting, if unsubstantiated.


But it's worth noting that the historical approach and psychologizing cut both ways, my friend.

One might propose that a crusader against abuse--yourself being and example--underwent abuse, himself; perhaps of a particularly degrading kind, such as being sodomized by one's father. I'd be interested in hearing about it.

In the alternative, such a person would have witnessed such things as a helpless little boy; for instance, unable to stop the repeated oral rape of beloved mother, could only comfort her, after.

Another aspect of a crusader--say, a crusader against porn-- is the great fascination, even obsession with the topic. Such a porn crusader for instance, is likely -- in the interests of science, of course -- to have a large collection of porn. Which must be kept up to date with the newest most objectionable material.

In the case of bdsm, to inform yourself, no doubt you've had to immerse yourself in writing and talking with such people, frequent their forums. Though it's usually a thankless task, your own scientific and charitable motives keep you immersed in such degrading material. Wading in it. It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it. Others, of course, would likely become contaminated, but this doesn't happen to a strong character--as well, an intellectually gifted person-- such as yourself.

So to carry through on the history, I'd be interested in the historical sources of your attraction to bdsm material? How much have you had to collect, in order to be an effective helper? Do continue the thread and tell of your history; there's no need to be embarrassed here.

Aberrant but curious,

 

[Pixie Mischief]

reposting...

my message:


I'm not really one to speak about this since I dont know so much..

but there is a big difference between abuse and BDSM.
BDSM is not about smacking someone around because OOO you had a bad day.
If pleasing someone makes the person happy.. why judge it?? if no one is being harmed?? cant harm the willing much.
bf has sorta punished me over the phone rather funny actually..
and smacked my ass during sex before.. once anyway.. and I've used a toy on him before (he said he did it because I wanted to because it would turn me on and anytime I want to use toys on him to go right ahead) and ect.
There is no abuse nor do I want abuse. Granted my sex life is pretty tame compared to most here. But BDSM is NOT about hurting people.. Alot of it is about Trust.. if the trust is breached then the person will leave. its in the best of interest to both to follow and go with it and not push too much at once or else TRUST will be broken.
Its about giving and takin. Many Doms/Dommes love there subs VERY much. It is not about someone having someone to take it out onto.

 

[scarlet vixen]

Hi Lance,

Since you offer 'help', it's only appropriate to ask, some basic questions: How did you obtain your knowledge of abuse? of bdsm? Any formal training?

What are your credentials in psychology and sociology. No one expects a PhD, certainly, but what courses have you taken?
If you do have degrees, what in?

Not all knowledge is from universities, of course. So...
What is the extent of your interactions with either the 'doers' or the 'victims' of bdsm or abuse?

Are you trained in 'helping'--counselling or social work? Again, not expecting doctorates, but ever have experience counselling--say as a volunteer-- abuse or rape survivors?

Just wondering.

 

[lancemanyon]

Re: reposting...

but there is a big difference between abuse and BDSM.

Pixie, where do you draw the line? Is this abuse, or acceptable BDSM behavior?

Have you ever over-punished/humiliated a slave and regretted it?

While the words humiliate, and slave don't really jive with what I do, if you're asking I'f I've ever gotten too rough, the answer is, of course. It happens, and you can't really do this kind of thing without informed concent. Hell, I can look back fondly at some of my scars.
You've got to be prepaired for the eventuality that someone just might get hurt. I've got a first aid kit devoted soley to that eventuality, and if you're into this sort of thing, you should too. I'm not talking about suture sets, but something to stop the blood, or cool off that burn would be nice.

That's just one example. Just a few minutes worth of searching will lead one to many threads here which endorse what is clearly abuse. Do you really think that healthy, enjoyable sex requires a first aid kit?

 

[lancemanyon]

Hi Lance,

Since you offer 'help', it's only appropriate to ask, some basic questions: How did you obtain your knowledge of abuse? of bdsm? Any formal training?

What are your credentials in psychology and sociology. No one expects a PhD, certainly, but what courses have you taken?
If you do have degrees, what in?

Not all knowledge is from universities, of course. So...
What is the extent of your interactions with either the 'doers' or the 'victims' of bdsm or abuse?

Are you trained in 'helping'--counselling or social work? Again, not expecting doctorates, but ever have experience counselling--say as a volunteer-- abuse or rape survivors?

Just wondering.

Excuse me, but isn't this what I've been accused of? Hijacking threads? I am most willing to share my education and experience with anyone, but you'll have to start a fresh thread for that.

