When a Dominant does wrong

[CutieMouse]

Callinecets mentioned this in another thread...

Playing devil's advocate for a minute..

What happens when the dominant party fucks up? Do you as a sub point it out to him/her? Do you tell him/her how you felt about it? As the dominant one does that person automatically get a pass because they are dominant and therefore don't make mistakes?

I've been wondering about this for a few days now. I know it's mostly an issue of communication/each relationship dynamic, etc, but I'm wondering how others deal with it.

As I've mentioned in the other thread, J and I have a 3 strikes arrangement. If I do something wrong (out of forgetfullness, whatever), I get reminded once, told a second time, and the third time I mess up it means reinforcing things with a disciplinary action (I dislike the term "punishment", but use that in place of discipline if you like).

So what happens if the dominant party does something the submissive party has a problem with, they discuss it, they agree on ___ course of action, then the PYL fails to follow through? I'm not talking about things like kinky limits and stuff, I'm talking about [minor] relationship issues that would not fly if the submissive person were the one doing it. (constantly running late, not returning phone calls in a timely manner, hitting the alarm 6 times, etc)

 

[Netzach]

Callinecets mentioned this in another thread...



I've been wondering about this for a few days now. I know it's mostly an issue of communication/each relationship dynamic, etc, but I'm wondering how others deal with it.

As I've mentioned in the other thread, J and I have a 3 strikes arrangement. If I do something wrong (out of forgetfullness, whatever), I get reminded once, told a second time, and the third time I mess up it means reinforcing things with a disciplinary action (I dislike the term "punishment", but use that in place of discipline if you like).

So what happens if the dominant party does something the submissive party has a problem with, they discuss it, they agree on ___ course of action, then the PYL fails to follow through? I'm not talking about things like kinky limits and stuff, I'm talking about [minor] relationship issues that would not fly if the submissive person were the one doing it. (constantly running late, not returning phone calls in a timely manner, hitting the alarm 6 times, etc)

Honestly, I think the erosion in trust, patience, good will etc. is a perfectly good punishment/deterrant. When your submissive is disappointed in you it's an exquisitely effective and shitty feeling and they often don't have to *say* it - you just know.

 

[CutieMouse]

Honestly, I think the erosion in trust, patience, good will etc. is a perfectly good punishment/deterrant. When your submissive is disappointed in you it's an exquisitely effective and shitty feeling and they often don't have to *say* it - you just know.

Thank you, Netz. It might seem silly, but it's comforting to hear that.

 

[catalina_francisco]

PYL's are human, so they are going to make mistakes somewhere just on a law of averages. What happens after that varies for each relationship, sometimes each circumstance. For us, like Netzach said, he sometimes realises. Does he always acknowledge that and/or mention it without my saying anything? Sometimes, and sometimes he takes awhile, and sometimes he chooses not to at all. On other occasions I may voice my concerns to him and we will discuss it.

In all these scenarios, it is up to him whether he does something about it or not. There are times he does, there are times he doesn't...sometimes he feels it is his place to, other times he feels it is his priviledge not to...it all depends on the moment, what the issue is, and the level of importance we both put on it, though ultimately the importance and necessity he feels for change and/or apology. It comes back to him being the dominant one and having that right to make the decisions. Of course it also can mean the difference between smooth sailing or some rough seas, but ultimately I accept his decisions and choices....doesn't mean I have to like them, just I accept it is not my place to impose my preferences in any manner no matter who is right or wrong.

Catalina

 

[BiBunny]

When he screws up, I point it out. Ninety-nine percent of the time, he KNOWS he's screwed up, but he's too ashamed (for lack of a better word) to bring it up. If we talk about what might make it better, and he doesn't follow through, then I'll point out that he hasn't followed through. That's usually all it takes.

I have been known to lose my temper with him, though. It's only happened about twice in our nearly two-year relationship, but it's been bad enough that it works as a deterrent. I'm sort of embarrassed about admitting that fact, but sometimes it's the only way to get the point across.

 

[CutieMouse]

I think part of what I'm bumping up against, is hearing my old therapist's voice in my head reminding me that no one is more powerful in a relationship, than in the very beginning when a good foundation is laid... and I'm trying to sort out how that foundation gets laid with regards to life getting in the way, and as the submissive knowing if Life gets in the way on my end, there are consequences, but if Life gets in the way on his end... what is there for checks and balances and correction of bad habits/thoughtlesness/etc?

