What not to do: Examples

[AwkwardlySet]

For me, if someone describes something as "quality," I think of it as high. Like when someone talks about a slick shot in a soccer match and describes it as a "quality finish;" I know what they mean. I believe most modern English speakers would probably conclude the same thing, though I don't really know.

I'm not sure I differentiate between "popular" series and "quality" series, because in many cases I know that I am not the universal determiner of what a "quality" series might be. If that makes sense. I don't know if there is an objective standard of such things, and if there is? I don't care to know about it. My own subjective opinion of my own work is my de facto starting point. If others like it too? Well and good!

But I'm not all that comfortable critiquing the "quality" of others' work. I might not like it, but that merely means that I don't like it; it's not an objective claim about its overall quality (or lack thereof).

I understand your point, and yeah it is a slippery slope, but I would say there are many quantifiable things about literature and movies that can't be just a matter of taste.

 

[KeithD]

Isn't this one of those things where 'common use' changed the meaning of 'quality' (or added an additional meaning)? I thought 'choose quality over quantity' is a normal thing to say?

Can't help it when common use muddies up clarity--other than to try to be clearer in my own writing and usage.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't adapt my story line so others may like it; in that way, I only write for myself. I like the process of writing, and when it's done, I do enjoy reading the results. I do like to improve the technical aspect of my stories - if you do it, you better do it right - and also, I try to avoid nonsense, but I wouldn't change the content to attract more readers.

When a story is finished, I post it because I hope there are some others who may like it too. I really don't care if the majority doesn't. It isn't my job, you know. I don't depend on success.

I know I can never compete writing the most popular stories, and, to be honest, those stories don't seem to appeal to me either. I do try to bring something unique; one reason why some of my stories are (almost) unique, is probably, because no-one but me really cares about those subjects.

I don't disagree with this, which indicates to me that it's easy for the appearance of disagreement to overwhelm the reality of disagreement in these threads.

There's a vast middle ground between "I write for me alone and don't care what anybody else thinks, ever" and "I write only to please other people." I suspect most of us occupy that middle ground, somewhere. I know I do.

 

[XerXesXu]

Then quit complaining about how excruciating it is.

Try harder, much harder.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Eh really? Are expressions "quality time" and such just some exceptions? I am genuinely curious, being a non-native speaker. In my language saying quality something automatically means high quality something, and if you want to say the opposite, you have to say low quality something. When used as a noun, quality is neutral in my language, but when used as an adjective it means high quality. I assumed same applies in English

You assumed correctly. See e.g. Merriam-Webster for a cite which says the same thing you did: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/quality

The use of "quality" as an adjective is newer (still goes back to at least 1936!) and slightly colloquial, so I might avoid it if I was writing for an extra-formal audience. But it's very well established.

 

[yowser]

Don't hold us in suspense, or make us go find an ancient copy in a second hand bookshop - give us the definition!

I'll let BB chime in with a succinct quotation (if one exists - the whole book is an elliptical discourse on 'quality' and my memory lacks the detail necessary for completeness and accuracy) but here are a few places where the rough idea emerges:

What makes a sculpture have Quality? It isn’t the stone, and it’s not the sculptor. It’s what happens between them, out of which the sculpture emerges. “Between the subject and the object lies the value.”

But he also admits the difficulty of a handy definition:

Quality … you know what it is, yet you don’t know what it is. But that’s self-contradictory. But some things are better than others, that is, they have more quality.

My memory suggests that for him it is the unity of the effort that matters, the connection, the wholeness of the creation.

I also note that B-roads are helpful in understanding his thesis, but a bicycle as vehicle works as well as a motorcycle, just not a car.

 

[Voboy]

Try harder, much harder.

You brought it up, not me.

You complained, not me.

I'm merely pointing out hypocrisy. I don't need to "try" to do that, with some posters.

 

[XerXesXu]

You brought it up, not me.

You complained, not me.

I'm merely pointing out hypocrisy. I don't need to "try" to do that, with some posters.

Harder, harder.

 

[Comshaw]

LC68 expresses himself as trenchantly as ever, but he identifies a clear divide between writers on AH. There are those who’re self-validating and those who seek external validation. I’m in the former camp, I was brought up and educated that way, and, yes, lots of what I write will end up on my hard drive forever. I write, and always have, to sharpen my thoughts. Much of it is academic. All my published writing, before self-publishing, is in academic journals. Stories, and fiction, are just a more entertaining way to explore my ideas, and it’s become a pleasant hobby.

Clearly, many writers here seek external validation. That’s fine, but it can be excruciating to watch the way some writers torture data in the hope of extracting validation; and the way they can react to vulgar and abusive critics such as ‘anonymous’.

If you "write for yourself" and "selfvalidating" then why even post a story here when, by your own standard, it can be just as satisfying to keep it on your hard drive and the only person who sees it is you? I could see it if you made money off the story, but that doesn't happen here. So why? Sorry but you got this old mechanic confused and I'd appreciate being unconfused.

