What do male writers think about females writing from a male perspective?

[Athalia]

This is a counterpart to the thread "What do female writers think about males writing from a female POV." I'm curious about it, because most of the writers here are male (or at least profess to be) and I often wonder if I've gotten male characters wrong. There are so many things that characterize the formation of a woman's character... menstruation, "male gaze," the biological clock, issues of body image, and so on and on... that males are sort of oblivious to, because it generally doesn't happen to them, at least to the extent that it happens to women. But when I leave those out, I don't have a male character, just a character who isn't female. The only thing I can nail for sure is that male orgasms seem to come on strong and then evaporate, while a woman's orgasms, when they happen at all, can go in waves. That's just biology. My editor is a male, so he sometimes has insights on the situation as he oversees my work.

What are the "tells" that a female author gives a male writer that allow him to say, "OK, that's got to have been written by a woman."?

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Very good question. Sometimes I wonder the same thing about my male characters.

Have them put a sports game on the TV while they stand in the garage over the open hood of their car with a beer in one hand as they scratch their balls with the other and spit.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Lack of physical detail, observation thereof, is the main tell, I've found. Women focus more on emotional description, forgetting (or not knowing) that men can be very visual creatures and sometimes a visual or tactile description is needed.

Mind you, what would I know? I've had more than one woman reader (including female writers) not realise I'm a male, after reading my work.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Agreed. A focus on emotional vs physical. That's an over-simplification, but it's close enough for the purpose. I suspect that very few men read Harlequin romances, for instance, and the term 'chick flick' speaks volumes. Jumping immediately into sex without any buildup or balance is a clue the other way, of course.

Not that it matters. A good writer will appeal to both sides. Someday I hope to get there.

 

[NotWise]

I've probably not read enough stories by women to generalize about the author's characterizations of men. It's not like we're all the same, you know? A characterization would have to be inconsistent or way out of bounds get noticed.

There's one thing I'd say in response to some comments above. Men aren't necessarily unemotional, but we may react differently and to different things then women do.

 

[TheRedChamber]

When a woman writes from a male perspective, it's usually still the case that she's writing a female (her) fantasy and she's writing the sort of man she'd like to be involved with. Same when men write as women. Sure we don't mind if the other gender reads our story and there can be something hot about finding out what the opposite sex finds hot. Still, there are things that women want from an erotic sort that men don't want and visa versa and it's that difference that often jumps out. We notice that the male character is chiselled and rugged, masculine but sensitive, successful but makes time, kind, caring and faithful despite being highly desirable for practically every woman in the world. As fantasy that's fine, just for men the fantasy of girl who will do things on a first date that would make a porn producer blush is fine. It's what people are here for.

There are stories where two amazing attractive people meet, flirt, fuck and either pass like ships in the night or maybe live happily ever after. They can be a lot better and a deeper than I'm making them sound, but they tend to be predicated on the spiciness and the uniqueness of the moment.

The problem for men (or at least me) often comes when you have the perfect man and the bland self-insert woman. The problem is the same regardless of the PoV things are written from, but there are a number of common features. One is the mind reading and path smooting - he's whisking her away to Hawaii as a surprise this weekend, no, he knows it's the busy season at work but he's already squared things away with her boss and she's be covered, and while she's there he'll excert exactly the right amount of gentle pressure to make her agree to go scuba-diving, which she'll love despite her misgivings but then later he'll listen to what she wants to do and, once they've climb the mountain and are sitting arm in arm at the top, he'll open up to her with a heartfelt story of how he overcame vertigo on a mountain as a child which he's never told anyone before, but he feels so connected to her.

There's two main problems with this from a man's point of view. First, is we read it and we remember all the times when we've tried to do something like that and it's backfired - don't you know it's my sister's baby shower this weekend, how dare you talk to my boss without my permission, people have actually died scuba diving you know... and so on. But no, our hero doesn't miss a beat. And that romantic scuba diving weekend definitely won't coincide with her monthly cycle. It's not that we non-fictional males never get it right, or don't try, it's just that this guy has a supernatural batting average and it making calls where we're thinking 'I don't know, that's a lot of money on a hunch...'

But more than this, for a lot of stories, we end up find ourselves wondering, if he's so great, why is he making all this effort on her? Typically he's so physically, romantically and emotionally attractive, surely he can have his pick of women and surely he knows this and a lot of the story don't really make a case for why he's suddenly enthralled with this one particular woman. She's nice, sure, beautiful even, you can assume once you read past her own body-image issues (which will be inserted even if we're reading from male PoV). There's nothing exactly wrong with her, but he's making all this effort and there's nothing that's leaping out at us saying she's special. And women will say, 'did you not read the scene on the mountain top, they have a deep emotional resonance' and men will go 'pffft'.

