What is topping from the bottom?

[Spinoza]

I ask because I see that thrown around, by self identified subs who seem intent on doing exactly what they are accusing others of. I think in the larger picture it requires what being a sub means.

 

[Daddyslilbbw]

It means you are in control even though you are the recipient of the action rather than the giver of it. It is the exact opposite of being submissive

 

[Blue]

______

 

[CoercedAnon]

just wanted to weigh in to say that my partner is happy to dominate, within guidelines we both agree on. is that topping from the bottom, or is that switching?
we play games of sexual submission and domination, but have equal input.
i am curious how you folks would label this.
(fwiw: we don't put too much emphasis on semantics, and are actively exploring...however, when i was not actively exploring i was very worried that i wasn't "submissive" because of x/y/z)

 

[CutieMouse]

"Topping from the bottom" tends (IMO) to involve more manipulation than communication.

Example of Topping From the Bottom-

PYL spanks me harder when I do X... I know he said he has a lot on his plate right now, but we haven't played in ages! I bet if I do X, he'll have to spank me!

pyl does X & gets a spanking
PYL is left wondering why X happened/resulted in a spanking, when he/she was very clear that he/she didn't have time or energy for that right now. But consistency & consequences are important, or the dynamic might suffer...

Example of NOT Topping From the Bottom -

You know when you do X? I really like that... Can we do that more?

Or-

When both parties (PYL/pyl) recognize the relationship involves a degree of playful/bratty behavior, and everybody is on board - but it's also perfectly okay to decline due to whatever reasons.

 

[CoercedAnon]

"Topping from the bottom" tends (IMO) to involve more manipulation than communication.

Example of Topping From the Bottom-

PYL spanks me harder when I do X... I know he said he has a lot on his plate right now, but we haven't played in ages! I bet if I do X, he'll have to spank me!

pyl does X & gets a spanking
PYL is left wondering why X happened/resulted in a spanking, when he/she was very clear that he/she didn't have time or energy for that right now. But consistency & consequences are important, or the dynamic might suffer...

Example of NOT Topping From the Bottom -

You know when you do X? I really like that... Can we do that more?

Or-

When both parties (PYL/pyl) recognize the relationship involves a degree of playful/bratty behavior, and everybody is on board - but it's also perfectly okay to decline due to whatever reasons.

I love you, lady. Always grounded, while still bring philosophical. thank you.

 

[SpunThings]

"Topping from the bottom" tends (IMO) to involve more manipulation than communication.

Example of Topping From the Bottom-

PYL spanks me harder when I do X... I know he said he has a lot on his plate right now, but we haven't played in ages! I bet if I do X, he'll have to spank me!

pyl does X & gets a spanking
PYL is left wondering why X happened/resulted in a spanking, when he/she was very clear that he/she didn't have time or energy for that right now. But consistency & consequences are important, or the dynamic might suffer...

Example of NOT Topping From the Bottom -

You know when you do X? I really like that... Can we do that more?

Or-

When both parties (PYL/pyl) recognize the relationship involves a degree of playful/bratty behavior, and everybody is on board - but it's also perfectly okay to decline due to whatever reasons.

I agree with all of the above.

Another example of not topping from the bottom is the submissive setting limits, and having equal input in the negotiation phase of the relationship. In that way the phrase is sometimes used by PYLs to manipulate and get what they want regardless of their partner's wishes.

 

[MeekMe]

'Topping from the bottom' is a very annoying phrase for me. I rarely see it used appropriately. It tends to put all the 'blame' on the pyl, but really the PYL also plays a part. The pyl can't top from the bottom if the PYL doesn't play along with it.

It's a phrase that I think breaks down communication. New people hear the phrase and worry that if they say what they want or need they are "topping from the bottom" and it's such a negative phrase that they would rather shut up than be happy.

I know I'm not really answering the question and instead just putting my opinion out there. I just hate the phrase and think it's not really helpful. It makes people fear communication, places blame on a pyl, and makes it seem like a PYL played no part in how things worked out.

This example:

PYL spanks me harder when I do X... I know he said he has a lot on his plate right now, but we haven't played in ages! I bet if I do X, he'll have to spank me!

pyl does X & gets a spanking
PYL is left wondering why X happened/resulted in a spanking, when he/she was very clear that he/she didn't have time or energy for that right now. But consistency & consequences are important, or the dynamic might suffer...

Strikes me as an inability to identify and execute a proper punishment. If spanking is enjoyable (and something the pyl craves) then why would it be used as a punishment to correct X? Sure, the pyl could have asked for a spanking and been denied (because the PYL can say no). But if they get enjoyment out of that and the PYL uses it as punishment, the PYL is at fault for choosing such a confusing punishment.

