What's up everyone?

[Netzach]

That is plain idiocy. Not just unfair, but breathtakingly stupid as well.

If you haven't already seen it, you may appreciate this.

I do appreciate that.

However - I think it's something that people can multitask on to some degree though. I'm pissed about 8, but mostly because rich people can fast-track the immigration of a European, white, lover better than poor black lesbians can deal with immigration issues for a foreign born lover of color from a third world country. The rights that a lot of middle class people are wringing their hands over CAN be monied into existence - but that's NOT true for low income people and dispoportionately, GLBT people of color as the income lines go.

If you had parity between marriage and domestic partnership, this issue would be treated the same as marriage. It's currently NOT.

I'm pissed that, as she says, the very existence of people like her isn't even acknowledged in the GLBT mainstream until "we need something from you."

And I'm again even more pissed that this is being equated with race-based discrimination when the metrics and shape of it are MUCH more analagous to religious based discrimination when you are talking to someone who:

basically doesn't want to shoot you
but thinks it's your choice
and thinks your choice is wrong.

The argument needs to be about how a choice doesn't mean anything when you're simply talking about equal rights under secular laws. Christianity is a choice and it leaves them wrong in the eyes of muslims and vice versa. You may actually get somewhere thus.

Bludgeoning everyone over the head till the official black church pulpit position is "gay is genetic. marriage equals water fountain" is NOT right and it's what a lot of people seem to insist on.

 

[Marquis]

That is plain idiocy. Not just unfair, but breathtakingly stupid as well.

If you haven't already seen it, you may appreciate this.

So the main idea is what, black people are suffering too much to care about anyone but themselves?

 

[Netzach]

I know exactly what you mean.

It's an amazing feeling.

I know this may sound really ignorant or strange, but this has really changed how I feel about white people.

I don't think it's either of those things, ignorant or strange, to be suspect of white people - just because it sounds paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. I don't speak for white people, just me, and I *desperately* want to live in a world where people see one another, value one another, and are invested in each others' struggles because we all win big when the most crapped-on of us wins. I'm clearly not alone, but it's a recent development that white people who feel as I do may actually comprise a voting majority.

I hope the increased good will on basic levels snowballs and becomes something great and powerful that isn't going to go away even if Obama has a lukewarm presidential legacy (I don't think he will) because it's bigger than individuals.

I think we're going to have to guard it vigilantly. The division tactics are only going to get meaner and better and sharper and wider - I have a sneaking fear that the prop 8. mess is a salvo, an experiment by the antiquarian forces.

I feel guilty as hell for it taking this kind of moment for me to go "holy crap, the people in my community are a bunch of racists!" - there's something really sinister that came up from the dark.

I'm part of the problem though. It's racist of me to see it as "other people" when I didn't accept it as urgent all the time, every day.

I'm going to be a lot more worried about Trans murder rates than anything else in the forseeable future as the queer community goes, I think. They're appalling among low-income people of color, and white queers are too scared/stupid (for the most part) to go into the "other" bars and interact with people to know what can be done.

I keep hearing "no one should listen to me because I'm a white guy" - well, shit. You go hang out and people make you feel uncomfortable and like an asshole for a while at worst, or surprise you and dialogue with you at best - and you win their trust or you don't. Have we honestly completely forgotten how to do that? Are we SO defensive that when someone says "you're clueless" you can't say "you're right, but I do actually care and I'm willing to listen and change."

 

[Netzach]

So the main idea is what, black people are suffering too much to care about anyone but themselves?

No, it's that there are kitchen table issues in the AA community that white queers don't even SEE until they're like "why didn't these people scratch OUR backs after all we DID for you! (handwring)*

 

[LilyBart]

I'm gonna take this opportunity to speak out in defense of white Americans. Not in the "look how many were benevolent enough to vote for an African American president" sense, but because a big chunk of white Americans voted for a brilliant, charismatic, calm, dignified, and profoundly decent man who also just happens to be African American.

Hillary and Bill Clinton spent countless hours fervently trying to convince superdelegates that a black man could never win sufficient white votes to carry key states like Ohio and Pennsylvania. Pundits blathered incessantly about the Bradley effect throughout the entire month of October. "White people couldn't possibly be supporting a black guy in such huge numbers; they must be lying," they said. And on election night and every day since, without a trace of hyperbole, virtually every talking head or man on the street has declared: "I never thought this would happen in my lifetime."

There were multiple reasons for that skepticism, some more valid than others. But on Tuesday, millions of white Americans disproved those insulting generalizations.

Obama won a higher percentage of white voters than any Democratic candidate since 1976 - 46% of white women voters and 41% of white men. More than 40 million white Americans walked into the privacy and anonymity of the voting booth, and cast their presidential vote for an African American man. Yes they could, and yes they did.