Well, we'll have to disagree on that. Most people see this cut in all aspects of life. I'm not Shakespeare, he was a professional writer, and the more he pleased the more money he made. I'm not an 'author', I'm a hobby writer, I write to articulate my own thoughts in a way that entertains me. I lose no money if it doesn't entertain others.

If you have high confidence that you can be better than you are, you were clearly not taught to be the best you can be and let others strive to be better than you.

Again you got me chasing my tail. To paraphrase what you said, If I have high confidence in my ability to improve in what ever endeavor I undertake, then I WASN'T taught to be the best I can be? Again please unconfuse me.

Don't waste your time convincing these old vultures. It's pointless.
They will never admit that the only reason they spent tens of thousands of hours writing was to get validation from strangers.
They delude themselves that they are entertainers. Ha!

There is a clear difference between publishing something so everybody can read it, yet still not caring what they thought about the story, and sticking the story in your drawer. One can enjoy just putting their work out there, and not caring what others think about it. I read readers comments and sometimes I get some useful feedback. That is great. That doesn't mean I really "cared" what that anonymous man or woman thought about my story. It is a good feeling to be appreciated even by some unknown people I suppose, but really caring about it... Life has taught me that whatever majority likes/approves/appreciates usually isn't of good quality, no matter if its literature, music, philosophy, politics, or religion. Why would I care what that same majority thinks? Once again, I care mostly what I think and I care what people whose opinion I value think, no matter if they are just some friends of mine, or some talented authors here on Literotica.

I didn't really believe LC when he said he only cared about his own opinion. I think he was just being argumentative. Everyone values someone's opinion. But I don't understand those who say they care what everyone thinks? I understand caring about being popular, as that is very important for an author who wants to sell his books, but does that author really "care" what those people think about his work, or is it just caring that people want to read and buy his books?

Hmmmm...anyone, let me repeat that ANYONE who posts stories on a website for free is seeking some kind of validation. It may not be the same thing I'm looking for or Joe over there, or Amy over there, but they are seeking some TYPE of validation. I'll put it plainly as I can, anyone who posts stories here and says they don't care what the readers think of it is either delusional or a liar. There is no other explanation for posting free stories on a site and allowing others to read, rate and comment on them. If there is I challenge anyone who disagrees to show to, post it, explain it.

Comshaw

 

[KeithD]

Why this insistence to define why anyone posts stories or anything else to the Internet? What need does one have to have to determine that for everyone else? I posted stories to this site initially to have them stored someplace other than my computers. That's not from some dying need to be stroked by readers. Others can have their own reasons for doing so--and it's not really anyone else's business what that is, nor does anyone else have any control over what it might be.

 

[lovecraft68]

That’s fine, but it can be excruciating to watch the way some writers torture data in the hope of extracting validation; and the way they can react to vulgar and abusive critics such as ‘anonymous’.

On one hand, stats are the payment here so I get why they're important. I think they're important to everyone at the start in the way that everything new is fresh and exciting.

But as time goes on, some realize that for many reasons discussed many times here, the numbers aren't very good indicators of anything quality wise. Others, however become so fixated on them I believe it becomes stifling and detrimental to their writing. They're writing for the score and votes, not creatively.

I had a year plus of writing on here before I ventured into the forums and looking back I'm glad for that. At the time I was writing a long dark brother sister series that had high scores, but few readers because of the depressing content, but I figured it was more important to hold true to my vision.

Had I come here first, I'd have been exposed to the constant 'importance' of numbers numbers numbers and that's the goal here. Would that have changed my writing? Maybe not, I tend to do my own thing, but I can see where it can affect people and get them to go for formula over creativity.

 

[drobert44]

I've been pleasantly surprised by how many mistakes I make yet still get people saying they love my stories. And that includes an "It was all a dream" twist (to be fair, I didn't see it as a "gotcha" twist because it was literally laid out as a dream in the title...) and romance stories that completely ignore normal acceptable content boundaries for the genre.

Statistically, with all the fuckery I put into them my stories should be tanking. I don't think I'll ever actually understand why they aren't.

Normal acceptable boundaries? This is............Lit.

 

[drobert44]

Most romance readers aren't super fond of public displays of sexuality, prostitution of a partner (without her consent but not unwilling), or promiscuity from the leading lady.

True, but Lit romance readers probably go for more graphic themes......

 

[lovecraft68]

Most romance readers aren't super fond of public displays of sexuality, prostitution of a partner (without her consent but not unwilling), or promiscuity from the leading lady.

Every category has its 'squicks' sometimes it takes using one of them to realize what they are.
I found out when I first started, rough AF BDSM style sex isn't exactly what people wanted in I/T. One memorable e-mail stated "That sir, is no way for a loving brother to treat his beautiful sister!"
Banging your sister...thumbs up. Roughly banging your sister, thumbs down...O.....kay

 

[DarkSollat]

I have been reflecting lately on one of my older stories with a score (4.12) significantly lower than most of my others, and considering all the things that I did with this story that resulted in the lower than expected response from readers. For reference, the story is One Friday In February.