(The temporary distance/busy thing is making me absofuckinglootley nuts, triggering some old tapes of mine, and frustrating the shit out of me this weekend. Can you tell? LOL)

 

[Netzach]

Life gets in the way on his end... what is there for checks and balances and correction of bad habits/thoughtlesness/etc?

Like I said - the price.
If you let him know how it affects you and he neither gives you the tools to help you through the problem, nor alters the behavior any - you know that this is what you can expect from him.

What YOU do with that information is up to you. There are annoying things about me that will simply not change and annoying things about me that are so detrimental to the rel. that I will go out of my way to change them if I can. If I don't, it leaves M the choice - accept, or leave. Addtionally, these changes are a process and not overnight although in some cases they're drastic and immediate. So you will have to think about things like timeline, and if ongoing attempt to address it and progress will be accepable to you.

 

[CutieMouse]

Like I said - the price.
If you let him know how it affects you and he neither gives you the tools to help you through the problem, nor alters the behavior any - you know that this is what you can expect from him.

What YOU do with that information is up to you. There are annoying things about me that will simply not change and annoying things about me that are so detrimental to the rel. that I will go out of my way to change them if I can. If I don't, it leaves M the choice - accept, or leave.

Crap. That means being grown up, being present, laying out boundaries (then enforcing them), and not hiding and shit. Crap crap crap. I hate doing that. Crap. The good thing is I know it's safe to do it, but goddammit I hate doing it. Crap.

 

[Netzach]

Crap. That means being grown up, being present, laying out boundaries (then enforcing them), and not hiding and shit. Crap crap crap. I hate doing that. Crap. The good thing is I know it's safe to do it, but goddammit I hate doing it. Crap.

This is critical timeline, too. In that, if you decide that you really don't want to control or patrol or have say in X Y or Z - then buck up and give up. This is your chance to decide what "the small stuff" is and is not. Even in M/s as I do it, it's the option of the slaviest slave to say "Mistress, this is how this affects me."

Without that information I'm flying blind. What I do with it and what they do with that is in each of our courts.

 

[intothewoods]

Crap. That means being grown up, being present, laying out boundaries (then enforcing them), and not hiding and shit. Crap crap crap. I hate doing that. Crap. The good thing is I know it's safe to do it, but goddammit I hate doing it. Crap.

I've been doing a bit of this lately in other contexts, and let me tell you, it sucks ass, but afterwards I feel so good about myself.

 

[Netzach]

There are some pretty freaking HUGE issues about my Bull that I would have changed if I could. When I was in my mid 20's I had it out with him, I told him what it did to me, I "how could you-d" him. And rather than hiding or fighting he very gently told me that this was how and who he was and where he was at and what I could expect, and if I wanted to fire him as a lover, that was something I could do, or expect him to be like that and continue on.

I thought about it. I came very close to parting ways. I decided that I didn't want to. Not out of need for him or it, but out of the decision that I liked what I had and what I did get more than I was hurt by what I don't. That if the things that drove me crazy were that endemic to who he is, I would want to learn to accept them if I really do love him.

It really tested my acceptance. My acceptance is tested a lot by that rel. But I weigh things out, and it's always more good than not-good, and it quiets my frustration very quickly when I decide again that I decided and continue to, to relate to him and love him as he is. Now. Exactly. Life is very very short, and I don't have time to put a lot of conditions on love.

I've always gotten that in turn.

The neat part is that this really helped ready me to apply this in my marriage. There are things I'd change, things we're working on changing together, things that M changes as an outcropping of submission to me, and really weird quirks that I kind of hate to love but do.

 

[CutieMouse]

I know that J has an absolutely shitty history with putting relationships first. I know he wants to change that; I know he has the skills to change that. He knows I know this.

I know I have an absolutely shitty history with allowing myself to come last in relationships. I know I want to change that; I know I have the skills to change that. I know he knows this.

Between the temporary long distance thing and the company he's had in town for the last 2 weeks, my patience/strength to stand up for myself is getting seriously tested right now.

Blech.

Thank you, Netz... you're giving me a lot of reasonable thinking things to think about.

 

[Softouch911]

Crap. That means being grown up, being present, laying out boundaries (then enforcing them), and not hiding and shit. Crap crap crap. I hate doing that. Crap. The good thing is I know it's safe to do it, but goddammit I hate doing it. Crap.

In another thread, I mentioned a book (Baldwin, Slavecraft) and a chapter in it ("Transparency") that offers a perspective that may (or may not, lol) be useful.

And who wouldn't hate doing it?