 

[Raingirl85]

'Topping from the bottom' is a very annoying phrase for me. I rarely see it used appropriately. It tends to put all the 'blame' on the pyl, but really the PYL also plays a part. The pyl can't top from the bottom if the PYL doesn't play along with it.

It's a phrase that I think breaks down communication. New people hear the phrase and worry that if they say what they want or need they are "topping from the bottom" and it's such a negative phrase that they would rather shut up than be happy.

I know I'm not really answering the question and instead just putting my opinion out there. I just hate the phrase and think it's not really helpful. It makes people fear communication, places blame on a pyl, and makes it seem like a PYL played no part in how things worked out.

This example:


Strikes me as an inability to identify and execute a proper punishment. If spanking is enjoyable (and something the pyl craves) then why would it be used as a punishment to correct X? Sure, the pyl could have asked for a spanking and been denied (because the PYL can say no). But if they get enjoyment out of that and the PYL uses it as punishment, the PYL is at fault for choosing such a confusing punishment.

100% agree with this, but wasn't sure how to phrase it so I didn't respond, thank you!!! My Dom and I both make an effort to satisfy the other sexually, and I don't think it makes him less Dom or me less sub that my satisfaction also matters in the relationship. We also BOTH enjoy my being a bit bratty, in fact, he loves it. It is very fun for both of us, and again, I resent when others imply that brattiness makes me less sub, or is manipulative 'topping from the bottom'. He is in control the whole time..if I "get away with" bratty behavior, it's because he is having his fun with it too and being a bit indulgent, when it comes down to it, he knows EXACTLY how to get me in line. I LOVE being spanked. Yesterday to punish me for something (wont get into it, but it was merited) he forbid me to cum during our play session, but kept taking me to the edge. His authority was so strong that I couldn't have disobeyed him even if I wanted to and as much as my body was desperate to. He has that strong a hold on me. It was torture and true punishment. So I can play bratty and "earn" spankings, but at the end of the day he has the power, he is absolutely the one topping. Just because our dynamic doesn't look like someone else's Master:slave type version doesn't make it less authentic as a D/s relationship, and the fact that my input matters doesn't mean I am calling the shots.

 

[MastersDelight]

100% agree with this, but wasn't sure how to phrase it so I didn't respond, thank you!!! My Dom and I both make an effort to satisfy the other sexually, and I don't think it makes him less Dom or me less sub that my satisfaction also matters in the relationship. We also BOTH enjoy my being a bit bratty, in fact, he loves it. It is very fun for both of us, and again, I resent when others imply that brattiness makes me less sub, or is manipulative 'topping from the bottom'. He is in control the whole time..if I "get away with" bratty behavior, it's because he is having his fun with it too and being a bit indulgent, when it comes down to it, he knows EXACTLY how to get me in line. I LOVE being spanked. Yesterday to punish me for something (wont get into it, but it was merited) he forbid me to cum during our play session, but kept taking me to the edge. His authority was so strong that I couldn't have disobeyed him even if I wanted to and as much as my body was desperate to. He has that strong a hold on me. It was torture and true punishment. So I can play bratty and "earn" spankings, but at the end of the day he has the power, he is absolutely the one topping. Just because our dynamic doesn't look like someone else's Master:slave type version doesn't make it less authentic as a D/s relationship, and the fact that my input matters doesn't mean I am calling the shots.

I love this ^^^^^ and I'm glad you're both having fun exploring and playing. I agree, there is no one size fits all in bdsm, and you should do what feels comfortable, natural, and most of all is fun and satisfies! Due to our kids our D/s relationship is very dl outside the bedroom but we find ways to play games. I too greatly enjoy spankings and other impact play. So punishment for me is typically denied orgasms or pleasing him without receiving, or sometimes he'll correct me then ignore me(the absolute worst).

Don't place so much focus and weight on the terms, sometimes things just don't fit into a pretty little box.

 

[Spinoza]

It means you are in control even though you are the recipient of the action rather than the giver of it. It is the exact opposite of being submissive

Thank you all for the reply, but I wanted to examine this. The fact of the situation is that in any sane consensual relationship the sub always has the ability to walk away, to decide this isn't what he or she wants. Hence subs always have control. I don't think that makes anyone less subbish.

The other thing, I'm considering, is if you enjoy being tied up and spanked, used by another I don't really think that makes you a sub. You just have a kink for being helpless and used sexually.

 

[SpunThings]

Thank you all for the reply, but I wanted to examine this. The fact of the situation is that in any sane consensual relationship the sub always has the ability to walk away, to decide this isn't what he or she wants. Hence subs always have control. I don't think that makes anyone less subbish.

