What is virginity?

[Eilan]

It's a simple question, really.

Or is it?

 

[EJFan]

well... it's only a simple question if you choose to make it one. my personal belief is that if you're splitting semantic or physical/biological hairs, then you're trying too hard to make a point that no one really cares about.

you're a virgin, IMO, if you haven't had sex... but what's sex? to me, genital manipulation of any kind between two people is sex. i include oral, anal, manual, PIV and whatever else there is in this. so, yeah, it's a simple question in my mind.

 

[Guest]

 

[adina5]

How bout that

I've always considered the actual penis in vagina sex, and then everything else has an asterick after it. Probably a leftover of growing up in the wa~ay too Christian south. So by my definition, I'm still a virgin. Unless we're counting vibrators in which case, i'm not.


I always like reading different definitions. I've found that people with a conservative upbringing (regardless of how they are now) tend to have the most astericks over sex acts.

 

[Guest]

 

[silverwhisper]

insofar as virgin is a useful term*, i use it solely to refer to someone who has not experienced PIV sex.

ed

*i don't believe it particularly is, but that's a funciton perhaps of how i use the word.

 

[midwestyankee]

When I was in high school we often used the term "technical virgin" for anyone who had experienced a sexual act such as cunnilingus or fellatio but who had held off on PIV intercourse. It was a time when Judaeo-Christian beliefs about the "worth" of a woman being related to her virginity were commonly held, even among adolescents. Of course, the so-called sexual revolution of the late 60's and early 70's took care of much of that.

What's fascinating these days is that young people seem to have held onto this attitude to some degree. It seems to be much more common for young people to engage in oral sex early in a relationship and save PIV intercourse for later, when they know that they are more serious about each other.

 

[Eilan]

Ass is the new pussy.

 

[Recidiva]

Bodily state and emotional state.

You can be very physically experienced but still an emotional virgin.

You can be very emotionally experienced but still a physical virgin.

I'd associate this with a certain amount of surprise or revelation a person will experience in an emotional or physical situation.

So there are lots of levels of virginity. You're no longer a virgin when you're no longer surprised by what an experience will bring.

 

[EJFan]

i think the term virgin was really intended to mean sexually pure... not just the intact-hymen sort of technicality. that's why i said that it depends on how you define it. once shit like this gets based on technicalities, there's really no point to it.

either you've had a physical relationship with someone or you haven't... it's not about, "well, i had a penis in my vagina but only the head" or "i've never had a penis in my vagina but i use a vibrator every hour" or "my hymen broke riding a horse when i was 8" or "my penis has been in her ass and mouth but since it's never been in her pussy i'm still pure."

 

[Norajane]

It's a simple question, really.

Or is it?

Virgins are sexually inexperienced, with no PIV (and no PIAss, either ) sex. Oral sex is one of those technical virginity things: while technically there's no PIV, you're not inexperienced if you've been giving each other oral. So the spirit of virginity isn't there, but you can tell mom that you're still a virgin.

I think it also matters who and why they're asking, or remaining virginal. If it's a religious, or moral thing, then doing everything but PIV is a cop-out. You're creating loopholes and, to me, it means you haven't embraced the principles of virginity. If you want to wait to have PIV until you're secure in the relationship, then everything but makes more sense as a gradulal build-up to PIV.

 

[Guest]

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Frankly, having had a long time when I was younger that I was a virgin, I think that parents and some men (and some neo-feminist women) overrate chastity. For me, it was a state of "not doing" something, a state of inactivity. That's not exactly something that I cared for. I lived like a monk. I can definitely say that it wasn't for me. Beat up on me or criticize me all that you want, but this neo-Victorian emphasis on celebrating virginity lately strikes me as pointless. Been there, done that.

 

[EJFan]

...but this neo-Victorian emphasis on celebrating virginity lately strikes me as pointless. Been there, done that.

it amazes me how some of the feminazi type women embarce philosophies that were begun in the victorian age... a time when men embraced/created these values to keep women "protected" from societal cruelty.

one of life's silly ironies.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

it amazes me how some of the feminazi type women embarce philosophies that were begun in the victorian age... a time when men embraced/created these values to keep women "protected" from societal cruelty.

one of life's silly ironies.

Still don't see what is "cruel" about fucking someone.

 

[EJFan]

Still don't see what is "cruel" about fucking someone.

well, if it was ME doin' it it would be.

 

[Norajane]

Still don't see what is "cruel" about fucking someone.

If we're talking Victorian age, they prized virginity in a woman primarily because she became property of her husband, and husband wanted to make sure she wasn't carrying anyone else's child already. A woman who had already fucked was considered 'damaged goods' and not likely to find a husband to own her and thus offer his protection (food, shelter, status, etc.)

These days, I wouldn't say there's any cruelty in fucking, but maintaining virginity isn't a bad plan until someone is emotionally and intellectually mature enough to handle all the responsibilities of sex. There are also lots of you people having sex for the wrong reasons, i.e. , to fit in, to get or hold someone's affection, to prove to themselves that they are worthy of attention/affection/love, and on and on. In those cases, waiting to have sex until you've figured out that fucking doesn't validate who you are is also a great idea.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

If we're talking Victorian age, they prized virginity in a woman primarily because she became property of her husband, and husband wanted to make sure she wasn't carrying anyone else's child already. A woman who had already fucked was considered 'damaged goods' and not likely to find a husband to own her and thus offer his protection (food, shelter, status, etc.)

