What's wrong with F/m in BDSM and how can we fix it?

[ataxia.girl]

i am intrested in power exchange with powerful men. i will occasionally fantasize about being an instrument of power or bringer of chaos; the wildcard. i love stories like "The Other Boylen Girl" where men think they can weild feminine power to their own ends and invariably things go wrong as the pawns they use develop their own agenda.

In the end i tend to identify more with Madame Serena Merle in Portrait of a Lady who is solidly controlled by Gilbert Osmond but without whom he could not do nearly so much damage. Sometimes i identify very solidly with his daughter Pansy but never ever with Isabel, the submissive wife on display.

 

[Homburg]

I'm not entirely sold on all visibility is improvement. I'm not sure that since they're trying to sell me a subaru and since lesbians are OK sex objects it's really a sign of good things to come.

If you are identified as a targetable demographic, someone will try to sell something to you. This is another reason why I don't really want to see what we do go mainstream.

And every single thing you read will begin "I use the male pronoun for Master and the female pronoun for submissive because that's where I stand, but this applies to every other relationship under the sun." O rly?

And you KNOW this how?

And if it's true, then I dunno, SWITCH YOUR PRONOUNS AROUND FOR FUN SOMETIME. CRAZY SHIT, I KNOW.

I actually do this when I write my articles, though only when I know that I'm not going to fuck it up. I said in my intro to the series that I was M/f and would write largely from that perspective, but I do use F/m pronouns here and there. Some concepts are general enough that it does not matter what gender you plug in.

Still, it's a fine line. You don't want to use the other side's pronouns when you've not experienced it, yanno? Ya gotta be careful so as to not get that segment of the population pissed at you. After all, that segment is the man-hating, ball-crushing segment

 

[subbie_333]

The NCSF? Nothing I suggested precludes active participation in, or support for, that group.

What i am talking about is not what NCSF does. And, why do you keep trying to get me to join groups or start my own? i already belong to the group i want to belong to, and, that is the "BDSM community" that i described above. And, what i am wanting to see acknowledged, understood, and, some how changed is what this thread is about.

 

[Netzach]

If you are identified as a targetable demographic, someone will try to sell something to you. This is another reason why I don't really want to see what we do go mainstream.



I actually do this when I write my articles, though only when I know that I'm not going to fuck it up. I said in my intro to the series that I was M/f and would write largely from that perspective, but I do use F/m pronouns here and there. Some concepts are general enough that it does not matter what gender you plug in.

Still, it's a fine line. You don't want to use the other side's pronouns when you've not experienced it, yanno? Ya gotta be careful so as to not get that segment of the population pissed at you. After all, that segment is the man-hating, ball-crushing segment

Being spoken on behalf of is kind of bitey. Doubting your existence and relevance also kind of bitey.

Solicit experts when you're not one. Problem solve with your audience. I don't play with anonymous partners on drugs, but that's a common scenario among the people I gave workshops to - I had this as a moment of "any ideas?" "how could you phrase that in a way that's NOT after-school special or awkward, so you are armed with the info of what your trick has been using as a way to decide whether or not you want to play like this?" I suggested "been partying?" and lo and behold they loved it, non judgemental and non-uptight.

that's kind of an out-there example but it shows we're not a monoculture. Yeah, the same nerve pathways can be damaged if I'm suspending you or mis, but the prospect, as you know, is completely different.

 

[intothewoods]

What i am talking about is not what NCSF does. And, why do you keep trying to get me to join groups or start my own? i already belong to the group i want to belong to, and, that is the "BDSM community" that i described above. And, what i am wanting to see acknowledged, understood, and, some how changed is what this thread is about.

Why? There is so much variety in the bdsm community - the good, the bad and the ugly. Do you want or need acceptance from everyone?

 

[subbie_333]

Why? There is so much variety in the bdsm community - the good, the bad and the ugly. Do you want or need acceptance from everyone?

i know that will never happen. But, i think improvements can be made, mostly starting with basic dialog. i bristle at the approach of "oh i think you're OK, but, i don't want to be bothered with you're wonderful self, so, just stay over there with the rest of your kind".