The other thing, I'm considering, is if you enjoy being tied up and spanked, used by another I don't really think that makes you a sub. You just have a kink for being helpless and used sexually.

The dom has just as much power to walk away, so that reasoning is flawed.

 

[butterfly_flip]

Thank you all for the reply, but I wanted to examine this. The fact of the situation is that in any sane consensual relationship the sub always has the ability to walk away, to decide this isn't what he or she wants. Hence subs always have control. I don't think that makes anyone less subbish.

The other thing, I'm considering, is if you enjoy being tied up and spanked, used by another I don't really think that makes you a sub. You just have a kink for being helpless and used sexually.

It might not make YOU a submissive, but how others identify is entirely up to them.

To answer the OP, topping from the bottom, to me, signifies a lack of communication, and if a PYL can't see a pattern of that behaviour emerging, or allows it, then they're just as responsible as the pyl.

 

[SpunThings]

Thank you all for the reply, but I wanted to examine this. The fact of the situation is that in any sane consensual relationship the sub always has the ability to walk away, to decide this isn't what he or she wants. Hence subs always have control. I don't think that makes anyone less subbish.

The other thing, I'm considering, is if you enjoy being tied up and spanked, used by another I don't really think that makes you a sub. You just have a kink for being helpless and used sexually.

I enjoy being tied up and spanked AND I'm a submissive. I want him to decide whether he will tie me up, or spank, or just have a quickie, or no sex at all.

 

[cascadiabound]

I enjoy being tied up and spanked AND I'm a submissive. I want him to decide whether he will tie me up, or spank, or just have a quickie, or no sex at all.

Exactly this. The way one determines where the control lies determines who is the PYL vs the pyl not the activity per se. Any activity could be submissive OR could be dominant depending on the dyad and who is directing or controlling said activity.

 

[Mindfondler]

'Topping from the bottom' is a very annoying phrase for me. I rarely see it used appropriately. It tends to put all the 'blame' on the pyl, but really the PYL also plays a part. The pyl can't top from the bottom if the PYL doesn't play along with it.

It annoys me too, simply because it seems to be a contradiction in terms. "Domming from the bottom" makes sense to me as a legitimate and healthy dynamic, but I don't think that's the intended meaning. Is it supposed to be perjorative, along the lines of "back seat driver"?
.

 

[SpunThings]

It annoys me too, simply because it seems to be a contradiction in terms. "Domming from the bottom" makes sense to me as a legitimate and healthy dynamic, but I don't think that's the intended meaning. Is it supposed to be perjorative, along the lines of "back seat driver"?
.

Back seat driver is a good comparison.

 

[richard_daily]

To answer the OP, topping from the bottom, to me, signifies a lack of communication, and if a PYL can't see a pattern of that behaviour emerging, or allows it, then they're just as responsible as the pyl.

Have to politely disagree with this.

It seems to be common consensus that "topping form the bottom" is a bad thing, or that it "lacks" something, but for some, it's simply a style or even an identity.

Some people enjoy that sort of power dynamic, and having the bottom take charge in subtle or subversive ways.

Putting a negative spin on it, or using it as a put down is problematic. It wouldn't work for me, but neither do brats or many other mis-construed aspects of submission. I don't downgrade someone for being a brat or for topping from the bottom, as that is something that works in some dynamics and for some people.

 

[RawHumor]

Have to politely disagree with this.

It seems to be common consensus that "topping form the bottom" is a bad thing, or that it "lacks" something, but for some, it's simply a style or even an identity.

Some people enjoy that sort of power dynamic, and having the bottom take charge in subtle or subversive ways.

Putting a negative spin on it, or using it as a put down is problematic. It wouldn't work for me, but neither do brats or many other mis-construed aspects of submission. I don't downgrade someone for being a brat or for topping from the bottom, as that is something that works in some dynamics and for some people.

Exactly... and sometimes, in a new relationship, a bit of topping from the bottom can be part of communication (e.g. I like how you're slapping my ass, but I would REALLY like it if you used a paddle).

 

[divacarolina]

I'm a bit of a brat. I'm moody and needy and will manipulate you if let me.

But if I can manipulate you THAT much - you are probably not a good match for me. I'd prefer someone who can manipulate me right back.

Some self-proclaimed tops use 'topping from the bottom' to feel superior to the bottom, when the top is unable to get what they want from the bottom. In this case the wannabe top is often so focused on their own goals that they can't be bothered learning the bottom's desires. As others have hinted, when we bottoms knows we must behave to get attention, then we are more likely to behave. If misbehaving leads to fun times I will misbehave, and the hell with your ideas about how a well-trained sub acts.