First of all, the most obvious and glaring mistake was for me to post it in the Loving Wives category. It was immediately pounced on by the incels that lurk in that category whose comments prove that they have the reading comprehension skills of a porta-potty. Erotic Couplings or even Romance might have been better choices for me.

In hindsight, another mistake was being too abstract for the intellectual level of the readers, regardless of the category. The two main characters meet on, and embark upon a torrid sexual affair held each Valentine's Day that falls on a Friday for 39 years. Vague references are made about their marriages, jobs, and other details of their lives during this time span, but their sexual exploits together on these special Friday Valentine's days are the core of the plot. These are their special times together as lovers and their respective spouses appear to accept that fact. While it is revealed at the end that these two characters have been married to each other for all these years and view their special day as an escape for them as unencumbered lovers, this fact was lost on the majority of readers who chose to leave a comment.

So, my question is, what mistakes have you discovered in hindsight relative to one of your stories? It could be the category chosen, the character development, the POV used to tell the tale, or anything else. I think more importantly, what did you learn from it?

Nicely done! You managed to complain about and maybe even offend some of your readers, all disguised under a title suggesting helpful discussion. And others followed the same path!

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I'm not much better than this guy. Like the unfortunate in LW who come to the sharing category to fight against extramarital fun. I go to the I/T category and bash the commenters who demand that a story of incest between first-degree relatives end in pregnancy. I'm freaking out about it.

"There is no fantasy in the world," I shout, "that would justify the birth of such a genetically defective baby."

"Relax", they answer, "it's just a fantasy".

I know they are right but still repeat myself with the same argument as a broken clock.

I once sent the writer a private message threatening that if he introduces a pregnancy in the next chapter, I will boycott him...like he gave a fuck.

To be fair, the chances of genetic problems from a one-off pairing of siblings is very low, especially when they are young adults. It's only repeated reproduction from a small gene pool that leads to problems.

The incest readers have an odd relationship to reality - either all very sweet vanilla sex, or dom-sub filth of the most unrealistic kind, but a one-night-stand just isn't enough apparently, even if it makes the story actually vaguely believable. I don't think I can write for them again, even if getting 10x the views and votes of most of my stories was tempting once.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm not much better than this guy. Like the unfortunate in LW who come to the sharing category to fight against extramarital fun. I go to the I/T category and bash the commenters who demand that a story of incest between first-degree relatives end in pregnancy. I'm freaking out about it.

"There is no fantasy in the world," I shout, "that would justify the birth of such a genetically defective baby."

"Relax", they answer, "it's just a fantasy".

I know they are right but still repeating myself with the same argument like a broken clock.

I once sent the writer a private message threatening that if he introduces a pregnancy in the next chapter, I will boycott him...like he gave a fuck.

I don't delve into the pregnancy fetish. In my long series I stated early on the brother had a Vas because he never wanted to make another one like him and his father(who died in an asylum). I doubled down in another chapter mentioning the sister couldn't have children. I wanted to stave off the constant, they should have a baby comments.

 

[lovecraft68]

To be fair, the chances of genetic problems from a one-off pairing of siblings is very low, especially when they are young adults. It's only repeated reproduction from a small gene pool that leads to problems.

The incest readers have an odd relationship to reality - either all very sweet vanilla sex, or dom-sub filth of the most unrealistic kind, but a one-night-stand just isn't enough apparently, even if it makes the story actually vaguely believable. I don't think I can write for them again, even if getting 10x the views and votes of most of my stories was tempting once.

I noticed that rough sex is far more tolerable in father daughter stories which I find as yet more motivation in my stories to make the daughter the aggressor.

In an experiment a few years back, I did two bondage stories. One the father finds the daughter bound and has his way with her-of course she warms up quick, I didn't want a non con piece. Then did one a few months later with the mother bound and the son comes in and helps himself(again with Mom putting up a few token, you can't do this, but well...."

The Mom/son received more than a few comments about it being NC, the father daughter? That one led to a disturbing e-mail about how he had to tie his daughter down "the first few times" and none of the comments claimed it was rapey.

So...its okay to assault your daughter, but not your mom?

Got some skewed morality going on in a rather immoral fantasy.

 

[SimonDoom]

I found out when I first started, rough AF BDSM style sex isn't exactly what people wanted in I/T. One memorable e-mail stated "That sir, is no way for a loving brother to treat his beautiful sister!"
Banging your sister...thumbs up. Roughly banging your sister, thumbs down...O.....kay

Yep. I love this aspect of the Lit readership. Once you "get" it, reader reaction starts to make more sense.

My version of this was the mom-son incest story where mom fingered her asshole and the reader complained that no self-respecting mom would do that.

 

[lovecraft68]

Yep. I love this aspect of the Lit readership. Once you "get" it, reader reaction starts to make more sense.

My version of this was the mom-son incest story where mom fingered her asshole and the reader complained that no self-respecting mom would do that.

Those are classic. Mom can blow and fuck her son, but only a real whore would touch her ass!
I get comments on how my 'moms' shouldn't engage in dirty talk, a mother wouldn't do that.
I imagine a mother wouldn't fuck her son either, but I guess she can as long as she isn't a potty mouth