Unfortunately those in the vanilla world that want to get rid of all of us are in a more powerful position right now. If we purposely separate ourselves within our community, we would never be able to unite quickly enough if/when it is necessary. The GLBT community has done a good job of uniting and mobilizing their community, to take the offensive, even if one may not agree with all of their tactics.

 

[intothewoods]

i know that will never happen. But, i think improvements can be made, mostly starting with basic dialog. i bristle at the approach of "oh i think you're OK, but, i don't want to be bothered with you're wonderful self, so, just stay over there with the rest of your kind".

Unfortunately those in the vanilla world that want to get rid of all of us are in a more powerful position right now. If we purposely separate ourselves within our community, we would never be able to unite quickly enough if/when it is necessary. The GLBT community has done a good job of uniting and mobilizing their community, to take the offensive, even if one may not agree with all of their tactics.

I kind of want the Ra-Ra SuperHetMaleDouchebag Doms to stay over there with the rest of their kind.

 

[subbie_333]

I kind of want the Ra-Ra SuperHetMaleDouchebag Doms to stay over there with the rest of their kind.

Nah, let's just excommunicate them

 

[intothewoods]

Nah, let's just excommunicate them

Well, the men also are under the spell of my magic vagina, so they'll do whaever I tell them.

 

[subbie_333]

Well, the men also are under the spell of my magic vagina, so they'll do whaever I tell them.

Yes Ma'am!

 

[Netzach]

i know that will never happen. But, i think improvements can be made, mostly starting with basic dialog. i bristle at the approach of "oh i think you're OK, but, i don't want to be bothered with you're wonderful self, so, just stay over there with the rest of your kind".

Unfortunately those in the vanilla world that want to get rid of all of us are in a more powerful position right now. If we purposely separate ourselves within our community, we would never be able to unite quickly enough if/when it is necessary. The GLBT community has done a good job of uniting and mobilizing their community, to take the offensive, even if one may not agree with all of their tactics.

It's also a very fragmented community that doesn't agree on anything. Not everyone can even agree on marriage rights within there.

 

[Homburg]

Being spoken on behalf of is kind of bitey. Doubting your existence and relevance also kind of bitey.

Solicit experts when you're not one. Problem solve with your audience. I don't play with anonymous partners on drugs, but that's a common scenario among the people I gave workshops to - I had this as a moment of "any ideas?" "how could you phrase that in a way that's NOT after-school special or awkward, so you are armed with the info of what your trick has been using as a way to decide whether or not you want to play like this?" I suggested "been partying?" and lo and behold they loved it, non judgemental and non-uptight.

that's kind of an out-there example but it shows we're not a monoculture. Yeah, the same nerve pathways can be damaged if I'm suspending you or mis, but the prospect, as you know, is completely different.

Not really out there. It was kind of what I was trying to refer to. Some things are universal enough that anyone can use them. If I am talking strict biomechanics, and it is not something that will vary from f to m, I can feel comfortable interchanging the pronouns. If I am talking something that is core human psychology (death is scary for most people) then the pronouns are likewise interchangable. If I am discussing something I just flat know is going to be different, I stick to familiar ground.

To date, I've not sought out topics that would require me to seek outside advice. My column is pretty basic, and is intended for the person just stepping onto the road less travelled. So far, it's been fine to leave it generic, but I do have a resource or two to call on should I need an F/m perspective.

 

[Fauna]

As a Domme, I have to say that what attracts me to a potential sub is chemistry. I like someone who I can actually talk to and build a relationship with. We are getting intimate on some pretty deep levels with our kinks. Like others have said before me, this is sort of like a vanilla relationship.

For me, with that chemistry, I get that feeling that the man/sub reciprocates my need tie him up or hit him or play with him when we meet. I have had several subs/slaves that fit different body types, had different education levels and different jobs. It was that spark that brought us together.

My current sub has a bad boy past, and that turns me on. Physically, he is very masculine, and extremely intelligent. He does not come off like a groveling sub, which I love. He subs only to me.

We were at a fetish club a few weeks back and he was wearing only a pair of my lacy panties. He said he was scared that someone from his old life would see him like that. That turned us both on!