For now, let's limit the discussion to the topic at hand. A good and valid dicussion should be able to stand on it's own, yes? In other words, if your position is defensible that you should be able to present it without trying to discredit me, yes?

 

[WillowPuss]

Re: Re: reposting...

Do you really think that healthy, enjoyable sex requires a first aid kit?


ummmmm ... well, to turn the question around slightly here ....

I cook. I am a wife and mother as well as being a submissive - so ... I cook.

I would hope that my cooking never requires the use of a first-aid kit ... but I have one in my kitchen all the same.




I was a public First-aider, and a Scout leader. I carried a First-Aid kit with me whenever I went out. Not because any of the activities I arranged for the boys in my charge were anything other than healthy and enjoyable ... but simply because accidents can and do occur at any time.

And ... it is far better to be safe than sorry!

 

[lancemanyon]

Hi Lancemanyon,

Maybe it was good to start your own thread. I've replied to the original, but will cross post here.

I found your views of the abuse history of subs interesting, if unsubstantiated.


But it's worth noting that the historical approach and psychologizing cut both ways, my friend.

One might propose that a crusader against abuse--yourself being and example--underwent abuse, himself; perhaps of a particularly degrading kind, such as being sodomized by one's father. I'd be interested in hearing about it.

In the alternative, such a person would have witnessed such things as a helpless little boy; for instance, unable to stop the repeated oral rape of beloved mother, could only comfort her, after.

Another aspect of a crusader--say, a crusader against porn-- is the great fascination, even obsession with the topic. Such a porn crusader for instance, is likely -- in the interests of science, of course -- to have a large collection of porn. Which must be kept up to date with the newest most objectionable material.

In the case of bdsm, to inform yourself, no doubt you've had to immerse yourself in writing and talking with such people, frequent their forums. Though it's usually a thankless task, your own scientific and charitable motives keep you immersed in such degrading material. Wading in it. It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it. Others, of course, would likely become contaminated, but this doesn't happen to a strong character--as well, an intellectually gifted person-- such as yourself.

So to carry through on the history, I'd be interested in the historical sources of your attraction to bdsm material? How much have you had to collect, in order to be an effective helper? Do continue the thread and tell of your history; there's no need to be embarrassed here.

Aberrant but curious,

All very interesting observations, but again off topic. I'd be very interested in what you had to say about the original topic, though.

 

[lancemanyon]

Could you please explain your *personal* knowledge of BDSM from a subs and a Dominants point of view and how it has been detrimental to you or your loved ones?

I might have missed something. Is that what this thread is about? I thought we were discussing how BDSM is different from abuse.

Can't anyone answer the question?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I might have missed something. Is that what this thread is about? I thought we were discussing how BDSM is different from abuse.

Can't anyone answer the question?

Context, bub. Punching someone in the face is assault...unless you are in a boxing ring. Screaming insults at someone is harassment...unless you are a recruit in boot camp. Grabbing a paddle and spanking someone is abuse...unless they enjoy it, and ask for more.

All about context.

 

[Pure]

Hi Lance,

You began this thread with,


I am not into BDSM, in fact I consider it a dangerous lifestyle, for both the dom and the subs.

For the subs because I believe most if not all subs have very painful experiences (abuse) in their pasts which have drawn them to this; to have their abuse relived over and over again.

You've said what a hypothetical sub undergoes is 'abuse relived.' You essentially equated 'subbing' with undergoing abuse.


I consider it dangerous for doms because I believe them to be a type of person who enjoys hurting other vulnerable persons. Often acting this out leads to escallation in the forms of rape, torture and even murder.

You essentially equated the actions of a hypothetical 'dom' to abuse ('hurting vulnerable persons').

Surely in your education work, you don't just simply say "I believe.." Wouldn't the presentation of evidence is relevant?
You yourself said 'research shows'. Why may one not ask you for one single citation?

So, you've made the equations. You've adverted to unspecified research. That's what the thread is about, whether you've got more than "I believe..."

 

[lancemanyon]

Context, bub. Punching someone in the face is assault...unless you are in a boxing ring. Screaming insults at someone is harassment...unless you are a recruit in boot camp. Grabbing a paddle and spanking someone is abuse...unless they enjoy it, and ask for more.

All about context.

Finally! A direct answer. Thanks Johnny!

This statement interests me:

Grabbing a paddle and spanking someone is abuse...unless they enjoy it, and ask for more.

Hmmmmm. So if you came upon a depressed person asking for you to kill them, would you? Is there a difference?

 

[Shadowsdream]

Could you please explain your *personal* knowledge of BDSM from a subs and a Dominants point of view and how it has been detrimental to you or your loved ones?