Does this mean that racism is gone? Of course not. But I'd say it's time to start treating those watermelon jokers like the marginalized, anachronistic whack jobs that they have clearly become.

JM.
You are very right about the campaigning piece. Perhaps, though, I am naive in some ways. I grew up in a pretty tolerant community. Moved to a pretty intolerant community (southern US), and then out West. My exposure to real prejudice was limited to the few years I spent in the South.

I suppose I like to think that my generation, or younger, is more open-minded.

The people at this party are people I have always parried with on politics. Last night was the first time I saw race come up. I was sad and disgusted.

We are a global leader. The lack of peace in the world today is mainly due to intolerance, IMO. If we can't be tolerant at home...we sure as hell can't be guiding the rest of the world.

I am still depressed.

~LB

 

[LilyBart]

I'm gonna take this opportunity to speak out in defense of white Americans.

One more thing...

What, exactly, is the definition of a "white American?'

Seriously...we are supposed to be a melting pot. How do we define an American?

Just a little fodder, I guess...

~LB

(I will get off my horse now and get ready for bed, I think.)

 

[rida]

One thing that left a strong impression in me when visiting the US is when I went to see a Doctor and on the form I had to fill out my ethnicity. In all my life I had never once had to and after much thinking I chose "other".

I have kidlets now. One could check the "white" box and nobody would bat an eye but the other could probably get questioned.

 

[Homburg]

One thing that left a strong impression in me when visiting the US is when I went to see a Doctor and on the form I had to fill out my ethnicity. In all my life I had never once had to and after much thinking I chose "other".

I have kidlets now. One could check the "white" box and nobody would bat an eye but the other could probably get questioned.

In the medical field, it sometimes makes sense. An example would be my dad. Years ago, the guy what owned the company that he worked for came down with some form of cancer, and needed a bone marrow transplant. Said guy was a likable chap, and no one in his family was compatible for some reason, so a load of the folks that worked for him went and got tested for compatibility. There was some fee for the test, but when dad listed his ethnicity as "Asian", they asked him what sort. He explained that he is half-Japanese, and they waived the fee. It seems that there are very few Japanese people on the list as possible donors in this area, so they were glad to find him. Apparently ethnicity is a major additional determinant insofar as compatibility is concerned on these sort of transplants.

 

[rida]

In the medical field, it sometimes makes sense. An example would be my dad. Years ago, the guy what owned the company that he worked for came down with some form of cancer, and needed a bone marrow transplant. Said guy was a likable chap, and no one in his family was compatible for some reason, so a load of the folks that worked for him went and got tested for compatibility. There was some fee for the test, but when dad listed his ethnicity as "Asian", they asked him what sort. He explained that he is half-Japanese, and they waived the fee. It seems that there are very few Japanese people on the list as possible donors in this area, so they were glad to find him. Apparently ethnicity is a major additional determinant insofar as compatibility is concerned on these sort of transplants.

I understand the medical relevancy of it, especially when it comes to the example you posted and when checking for some serious illness (some genetic pool have higher chances of certain diseases). But it is honestly something that could be addressed when necessary. Not when you go get checked for pink eye.

It didn't bother me. It is just that I never had to check my ethnicity before in my life and for the first time I had to stop and pause and think about it.
And wondered how can you forget about race when you are reminded of it at each step? I can you feel like you are all just American when you have to pick and underline your difference ethnicity constantly?

 

[JMohegan]

JM.
You are very right about the campaigning piece. Perhaps, though, I am naive in some ways. I grew up in a pretty tolerant community. Moved to a pretty intolerant community (southern US), and then out West. My exposure to real prejudice was limited to the few years I spent in the South.

I suppose I like to think that my generation, or younger, is more open-minded.

The people at this party are people I have always parried with on politics. Last night was the first time I saw race come up. I was sad and disgusted.

We are a global leader. The lack of peace in the world today is mainly due to intolerance, IMO. If we can't be tolerant at home...we sure as hell can't be guiding the rest of the world.

I am still depressed.

~LB

I agree with you that fighting against bigotry is still necessary, and well worth the effort. But my point is that the way we perceive and talk about the *scope* of prejudice actually has a significant impact on that fight.

Let's look at Pennsylvania. On the ground during the primary season, I was stunned by the overt racism that seemed so pervasive in that state. People who would calmly tell the stranger at their front door, "I'll never vote for a nigger" - without a trace of embarrassment or remorse.

Looking back on it, I can acknowledge that overt racists comprised a very small percentage of the doors on which I knocked. But the shock value of their unabashed hatred overwhelmed all sense of proportion. Not just with out-of-state visitors, like me, but with their own neighbors as well.