People who have met us at munches thought I was his sub by his strong confidence and demeanor, and their pre-conceived Male Dom/female sub point of view. Then they saw how he treated me and there was no doubt who was in charge. I think their surprised reactions are cute.

I am my current sub's first RL Domme. He had an online Domme for two years who was rude to him but he stayed with her because he thought that how Dommes were supposed to be: bitchy, mean demanding - like a porn Domme. I think this was what you were alluding to in your post that started all of this.

He was surprised that I liked to talk to him, to find out what he liked, that I didn't mind that he talks to other Dom/mes. We are pretty close, and there is that tension under the surface of "what will she do to me next?" Which is in the back of my mind, I love playing with his mind....

 

[Netzach]

Not really out there. It was kind of what I was trying to refer to. Some things are universal enough that anyone can use them. If I am talking strict biomechanics, and it is not something that will vary from f to m, I can feel comfortable interchanging the pronouns. If I am talking something that is core human psychology (death is scary for most people) then the pronouns are likewise interchangable. If I am discussing something I just flat know is going to be different, I stick to familiar ground.

To date, I've not sought out topics that would require me to seek outside advice. My column is pretty basic, and is intended for the person just stepping onto the road less travelled. So far, it's been fine to leave it generic, but I do have a resource or two to call on should I need an F/m perspective.

Makes sense. I haven't read your stuff, I'm thinking back on a lot of things I did read which insisted "just switch the pronouns" about some pretty psychologically deep M/s issues - and it's just silly, you can't just project it onto most men and expect it to work.

Frankly, the proposed overlays tended not to work on all women anyway, so....

it's very subtle, the effect that reading this over and over has, trust me. If you follow the advice laid out for you as a noob you will find that it does not work in most F/m situations. Most SM 101 kinds of screeds are geared toward a Dominant who has outside, societal and/or physical leverage and a submissive who does not.

That's not my reality most of the time. Being pushed toward a moment so audacious as to be....selfish is needed, rather than the myriad reminders that you could break a person completely with one misdirected word ZOMG.

 

[JMohegan]

What i am talking about is not what NCSF does. And, why do you keep trying to get me to join groups or start my own? i already belong to the group i want to belong to, and, that is the "BDSM community" that i described above. And, what i am wanting to see acknowledged, understood, and, some how changed is what this thread is about.

We seem to be talking past one another, probably because my focus is on people one would actually meet or know, and you seem to be focused on a widespread collection of kinky souls that I just don't recognize as an identifiable or reachable set.

 

[Homburg]

Makes sense. I haven't read your stuff, I'm thinking back on a lot of things I did read which insisted "just switch the pronouns" about some pretty psychologically deep M/s issues - and it's just silly, you can't just project it onto most men and expect it to work.

Frankly, the proposed overlays tended not to work on all women anyway, so....

Heh, none of my articles have been that deep so far.

it's very subtle, the effect that reading this over and over has, trust me. If you follow the advice laid out for you as a noob you will find that it does not work in most F/m situations. Most SM 101 kinds of screeds are geared toward a Dominant who has outside, societal and/or physical leverage and a submissive who does not.

That's not my reality most of the time. Being pushed toward a moment so audacious as to be....selfish is needed, rather than the myriad reminders that you could break a person completely with one misdirected word ZOMG.

Well, I just started the series, so I've not gotten too in depth. Let's see, I introduced myself and did a quickie photo tutorial on a cuff, then wrote about grooming (which was almost entirely directed at my fellow Mdoms, specifically the greasy slobs that everyone jokes about), and a recent article discussing my take on SSC/RACK. Whee, so heavy.

Eventually I will swim in the darker waters, but for now the column is about basics.

 

[Essene]

I'm not entirely sold on all visibility is improvement. I'm not sure that since they're trying to sell me a subaru and since lesbians are OK sex objects it's really a sign of good things to come.

That's cool.

I just see it as it used to be something so taboo that hardly anyone could speak of it, and when they did, they didn't exactly have nice things to say.

Now, some pop tart can get on the radio and sing about how she isn't REALLY gay, but that she liked her forays into girl kissing - and it can become the #1 song for weeks.

I guess I'd rather have it be a cool mainstream thing, or oddity/attraction, then to have the Inquisition out and about.