My questions stand...there is no discussion if you have no knowledge...of course you can postulate all day long if it is simply boredom that you wish to cultivate. Shoving opinions down the throats of others with nothing to back up your speculations is abusive..no matter what context you wish to use as a guise.
So at the moment...you bring speculation...trying to force feed doubts...hmmm still see no BDSM here...and since you have shown no clear correlation to BDSM I see no point in discussing that side of the conversation...UNTIL...you can show Me some relevant BDSM knowledge from your own background...independent of your opinion based on cyber knowledge or twisting the words of others to suit your agenda.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Finally! A direct answer. Thanks Johnny!

This statement interests me:


Hmmmmm. So if you came upon a depressed person asking for you to kill them, would you? Is there a difference?

Depends...on how well I know them, how deep their depression is, and how ikely they are to pull out of it.

I wonder, are you one of those 'blank slate' folks?

 

[SexyChele]

Lance, sidestepping valid questions people ask of you is only a discredit to yourself. When asked what your experience is, and you refuse to answer by saying "keep it on topic", you lead the rest to say - "He doesn't know shit about what he is babbling on about." Understand? You come in this forum, after only being at Lit, what, two weeks? And you want to point out the "other side of the coin." And we are supposed to take you seriously? You, who have not bothered to get to know this forum, or the people who post here? Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Now, to avoid your curt and rude response that I know is on the way, I will answer your question.

First, I identify most closely to a sub. I do not engage in power exchange, nor do I live a 24/7 lifestyle. Whatever kinks I have remain in the bedroom, and that's where I prefer to keep it. I'm not big on rituals, either. They make me laugh. I do not engage in BDSM every time I have sex. Fact is, I usually have more 'nilla sex than anything else. I like and crave both and am satisfied by both.

I work in the field of social work, and am surrounded by abused children all day, 5 days a week. I know abuse. I see abuse. And, no, I have not ever been abused. And your reference to some one being abused sub-consciously confuses me. Children are often the victims of abuse without knowing it at the time. Is that what you are inferring as an argument? While this does happen, and children typically do act out, as adults they equally enter into healthy and unhealthy relationships. It depends on how they process the abuse. (Unless it is sexual - then you get into a whole different set of standards.)

Okay, that is my background. For me (I cannot speak for anyone else, only myself), abuse is treatment that is harmful either physically, mentally, or emotionally that I have not agreed to or have asked to have stopped. Allowing a man to tie my hands behind my back, blindfold me, lay me down on the bed, and take a flogger to my ass is not abuse. I've given my okay for this to happen, and it brings me pleasure. It won't bring pleasure to the woman sitting next to me. That's okay. People are different and have different needs and different ways of finding pleasure.

Now, if I do not want my hands tied behind my back, and I am forced - either through physical force or emotional coersion - then that is abuse. And I don't fall for the emotional stuff. I'm not the type of sub who, when her "master" speaks, she jumps out of her skin to please him. I am human, and so is he. We are equals, period. I am not his "slave", he is not my "master". (And yes, I do separate those words from sub and Dom) If I were in a scene and a Dom were to begin doing something that I had not agreed to and did not feel comfortable with, I do not swallow the "I'm pushing your limits" crap. It is abuse, and he will be lucky if the only thing I do is kick him out of my house.

The subs I've met have been emotionally healthy and strong people. They just have a few kinks that 'nilla people don't think are normal. But hey, it wasn't too long ago that oral sex and anal sex were against the laws in this country, ya know? I have met one or two subs who were needy and emotionally unhealthy. Yes, they would fit your profile, and probably have suffered abuse at some point in their lives. However, a Dominant who chooses to get involved with these subs is asking for trouble of the biggest kind. I think all of us here at this forum have seen this type of sub show up from time to time.

As to Doms? Well, I'm not one, so I just don't know. I would not feel secure with a man who "needed" to Dom or else in the way you describe. If he's in the mood to be Dominant and I'm in the mood to be submissive, then hell, let's let our worlds rock. I have met Doms who are only into pain or humiliation. I have not associated with them as my kinks do not match theirs. Yes, they have wanted to "convert" me, but I do not feel the need to be "converted" and simply avoid them. These Doms typically end up with the emotionally needy subs I mentioned above. They seem to pair off well together. Is it abuse? I really don't know. I don't have that kink and therefore I've never experienced it.

And one thing I do not do is speak of things I know absolutely nothing about. I've found that is pretty damn good advice around this forum. You might want to follow it as well.

Good luck here, if you last. I doubt you will.