To say someone 'tops from the bottom' is a form of slut shaming. It blames someone for behaving in a way that they enjoy and that harms no one, simply because it makes the speaker insecure.

To all the doms and subs who take pride in training stricter than anything in the US Marines, god bless you for doing your thing and creating some conventions for me to rebel against. Myself, I'd rather create some drama when i get fucked.

 

[CutieMouse]

To say someone 'tops from the bottom' is a form of slut shaming. It blames someone for behaving in a way that they enjoy and that harms no one, simply because it makes the speaker insecure.

I cannot begin to express how strongly I disagree with this.

If everyone is on the same page re: "no no don't throw me in that briar patch!", it isn't Topping From the Bottom; it's two like minded people enjoying the psycho-drama of sex. No harm; no foul.

But there really are instances when pyls non-consensually manipulate the shit out of their partners to get the kind of kinky sex they want, instead of using their words. And THAT is Topping From the Bottom.

If a PYL manipulated, ghosted, or non-consensually coerced a pyl to get what he or she wanted, instead of openly communicating their wants/needs, the kinky universe would implode with rage over what an abusive asshat the PYL was. Screams of "RED FLAG! RUN AWAY!" would come so hot & heavy the resulting windstorm would be reported on the nightly news.

Like I said, if both PYL and pyl understand the game being played, no biggie; not Topping From the Bottom. But manipulation is manipulation, and PYLs are just as vulnerable as pyls.

Own your shit, communicate, get on the same page and kink on.

 

[RawHumor]

Own your shit, communicate, get on the same page and kink on.

*sigh*

Have you decided to accept my ever-present marriage proposal yet?

 

[TinyMetalhead]

Own your shit, communicate, get on the same page and kink on.

^^^ This!

 

[Conager]

'Topping from the bottom' is a very annoying phrase for me. I rarely see it used appropriately. It tends to put all the 'blame' on the pyl, but really the PYL also plays a part. The pyl can't top from the bottom if the PYL doesn't play along with it.

It's a phrase that I think breaks down communication. New people hear the phrase and worry that if they say what they want or need they are "topping from the bottom" and it's such a negative phrase that they would rather shut up than be happy.

I know I'm not really answering the question and instead just putting my opinion out there. I just hate the phrase and think it's not really helpful. It makes people fear communication, places blame on a pyl, and makes it seem like a PYL played no part in how things worked out.

This example:


Strikes me as an inability to identify and execute a proper punishment. If spanking is enjoyable (and something the pyl craves) then why would it be used as a punishment to correct X? Sure, the pyl could have asked for a spanking and been denied (because the PYL can say no). But if they get enjoyment out of that and the PYL uses it as punishment, the PYL is at fault for choosing such a confusing punishment.

You can't do much of anything without the other party acceding, but that doesn't change the fact that topping from the bottom is something the submissive has chosen to attempt to engage in.

A PYL that either doesn't realize what is going on in the dynamic or does and simply allows it, does not somehow alter who actively did what.

Should the PYL maintain their intended frame and issue corrective action? Depends on whether they notice or care or not.

Plenty if "Doms" seem to think such a self declaration is an easy way to get laid how and when they wish.

Likewise, some submissives see the label as an attractant to get kinky things done to them in accordance with their fantasies.

Either you enjoy submitting, or you like control, or you like to mix and match.

 

[Conager]

I'm a bit of a brat. I'm moody and needy and will manipulate you if let me.

But if I can manipulate you THAT much - you are probably not a good match for me. I'd prefer someone who can manipulate me right back.

Some self-proclaimed tops use 'topping from the bottom' to feel superior to the bottom, when the top is unable to get what they want from the bottom. In this case the wannabe top is often so focused on their own goals that they can't be bothered learning the bottom's desires. As others have hinted, when we bottoms knows we must behave to get attention, then we are more likely to behave. If misbehaving leads to fun times I will misbehave, and the hell with your ideas about how a well-trained sub acts.

To say someone 'tops from the bottom' is a form of slut shaming. It blames someone for behaving in a way that they enjoy and that harms no one, simply because it makes the speaker insecure.

To all the doms and subs who take pride in training stricter than anything in the US Marines, god bless you for doing your thing and creating some conventions for me to rebel against. Myself, I'd rather create some drama when i get fucked.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with you tracking down and finding the king of all Domlyness to initiate a wrestling match with. Enjoy. But there's nothing even remotely submissive about what you're describing.

I think you confuse bottoming and masochism with submission. Just because you give in in the end doesn't mean you're a submissive. You don't have to be a submissive to enjoy those activities.