As for your orientation, cool. You're a rare bird in that regard and some people doubt your very existence. Personally, I don't, I get it. Didn't know that about your relationship to being on top. To me that's a kind of internal litmus test "if I never do it again, do I care?" As is "was a masturbating to this before I met a guy (or gal) who really really REALLY wanted me to do it to them or do it to me?"


It's weird that people with the serious NEED for both find that they can't be understood very well but by others wired the same way. I've seen so much BS floated, about how because you need both it somehow dilutes your ability to be one or the other - serious switches, people who NEED both kinds of activity, I find usually show out at the extremes of BOTH poles where the singly wired often fear to tread.

Someone very dear to me actually told me that it sends their empathy all haywire. They just don't know how to act or something.

They have friends who are tops, they have friends who are bottoms, friends who are switches, but for whatever reason when it comes to sex, the switchiness makes them uncomfortable. Just because.

It's baffling to me, because I'm just my usual old flawed self. You be you, and I'll be me. Why can't it be that simple?

Ok, I guess that's the answer.

And I have to say, having done both - that because Topping is hard, it leaves you open to more judgement when you admit to it and talk about it. Is this just another iteration of "women freak out when they're not perfect?"

I also think that we're getting dangerously close to the assertion that GOOD bottoming and GOOD submission is kind of passive and easy unless you're a boy in which case you have to do all this stuff. (am I the only one who senses this dichotomy in most mainstream BDSM?) This is why I bottomed butch. I find passivity this super-bore.

I also know that there are tons of women in certain D/s M/s and in F/f relationships of a certain dynamic who do NOT get to coast along on passivity or don't care to, when on the bottom. It's just not the knee jerk archetype and not nearly as popular.

I see what you mean, because I felt it too, but that's not what I mean; and it's not what I think.

All I know is that I freak out when I'm not perfect.

I'm sooo not falling for that whole "I'll speak on the behalf of all women" thing again.

Speaking for myself, I have a difficult time letting go enough to submit sometimes because I have trust issues(understatement). I have a lot of pride, and when in doubt I do all sorts of stupid posturing and shit.

When I'm in it, I'm in it, and every bit of energy that I have that can go toward the relationship and making it work does.

I would never say that it's a passive or easy thing (difficult to believe but I'm kind of intense regardless of what I'm doing), but I also know that when the stars align, and it feels right to really submit, that I'm good at it.

It's work just like anything else.

I didn't take it as a dig, but I also don't think you understood what I was saying.

I'm not suggesting the creation of mini-groups based on sexual orientation. I'm suggesting that fostering friendships based on personality types and non-sexual interests can be great.

<SNIP> When we start talking kink, we've already got a basic human bond and mutual respect thing goin' on, that carries over into the conversation.

I heard what you said, and I understood what you meant - that's why I wanted you to know that my comment was not about you. Your comment seems to be coming from a good place. It's just that the concept of going elsewhere because we don't automatically get acceptance here (because of previous experience with OTHER folks) still irks me.

What i am talking about is not what NCSF does. And, why do you keep trying to get me to join groups or start my own? i already belong to the group i want to belong to, and, that is the "BDSM community" that i described above. And, what i am wanting to see acknowledged, understood, and, some how changed is what this thread is about.

i know that will never happen. But, i think improvements can be made, mostly starting with basic dialog. i bristle at the approach of "oh i think you're OK, but, i don't want to be bothered with you're wonderful self, so, just stay over there with the rest of your kind".

Well, the men also are under the spell of my magic vagina, so they'll do whaever I tell them.

I'm suddenly feeling very strange. Did you say something?

We seem to be talking past one another, probably because my focus is on people one would actually meet or know, and you seem to be focused on a widespread collection of kinky souls that I just don't recognize as an identifiable or reachable set.

Mmm sort of.

How about we all agree to disagree and come over my house for ice cream?

 

[intothewoods]

I'm suddenly feeling very strange. Did you say something?

How about we all agree to disagree and come over my house for ice cream?

My vagina is so magically powerful that it makes its own ice cream. True story.

 

[Essene]

My vagina is so magically powerful that it makes its own ice cream. True story.