 

[lancemanyon]

Hi Lance,


You essentially equated 'subbing' with undergoing abuse.

You essentially equated the actions of a hypothetical 'dom' to abuse ('hurting vulnerable persons').

That is correct, when bdsm gets to the point where people are getting physically or mentally hurt by the sex act.

Surely in your education work, you don't just simply say "I believe.." Wouldn't the presentation of evidence is relevant?
You yourself said 'research shows'. Why may one not ask you for one single citation?

So, you've made the equations. You've adverted to unspecified research. That's what the thread is about, whether you've got more than "I believe..." [/B]

Like someone said earlier, this is a porn site. As far as I am concerned, a discussion board like this is for expressing opinions, and discussing topics. Am I wrong to assume that?

But, just to show you I can play nice, I will be glad to cite professional sources that back up what I say, on one condition....I will ask you to do the same, to shore up your side of the discussion. And, i'm not referring to some underground site associated with BDSM. I mean a legitimate, third party source.

I'll get back to you with that, for now I'm off to work. Have a great day!

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

That is correct, when bdsm gets to the point where people are getting physically or mentally hurt by the sex act.

Some of us find mental fulfillment in physical pain...lord knows getting a spanking has to be easier than running 15 miles, but we don't call track coaches abusers, do we? Ask an athlete about pain, and you'll likely get answers similar to the ones you'll get here.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Oh, and just as a 'thumbs up' to this bunch: since coming to Lit, I've noticed that the BDSM crowd has alot less emotional and sexual hang-up than the 'nilla bunch. While the 'normal' folks are casting about looking for fulfillment, most of this group know who they are, what they need, and how to get it.

 

[cremebrulee]

Opinions are like assholes...

*STANDING UP AND CHEERING FOR SEXYCHELE*

Well put, chele.

I have been watching this business of Lance's postings from the onset and have decided to post my two cents worth (that's exactly what it's worth too,LOL).

There have been abuse issues in my life, but I have worked through them with the aid of a marvelous counselor WITH CREDENTIALS .
Dear Lance, if you want to be taken seriously you need to at least tell them from whence you have gained such knowledge.

I myself have been in abusive relationshis and BDSM relationships and can tell you right now that the healthier of the two were in the BDSM category. I had more respect and more of a say in what was going on both, in and out of bed.
I have never been one to enjoy extreme pain, although an occasional spanking makes me wetter than sweet talk any day (either given or recieved).

I have known more women in traditional/vanilla relationships who are in abusive situations than those in BDSM.

Folks are all different, Lance. Some consent to being spanked or whipped, some to watching hubby fuck someone (or someTHING) ese, some to threesomes, some to anal ~ the list goes on. We all have our own kink. Don't you, or is it the missionary position with the girl you fell in love with in high school and married? Do you have 2 kids a picket fence and a dog?

I would never enter into a sexual relationship with someone I did not know, trust and was sure cared for me deeply. OK, there is the occasional fling thing, bu beyond that ~ not.

Sure folks get hurt.I was marred to a man for years that thought it was a wonderful idea to have me with another woman, little did I know the closet freak meant a little girl. Like YOUNG, very young. I didn't realize it til he hit on my daughter when I was out of town.
He was out the next day at the hand of the sherrif.
Before lance goes off an that tangent too ~ that was AFTER I had already entered into BDSM relationships, it was not the reason I did.

I could ramble all day, but bottom line (for the moment) is that I myself want to know where your knowledge of th subject comes from.
Period.
It's only fair, as many have been open and honest with you.

~Creme

 

[Pure]

But, just to show you I can play nice, I will be glad to cite professional sources that back up what I say, on one condition....I will ask you to do the same, to shore up your side of the discussion. And, i'm not referring to some underground site associated with BDSM. I mean a legitimate, third party source.

I'll get back to you with that...

Great, should there be any substance to your citation, I will reply in kind. Please note that, for instance, a study of 20 'subs' which finds that 30% were abused as children, would not prove anything about 'subs' in the absence of a proper control group.

And would you not agree that citing a psychiatrist's statement, 'Of the dozens of sexual deviates ['subs'] I've treated, most had a serious disorder' would likewise have no real weight, for reasons above, and because of the selectivity of the sample.

Claims such as yours have been made about prostitutes, or gay people, but mostly from uncontrolled 'research' of the type I've mentioned.

Best,
J.

 

[lark sparrow]

Excuse me, but isn't this what I've been accused of? Hijacking threads? I am most willing to share my education and experience with anyone, but you'll have to start a fresh thread for that.