The #1 message I heard from PA Democrats, just before their primary, was frustration and anger. "What the hell is the rest of the country thinking, voting to make Obama the nominee? This is the most important election in our lifetime, and a black guy will never, ever win."

In the Pennsylvania primary, Obama won just 35% of white Democrats. He lost every single subset of the white demographic - even the 18-29 crowd.

A friend of mine called this "the insidious white bigotry of low expectations for ourselves." The self-fulfilling prophecy of failure which may not, after all, be grounded in fact. With regard to Pennsylvania, I'm as guilty of this as anyone else. Just days before the general election, I responded to Marquis' question about the Bradley effect by saying I worried about this, specifically, in PA. I worried a lot.

Fortunately for Obama fans everywhere, his Pennsylvania primary loss came too late to alter the outcome. Math being math, his pledged delegate lead was insurmountable. And Democrats being Democrats, the superdelegates rebuffed Clinton's dire warnings about racism in the general election and decided to run with the dream.

On the 3rd of November, Nate Silver reported that Obama was up by an average of 9 points in the Pennsylvania polls. The next day, he took that state by 11. He won 85% of white Democrats, 56% of white Independents, and 12% of white Republicans.

I can't ask you to stop being depressed about the loud-mouthed bigots in your midst, but I *can* ask you to consider that focusing too much on their bigotry, rather than the evidence of waning bigotry elsewhere, grants the watermelon jokers a power you may not want to give.

All those scary McCain/Palin rally people haven't vanished or been magically cured. But they HAVE been outvoted, by a margin of at least 53 to 46 percent. And not every vote for McCain was racially based; there were valid reasons for a dissenting view - which means that the extent to which the haters have been marginalized is surely much higher. I say it's time to start regarding them as such.

 

[JMohegan]

One more thing...

What, exactly, is the definition of a "white American?'

Seriously...we are supposed to be a melting pot. How do we define an American?

Just a little fodder, I guess...

~LB

(I will get off my horse now and get ready for bed, I think.)

In the exit polls, a "white American" is anyone who reports themselves as such.

 

[JMohegan]

I know exactly what you mean.

It's an amazing feeling.

I know this may sound really ignorant or strange, but this has really changed how I feel about white people.

It doesn't sound ignorant or strange at all. And yes, this is amazing.

After so many months of back & forth over Iraq, health care, taxes, the economy, presidential temperament, and so on, somewhere in the middle of October the enormity of what was actually happening finally sunk in for me. Either the polls were right, and we were on the verge of an extraordinary victory that would transcend the immediate politics of the day. Or the polls were wrong, and our worst fears would be realized in a really ghastly way.

To me, it seemed as if an election that really was *not* about race became ALL about race on the 4th. I don't live in a swing state, so I had to travel out of town to do my GOTV bit. You could take the sum total of emotional interaction with strangers from the first 50 years of my life, and it wouldn't come close to the exchanges I had in any given hour on election day.

 

[Kajira Callista]

KC!!!!

What's going on sweets?

Lots of things. No fun bdsm type things but lots of other fun important life and mind expanding things. *shrug*

 

[JMohegan]

I understand the medical relevancy of it, especially when it comes to the example you posted and when checking for some serious illness (some genetic pool have higher chances of certain diseases). But it is honestly something that could be addressed when necessary. Not when you go get checked for pink eye.

It didn't bother me. It is just that I never had to check my ethnicity before in my life and for the first time I had to stop and pause and think about it.
And wondered how can you forget about race when you are reminded of it at each step? I can you feel like you are all just American when you have to pick and underline your difference ethnicity constantly?

You mentioned that you're not American. I'd be interested to know which country you're in, how diverse it is, and how much mingling between races or ethnicities occurs.

America is a melting pot. I'd say that's our greatest strength. At the same time, many people work hard to maintain their own cultural identities - and I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. Nor do I see them as less American. I'd say that the goal is not to "forget about race," but to accept all races as equal in terms of potential and legitimacy in our society.

Of course, the attempt to segment our society is counterproductive in many contexts. But if you want to know what happens when an increasingly diverse country rejects classification altogether, take a look at France. The unintended effect of an absence of classification is an environment in which discrimination is allowed to thrive.

 

[Marquis]

Work is stressing me out yo.

 

[CutieMouse]

Figuring out how to go back to school is stressing me out, yo.

 

[rida]

You mentioned that you're not American. I'd be interested to know which country you're in, how diverse it is, and how much mingling between races or ethnicities occurs.

America is a melting pot. I'd say that's our greatest strength. At the same time, many people work hard to maintain their own cultural identities - and I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. Nor do I see them as less American. I'd say that the goal is not to "forget about race," but to accept all races as equal in terms of potential and legitimacy in our society.