*scratches head*

Like one of those ball thingys with the cylinder in it? Like ice+salt+cream+flavoring, and then we shake you up? Or do you just slow churn it yourself...

Oh never mind. I'm starting to seriously get creeped out. LOL

 

[JMohegan]

How about we all agree to disagree and come over my house for ice cream?

This isn't a question of agreeing or disagreeing. This is me not having any idea about what he's trying to say.

333 said he doesn't want to talk about how to change society in general. He wants to talk about how to change the "BDSM community" - defined as "those human beings whose activities fall somewhere under the vast umbrella of all the definitions of BDSM, and, who wish to be with others who practice BDSM activities."

I'd say that's a group so broad that it might as well be general society we're talking about.

I'll also note that my friends and I are clearly members of the "BDSM community", as 333 has defined it. Kinky? Check. Wish to be with others who practice BDSM activities? Check that, too.

So I don't understand why he thinks that my friends and I have withdrawn from the "BDSM community", or why he thinks that by suggesting he find individuals with whom he clicks on a personal level to hang out with that I am somehow suggesting he withdraw from the community too.

As I said, this is not disagreement. This just seems to be a failure to understand one another here.

 

[Essene]

This isn't a question of agreeing or disagreeing. This is me not having any idea about what he's trying to say.

333 said he doesn't want to talk about how to change society in general. He wants to talk about how to change the "BDSM community" - defined as "those human beings whose activities fall somewhere under the vast umbrella of all the definitions of BDSM, and, who wish to be with others who practice BDSM activities."

I'd say that's a group so broad that it might as well be general society we're talking about.

I'll also note that my friends and I are clearly members of the "BDSM community", as 333 has defined it. Kinky? Check. Wish to be with others who practice BDSM activities? Check that, too.

So I don't understand why he thinks that my friends and I have withdrawn from the "BDSM community", or why he thinks that by suggesting he find individuals with whom he clicks on a personal level to hang out with that I am somehow suggesting he withdraw from the community too.

As I said, this is not disagreement. This just seems to be a failure to understand one another here.

That agree to disagree thingy was a reference to a few things.

I'm picking up what you're putting down. I can't speak for subbie. Hopefully he'll be along shortly to answer you himself.

I already have this ingrained bitter taste in my mouth, that when someone says "Oh, so go start your own group" I start twitching.

Strength in numbers is good especially when we're discussing the lack of power as a minority. Starting a group is a good suggestion, but I'm thinking more along the lines of how to help the microcosm that is Lit.BDSM.
Start here and work on this for now kind of thing.

 

[subbie_333]

We seem to be talking past one another, probably because my focus is on people one would actually meet or know, and you seem to be focused on a widespread collection of kinky souls that I just don't recognize as an identifiable or reachable set.

Perhaps we are talking past each other. But, i started this thread with the intent of discussing what i laid out in the original post as it applies to the BDSM community as i described it. If you want to discuss something else, that's fine with me - start your own thread. Otherwise, i think it would be a wonderful thing for us to stay on-topic, but, i'm just weird that way.

This isn't a question of agreeing or disagreeing. This is me not having any idea about what he's trying to say.

OK, keep reading, maybe you can understand. If you can't, oh well, i won't think any less of your intellect.

333 said he doesn't want to talk about how to change society in general.

i don't think i said that. If i said something similar to that it was more like the idea of discussing how to change the non-BDSM society is off-topic for this thread.

He wants to talk about how to change the "BDSM community" - defined as "those human beings whose activities fall somewhere under the vast umbrella of all the definitions of BDSM, and, who wish to be with others who practice BDSM activities."

I'd say that's a group so broad that it might as well be general society we're talking about.

If you truly believe that, then, i don't think you understand the value of having a "BDSM community", especially as a way to band together to protect our rights. In general society of the United States, there are laws that protect minorities. That is different from some elements of the BDSM community not respecting other elements of the BDSM community. Is that still comparing "apples to apples" to you?

I'll also note that my friends and I are clearly members of the "BDSM community", as 333 has defined it. Kinky? Check. Wish to be with others who practice BDSM activities? Check that, too.