For now, let's limit the discussion to the topic at hand. A good and valid dicussion should be able to stand on it's own, yes? In other words, if your position is defensible that you should be able to present it without trying to discredit me, yes?

You know, you are exhibiting rather dominanting behavior right now in trying to establish exactly how one can respond to you, what is on topic, and assuming that you have right to put others on the "defense" without having to defend your inane statements - this isn't a trial.

Do a bit of research and see if you can open your mind enough to take in anything other than that which you feel supports your rather limited, biased and frankly uneducated assumptions, (delivered with a pompous attitude nonetheless). All the information you seek to expand your knowledge is here in the forum.

Surprise! You are not the only or the first person to see that a line must be drawn between BDSM and abuse. It's been discussed over and over and over as it's very important to this community. You have come to the right place, however presenting your rather tired and archiac "argument" and expecting to be hand fed is a rather weak and feckless position.

Once you have a better understanding of BDSM, you may be able to find someone who wishes to do an interrogation scene with you within mutual consent and limits. Until then, the assumptions you cling to make for a rather boring "discussion".

If you are not comfortable with BDSM then don't do it. If you wish to become more comfortable then forget about the trial lawyer approach as it would be a favor to enlighten you, not a necessity.

I don't really care if lancemanyon doesn't like or understand BDSM. You seem to be the only one who has a problem, and if you want help you might want to consider a different approach.

 

[Pure]

Originally posted by Pure



You essentially equated 'subbing' with undergoing abuse.

You essentially equated the actions of a hypothetical 'dom' to abuse ('hurting vulnerable persons').
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lancemanyon:
That is correct, when bdsm gets to the point where people are getting physically or mentally hurt by the sex act.

Ok, so I'm reading you correctly about those 'equations'. What would be needed for someone to understand your claim--surely the first step in discussing it-- one needs to know what 'abuse' is. Around here, except for children, 'abuse' does not figure in the Criminal Code.

You seem to be saying, "to abuse is to hurt physically or mentally." Are you?

In that case your point is simply a matter of definition, since a sadistic practice involves inflicting mental or physical pain (for gratification). You are simply saying "Inflicting pain is hurting".
A truism.

I hope you can clarify what it is you're saying. Once that's done, I'm still interested in the evidence you rely upon.

Best,
J.

 

[MissTaken]

You guys rock!

I am hear to hug and high five everyone. I have been on other message boards where this question, this discussion, in this context would have reverted to out and out name calling and demeaning behavior.

Everyone posting here is doing a great job, including Lance. No one has to agree with anyone, but disagreeing with tact, class and style is a little seen phenomena on line.

Hugs to all.

 

[MissTaken]

Random thoughts...

Some random thoughts as I looked through this thread were as follows:

1~ Lance? Every single poster here has been evaluated by an unwritten, informal litmus test for credibility. Asking regarding your information and background is not uncommon or unusual. To gain credibility, one must demonstrate credibility and in so doing, it seems by pattern of forum development, be able to support one's statements. No one intends to take the thread off topic, but as has been pointed out, if you reveal a bit about your sources and background, others will more readily engage in the discussion with you. Many of us have had experiences with "trolls" who seem to question and chastise us for no other reason than their own entertainment and feeding their own "greater than thou" mentality. All anyone wants to know, is whether or not that is the case here. For me, I doubt it, but I am one who takes people at face value until they show me otherwise. (Some call this naive! )

2~I almost started this thread last night after reading through some of the postings. Good topic and while I have done some research and have opinions and professional experience to lend, I am curious to see what other's responses will be to the original question.

3~Generally, a Dom/me who is sadistic without concern for the safety or welfare of His or Her submissive, is not seen as a Dominant, but as a predator or something equally negative. There are submissives who engage in BDSM for unhealthy reasons. I believe and in my own experience, these are the exceptions to the rule. However, while not everyone buys into it, most will agree that keeping BDSM SAFE, SANE AND CONSENSUAL is what separates many abusers and victims from Doms and subs.

For Lance, "Safe, Sane and Consensual" is commonly accepted criterion by which to guide and judge your BDSM relationship. These are the components to a healthy relationship and would prevent the opportunity for those Deviant Doms and sickly submissives from engaging.

There are lots of links and research available by which one can explore the SSC facet of BDSM. (Yes! I know we have posters here who think SSC is overdoing common sense or don't believe that SSC is necessary. Thanks rr, for your patience!)

4~I will save my discussion on abuse versus submission until this thread moves forward a bit. As many of you know, I have a personal and professional foundation by which to add to the discussion.

Many hugs to all