Respectfully, ST

 

[Softouch911]

To answer the OP:

Because I am pretty focused (read: obsessive) I can get my blinders in the way on occasion. When that happens, my girl will wait for a "good moment" -- i.e., when I'm not acting possessed -- and say "I have some concerns about ______, may we talk about them?" Or some such wording.

I feel bad enough that I've put the burden on her to "notice" in the first place and that makes me listen pretty well.

Best wishes,
ST

 

[graceanne]

I hate to say it, but this is an issue K and I have. I always try to say things to him nicely, but K's a bit obtuse. It generally ends up with me so pissed off that we have a huge fight. And then he says 'well, why didn't you say anything before?'

the only reason he's alive is he's a lot bigger than me, and he runs faster.

Anyway, we have an agreement that their's no 'disciplinary action' in those cases, because if he actually was listening I wouldn't get that mad. *shrugs* It's the best we can come up with.

 

[Netzach]

I hate to say it, but this is an issue K and I have. I always try to say things to him nicely, but K's a bit obtuse. It generally ends up with me so pissed off that we have a huge fight. And then he says 'well, why didn't you say anything before?'

the only reason he's alive is he's a lot bigger than me, and he runs faster.

Anyway, we have an agreement that their's no 'disciplinary action' in those cases, because if he actually was listening I wouldn't get that mad. *shrugs* It's the best we can come up with.

M is, as I've probably mentioned, severely ADHD.

If I valued really highly structured D/s over "the spirit of the law if not the letter of the law" there is no way I'd even consider him submissive, let alone a good one.

I do not read subtlety very well either. Some people call it "boy brain" but really I think it comes from living among people who are constantly shouting so if you don't really wave flags at me I don't notice.

 

[Recidiva]

I hate to say it, but this is an issue K and I have. I always try to say things to him nicely, but K's a bit obtuse. It generally ends up with me so pissed off that we have a huge fight. And then he says 'well, why didn't you say anything before?'

the only reason he's alive is he's a lot bigger than me, and he runs faster.

Anyway, we have an agreement that their's no 'disciplinary action' in those cases, because if he actually was listening I wouldn't get that mad. *shrugs* It's the best we can come up with.

I've experienced that several times. That someone will not listen unless I raise my voice or have a hissy. But I never raise my voice or have a hissy.

So it requires listening.

My husband is better at that than he used to be, but for a while there he just said I should get a shovel and hit him over the head with it. To which I always had to respond he doesn't like that approach very much.

My unwillingness to get emotionally "angry" but state what I need (not want, need) in quiet tones, has resulted in me ending many relationships because I require that someone LISTEN.

 

[graceanne]

I've experienced that several times. That someone will not listen unless I raise my voice or have a hissy. But I never raise my voice or have a hissy.

So it requires listening.

My husband is better at that than he used to be, but for a while there he just said I should get a shovel and hit him over the head with it. To which I always had to respond he doesn't like that approach very much.

My unwillingness to get emotionally "angry" but state what I need (not want, need) in quiet tones, has resulted in me ending many relationships because I require that someone LISTEN.

Well, ending the relationship is not an option. And frankly, I've done some reading and his listening issues evidently stem from his ADHD. I try to be patient, but when I'm forced to nag I get pissed off. I hate nagging, and I hate nags. It's entirely too co-dependant for me. If I'm forced to nag to get something done or whatever you can guarantee that I'm going to be PISSED about it.

On the other hand, one thing I've founds SOMETIMES HELPS is to say, quietly, "K, please pay attention, because if I have to say this again I will most likely lose my patience."

 

[callinectes]

Crap. That means being grown up, being present, laying out boundaries (then enforcing them), and not hiding and shit. Crap crap crap. I hate doing that. Crap. The good thing is I know it's safe to do it, but goddammit I hate doing it. Crap.

I am sooo with you on this one Cutie. There is an issue looming large between us right now because of my tendancy to bury my feelings if I think they will cause a conflict. Let's kick each other in the tail and stop doing it. 'k?

 

[Recidiva]

Well, ending the relationship is not an option. And frankly, I've done some reading and his listening issues evidently stem from his ADHD. I try to be patient, but when I'm forced to nag I get pissed off. I hate nagging, and I hate nags. It's entirely too co-dependant for me. If I'm forced to nag to get something done or whatever you can guarantee that I'm going to be PISSED about it.

On the other hand, one thing I've founds SOMETIMES HELPS is to say, quietly, "K, please pay attention, because if I have to say this again I will most likely lose my patience."

Previous relationships were endable. This one isn't.