So I don't understand why he thinks that my friends and I have withdrawn from the "BDSM community"

i don't think that. Doesn't matter to me either way. On the other hand, you are the one who said:

My reasons for not wanting to "commune" with organized kink groups vary. I am neither an exhibitionist nor a voyeur, so (random demos or workshops aside) I have no sustained interest in groups with a public play focus. I'm also not into modern BDSM culture (collars, fetishwear, titles, and such), which means that I'm not even welcome in some places. Further, a lot of M/f organized settings have the feel of group role play to me. And again, I'm just not into that type of thing.

You said it, not me.

Also, to me, this forum is part of the BDSM community as i see it. According to what you have said above, you view the BDSM community as something that is fairly well structured and organized. How do you view this forum? You are interacting with people who are not part of your close-knit real life BDSM group. As i see it, how you act here affects the BDSM community, granted only to a small degree (just like me). But, people like you and me eventually add up to a cumulative effect, and, that is what shapes a community. If a bunch of people disrespect female PYLs and male pyls, then, that is a problem for the community. And, recognition of that, coupled with a desire to work towards constructive change, leads some people to create threads on web site forums to discuss the issue. If you don't see things the same way, oh well, that's life.

or why he thinks that by suggesting he find individuals with whom he clicks on a personal level to hang out with that I am somehow suggesting he withdraw from the community too.

Again, your suggestion would be off-topic for the thread. My purpose in starting the thread was *not* to find others in my personal real life like me to help me feel better. The purpose was to bring up something that happens in the BDSM community, and, to discuss the issue/problem because it affects many people other than just myself.

As I said, this is not disagreement. This just seems to be a failure to understand one another here.

OK, i can concede that. Do you better understand my intent for this thread now?

 

[intothewoods]

*scratches head*

Like one of those ball thingys with the cylinder in it? Like ice+salt+cream+flavoring, and then we shake you up? Or do you just slow churn it yourself...

Oh never mind. I'm starting to seriously get creeped out. LOL

Oh, don't worry. The magic is really in our hearts.


Look, the joke went awry. Let it go, okay!

 

[intothewoods]

Perhaps we are talking past each other. But, i started this thread with the intent of discussing what i laid out in the original post as it applies to the BDSM community as i described it. If you want to discuss something else, that's fine with me - start your own thread. Otherwise, i think it would be a wonderful thing for us to stay on-topic, but, i'm just weird that way.




OK, keep reading, maybe you can understand. If you can't, oh well, i won't think any less of your intellect.




i don't think i said that. If i said something similar to that it was more like the idea of discussing how to change the non-BDSM society is off-topic for this thread.




If you truly believe that, then, i don't think you understand the value of having a "BDSM community", especially as a way to band together to protect our rights. In general society of the United States, there are laws that protect minorities. That is different from some elements of the BDSM community not respecting other elements of the BDSM community. Is that still comparing "apples to apples" to you?




i don't think that. Doesn't matter to me either way. On the other hand, you are the one who said:



You said it, not me.

Also, to me, this forum is part of the BDSM community as i see it. According to what you have said above, you view the BDSM community as something that is fairly well structured and organized. How do you view this forum? You are interacting with people who are not part of your close-knit real life BDSM group. As i see it, how you act here affects the BDSM community, granted only to a small degree (just like me). But, people like you and me eventually add up to a cumulative effect, and, that is what shapes a community. If a bunch of people disrespect female PYLs and male pyls, then, that is a problem for the community. And, recognition of that, coupled with a desire to work towards constructive change, leads some people to create threads on web site forums to discuss the issue. If you don't see things the same way, oh well, that's life.




Again, your suggestion would be off-topic for the thread. My purpose in starting the thread was *not* to find others in my personal real life like me to help me feel better. The purpose was to bring up something that happens in the BDSM community, and, to discuss the issue/problem because it affects many people other than just myself.




OK, i can concede that. Do you better understand my intent for this thread now?

I get what both of you are saying, but I am guessing I should stay out of it.

 

[subbie_333]

I get what both of you are saying, but I am guessing I should stay out of it.

LOL Nope, say something on-topic or hijack the thread. You wouldn't be the first or last to do either on this site