Of course, the attempt to segment our society is counterproductive in many contexts. But if you want to know what happens when an increasingly diverse country rejects classification altogether, take a look at France. The unintended effect of an absence of classification is an environment in which discrimination is allowed to thrive.

I grew up in Northern Italy, in a quite homogeneous place as the one that stack out as different. Nobody pretended to ignore the difference but I never felt looked down and discriminated because of it. Only once a kid told me to go back where I came from and I told him that I didn't came from anywhere else.

The place is now much much less homogeneous and it is full of immigrants from many poorer country both in Europe and Africa, many of them illegal.

I'm all for keeping your cultural background and acknowledging diversity. I've always believed that tolerance is not ignoring the differences is accepting them. But I also believe that there is a need to respect the custom of where you move in.

As for what is going on in France, the problem of dealing with illegal immigrants and their effect on society is something I do not feel qualified to debate. There is the absurdity of deporting someone that has managed to integrate socially although failed to comply legally, but there is also the struggle with trying to get rid of the illegal criminals that knows that because of their illegal status they will just get deported and will be ready to move back in in a couple of months (happening in Italy all the time).

I didn't want to divert Marquis's thread but didn't want to look as if I was ignoring your question.

 

[JMohegan]

I grew up in Northern Italy, in a quite homogeneous place as the one that stack out as different. Nobody pretended to ignore the difference but I never felt looked down and discriminated because of it. Only once a kid told me to go back where I came from and I told him that I didn't came from anywhere else.

The place is now much much less homogeneous and it is full of immigrants from many poorer country both in Europe and Africa, many of them illegal.

I'm all for keeping your cultural background and acknowledging diversity. I've always believed that tolerance is not ignoring the differences is accepting them. But I also believe that there is a need to respect the custom of where you move in.

As for what is going on in France, the problem of dealing with illegal immigrants and their effect on society is something I do not feel qualified to debate. There is the absurdity of deporting someone that has managed to integrate socially although failed to comply legally, but there is also the struggle with trying to get rid of the illegal criminals that knows that because of their illegal status they will just get deported and will be ready to move back in in a couple of months (happening in Italy all the time).

I didn't want to divert Marquis's thread but didn't want to look as if I was ignoring your question.

Thanks for answering my question. If Marquis objects to the discussion, I trust he'll let us know.

I wasn't referring to illegal immigrants in my reference to France. You had asked how "can you feel like you are all just American when you have to pick and underline your difference ethnicity constantly?" I was trying to explain that "feeling American" and celebrating ethnic differences are not mutually exclusive. In addition, I was pointing to France as an example of the downside of NOT classifying *citizens* by ethnic group.

As noted in the article to which I linked, "it is illegal to count the number of black people, north Africans and other minorities in France, or classify people according to ethnicity - all people should be equally French with no differentiation, the theory goes. But in practice, the nation is not colour-blind. When France's black associations held their first annual meeting last year, American civil rights activists toured the run-down suburban housing estates and said discrimination reminded them of life in the US in the 1950s. One survey this summer found that three out of four companies preferred white to non-white workers. Black French students with African names have been advised to change their name to something "more French" when applying for jobs. Discrimination has reached such a level that last year the government decreed that companies with more than 50 employees should use anonymous CVs for recruitment."

Classification by ethnic group may seem divisive to non-U.S. observers, but the benefit of collecting these data is that progress toward integration and minority advancement can be tracked for every school, company, and government entity for which the data are kept. Which in turn means that lagging areas can be identified and potential remedies addressed.

On a related note, below is a celebration of Obama's victory - drawn by the cartoonist Jiho, of France.


http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/johnmohegan/jihooffranceobamawins.jpg

 

[JMohegan]

At a lot of my virtual left-wing watering holes blaming black people for the passage of Prop. 8 is the new meme.

I've been in fight mode with racist knee jerks since the morning after. For the little that's worth. I think I may need to get off my duff and do some work in the GLBT community again, this is UGLY shit. God, are zealous Mormons good at divide and conquer.

Nate Silver weighed in on that meme yesterday.

Prop 8 Myths.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Classification by ethnic group may seem divisive to non-U.S. observers, but the benefit of collecting these data is that progress toward integration and minority advancement can be tracked for every school, company, and government entity for which the data are kept. Which in turn means that lagging areas can be identified and potential remedies addressed.

But is creating an illusion through force and arrangement really successful integration, not to mention minority advancement? Often forcing people to accept something will create more diversity than acknowledging there is a difference and allowing it to be celebrated and appreciated by everyone. I must admit I was amazed at how easy and 'no big deal' it was to migrate to NL, compared to if we had attempted to do it the same way in Oz.

Catalina