These days, I wouldn't say there's any cruelty in fucking, but maintaining virginity isn't a bad plan until someone is emotionally and intellectually mature enough to handle all the responsibilities of sex. There are also lots of you people having sex for the wrong reasons, i.e. , to fit in, to get or hold someone's affection, to prove to themselves that they are worthy of attention/affection/love, and on and on. In those cases, waiting to have sex until you've figured out that fucking doesn't validate who you are is also a great idea.

Interesting approach. However, maturity is often subjective, and sometimes a crash course in it is not such a bad idea. Sheltering is often harmful. Also, ARE there WRONG reasons to have sex? I doubt it. A person's body is their own and whatever reasons they have are up to them, IMO. We may frown on arranged marriages, but some people choose to go along with them, even today. Who are we to say that they shouldn't co-operate with their parents, if they wish, rather than wait 8 or 9 years for a relationship based on romance that might not deliver. That's a personal choice.

 

[Munachi]

well, if a 12 year old girl has sex with her 18 year old boyfriend so he won't leave her and she won't lose her the cool status she acquires through him at school, i am not so sure it's the right reason, for example.

as for arranged marriages - true, i heard some stories of people who saw at least some aspects of it as an advantage...

i guess it depends on cultural context and all that as well...

-

anyway, virginity. i am never quite sure of that. oral sex is sex - else it wouldn't be called sex, right? but on the other hand, someone who had just oral sex, nothing else, i would still think of them as a virgin.

 

[wicked woman]

Virgins are sexually inexperienced, with no PIV (and no PIAss, either ) sex. Oral sex is one of those technical virginity things: while technically there's no PIV, you're not inexperienced if you've been giving each other oral. So the spirit of virginity isn't there, but you can tell mom that you're still a virgin.

I think it also matters who and why they're asking, or remaining virginal. If it's a religious, or moral thing, then doing everything but PIV is a cop-out. You're creating loopholes and, to me, it means you haven't embraced the principles of virginity. If you want to wait to have PIV until you're secure in the relationship, then everything but makes more sense as a gradulal build-up to PIV.

I like these ideas. While I'd agree with the technical virgin idea, it really bothers me when people ignore the 'spirit of virginity' as Norajane says and think they can do everything but PIV and still be a virgin. Some of them are more experienced than others (albeit conservatives) who have been in a long term sexual relationship. It partially stems from my personal belief that oral and anal sex are much more intimate than PIV so I have difficulty thinking of someone who has experienced these as virginal.

 

[Typo Fu Master]

You're no longer a virgin when you're no longer surprised by what an experience will bring.

I think this pretty much sums it up. The state of being a virgin is "never did this before." It's not just a physical thing.

 

[Norajane]

Interesting approach. However, maturity is often subjective, and sometimes a crash course in it is not such a bad idea. Sheltering is often harmful. Also, ARE there WRONG reasons to have sex? I doubt it. A person's body is their own and whatever reasons they have are up to them, IMO. We may frown on arranged marriages, but some people choose to go along with them, even today. Who are we to say that they shouldn't co-operate with their parents, if they wish, rather than wait 8 or 9 years for a relationship based on romance that might not deliver. That's a personal choice.

Well, I'm not proscribing this as a plan for everyone or anyone. I'm just saying it's not a bad idea to hold off until you've gained some maturity. It still remains your choice as to when that time is (hopefully with some parental guidance for teens).

As for wrong reasons, I get what you're saying - making choices about when and how and what to experience sexually is part of the growing/learning process, and who is anyone to say any reason is wrong for anyone else. Some choices are smarter than others, though, and the not-so-smart ones are the ones I'd label wrong...I listed a few. Wrong reasons also includes the coercive, abusive, violent, manipulative or cheating reasons.

 

[Natasha667]

I've always considered the actual penis in vagina sex, and then everything else has an asterick after it. Probably a leftover of growing up in the wa~ay too Christian south. So by my definition, I'm still a virgin. Unless we're counting vibrators in which case, i'm not.


I always like reading different definitions. I've found that people with a conservative upbringing (regardless of how they are now) tend to have the most astericks over sex acts.

Ain't it the truth, honey.
by your definition and mine, same here. (except the dildo part, i stick to a nice clit massage)

 

[TBKahuna123]

OK what is virginity...

Well this is tough to say, but I would say anything that doesn't include PIV(or anal) sex. Maybe this is just a left over view of a bygone era, I don't know, but that's what it's always meant to me. Of course, you're also talking to the guy who had sex before he got his first blowjob, but hey what can I say. It was a different era.

Of course the girl I lost my virginity to was way less experienced sexually than I was. I'd done a lot of exploring, a lot of learning. While she had technically had sex once before, she really had no idea what sex was or what to do. Sadly typical I think, she was there but wasn't really involved. Interstingly enough she considered out first encounter to be when she lost her virginity, because it was the first time she was emotionally engaged in the sexual act. Maybe that means something in this discussion.