I don't nag and I don't get pissed so much, because both of them make me feel ucky (very technical emotional description.) What I will do, is behave "as if" I were alone in my life. I'll stop asking for anything and I'll get fairly distant and independent. Lucky for me, he hates that.

I get into a space where I just live as if I were alone. Nobody to blame, nobody to ask, I just do everything that needs to be done without his help. It helps me appreciate him also, because sometimes there's just stuff I can't do. (Last time I dragged out the lawnmower in a pseudo-huff, I couldn't start it. I didn't admit that because he'd already taken it out of my hands amd mowed the lawn before I fessed up and asked him to tell me how to start it. Huffs that end badly are when you're so bad at doing something...you can't...I haven't done certain things in years...)

It gets me back into a space where I appreciate him and also stand upright to avoid that leany thing that might lead to me being overdependent, another thing that makes me feel ucky. I like just dependent enough. It's not my fault that he can fix and do everything.

When I REALLY get irritated I just tell him I might ask him to go do the shopping...alone. I've done every grocery trip (sometimes with his escort) for about eight years. He has yet to go it alone. It really never goes further than that. That's the trump card.

Basically I've had some pretty awful early experiences, but I've lucked out this time.

 

[CutieMouse]

I am sooo with you on this one Cutie. There is an issue looming large between us right now because of my tendancy to bury my feelings if I think they will cause a conflict. Let's kick each other in the tail and stop doing it. 'k?

*Runs up to Callinectes and kicks her in the ass*



Really, I'm stressing over a kind of minor thing here; it's the whole matching set of luggage I'm carrying around that is weighing me down and making me raise an eyebrow. LOL

I've boiled it down to realizing that when X happens, my emotional reaction is Y + Z. It's perfectly ok for me to feel those emotions, and I'm sure we'll be able to talk about it, figure out how to deal with it, and it won't feel as anxiety inducing when Life isn't so very long distance, up-in-the-air and busy. (I hope.)

 

[Netzach]

I've done every grocery trip (sometimes with his escort) for about eight years. He has yet to go it alone. It really never goes further than that. That's the trump card.

Is there some code contained within the penis that stops all grocery shopping when partnered? How do gay guys do it? I am so glad to know it's not just me.

Though if I actually sat and made a list and made it an official order I'd have nothing to bitch about.

Sorry hijack...

 

[Recidiva]

Is there some code contained within the penis that stops all grocery shopping when partnered? How do gay guys do it? I am so glad to know it's not just me.

Though if I actually sat and made a list and made it an official order I'd have nothing to bitch about.

Sorry hijack...

I don't know. But he will drive me when I have headaches, which is often. I WILL however, still have to go. But I won't have to put other people's lives in jeopardy?

He also has to drive always. I haven't driven him anywhere...ever. HAS to. No negotiations.

I'm used to several things that are no negotiations, including some very odd OCD issues. He appreciates that.

Though the thing about him having to make the bed...even though there's a person IN it...resulted in him ripping the blankets off me for a few years, until I got separate sets of everything for us both.

 

[Netzach]

I don't know. But he will drive me when I have headaches, which is often. I WILL however, still have to go. But I won't have to put other people's lives in jeopardy?

He also has to drive always. I haven't driven him anywhere...ever. HAS to. No negotiations.

I'm used to several things that are no negotiations, including some very odd OCD issues. He appreciates that.

Though the thing about him having to make the bed...even though there's a person IN it...resulted in him ripping the blankets off me for a few years, until I got separate sets of everything for us both.

Yep.

OCD and ADHD are sometimes both our Dom.

 

[callinectes]

*Runs up to Callinectes and kicks her in the ass*



Really, I'm stressing over a kind of minor thing here; it's the whole matching set of luggage I'm carrying around that is weighing me down and making me raise an eyebrow. LOL

I've boiled it down to realizing that when X happens, my emotional reaction is Y + Z. It's perfectly ok for me to feel those emotions, and I'm sure we'll be able to talk about it, figure out how to deal with it, and it won't feel as anxiety inducing when Life isn't so very long distance, up-in-the-air and busy. (I hope.)

Yeah, I have that same set of luggage in bright blue.

I am sure due to the situation you are in things probably seem much worse than they are right now. The pain of being apart, the stress of tidying up your life so you can move to another country, his (I am guessing) inability to be have as much contact as you are accustomed to due to guests...it's all huge. Combine all of that with the fact that you are still in the early part of your relationship when chemistry is oozing from your pores, and well, that makes for some serious stress.