The thing is, men are told from an early age that they need to become 'worthy' - slay the dragon and marry the princess and the bigger the dragon the more beautiful the princess will be. Sexist? Well, maybe, but very few men can survive on looks alone and, even if you are super-attractive, it helps to have an extra string in your bow. On the other hand, women tend to be told that they already have 'worth' and they need not to sell themselves short - not necessarily find the most attractive or richest man, but at the very least find someone who recognized their worth. Attitudes are changing but I'd argue this is still prevalent in how a lot of romance is portrayed in fiction.

Take the She-Hulk TV series as a recent example. Jennifer Walters gets superhero powers and all the romantic drama is about how she wants men to want to see her as 'the real Jen' rather than just She-Hulk. Whereas all the male characters are like 'I have superhero powers now, this is really going to open up my options' - except when they have to maintain a secret identity to protect the ones they love and can't cash in their new found dragon-slaying skills. (The TV series is also based on the faulty premise that Tatiana Maslany wouldn't be able to find a decent Internet date even with a few false starts, but I digress...)

So, when reading fiction, men often struggle when the dragon and the princess don't match. If everythings too easy for him, well firstly we hate him for having it easier than us, but we have the suspicion that the hero should be out looking for a bigger dragon and there's actually a better princess in the next castle. On the other hand, if he's working really hard to make the relationship work and the we're not told why this woman is particular worth making the effort (emotional resonance be damned), then we're likely to see it as female fantasy.

In erotic fiction, we're often writing characters who basically are attractive and between whom there is an intial spark of attraction. If you're trying to write a more realistic story with more grounded characters, its worth remembering that while men tend to rate most woman as above average attractiveness (at least within an 18-30 age range), women tend to rate most men as below average attractiveness. For a lot of men, they are not used to the idea of women finding them attractive but they are also often surrounded by a lot of women they find at least quite attractive. And they're well aware that the more attractive they find a woman, the less likely it is that she will like them back. And if you are someone who is not instantly effortlessly attractive, charming or funny, then you may have to dedicate some time to trying to find some way to demonstrate your good qualities to exactly those women who are likely to be swayed by them - except a lot of men have no idea how to do that, especially without giving off the impression that you're desperate. The worst thing a woman can say to a man isn't 'no', it's 'ew'. So, I'd argue, that while a lot of men don't have 'body images' the same way women do, they do have 'self-worth images' they stuggle with, especially if they get knocked back a lot, or struggle to even make a move in the first place. And finally society really isn't good at helping with this. In fact, it's completely brutal towards men who had trouble finding a date.

I think a lot of women then are not good at writing these kinds of scenes where a man is trying to work out how and when to make a move. In an erotic story, often he's going at ask and she's going to say yes, but if there's not more of an element of nervous strategy, the main character goes straight back in the 'attracitve confident man' box - which again is what women like, but make us (inferior) men hate him at least a little.

 

[NotWise]

I was awake last night far more than I should have been, and found myself trying to remember the Lit stories I've read that were written by women. There are a fair number. When I first started writing for Lit I was very interested in how women wrote.

Of the woman-authored stories I remember, I can only think of one that was written from a man's POV. That's not much to go on, but I looked at it again to refresh my memory.

It was a good story from my perspective, and successful insofar as ratings are concerned. It was written in third person limited, and there wasn't anything wrong about the way he was written. In retrospect, two things stand out a little: the man was not in his usual physical, family, or social context, so aspects of his character weren't as developed as they could have been; and the man seemed "soft" in some situtations, without the sort of hard-edged reactions I might expect.

There's also a question of how women develop male characters when they're writing from a female character's point of view. The most common case I can think of is that the story focuses on the female character, and the male character isn't developed much beyond his role in the story; he may not be more than a name with a penis. The name is optional, but using one avoids overusing pronouns or simply using a title like "the pool boy" over and over. Actually, the penis is optional too, depending on the role the man plays in the story.

That's analogous to how some male writers portray women.

I should probably read in Romance more often. Maybe female writers there put more effort into developing male characters. I understand that quite a few of the stories in GM are written by women. That might be another place to look. Or maybe LW stories written by women. I don't normally read in either GM or LW.

 

[jehoram]

Not many female writers here, so there's a limited pool to choose from. But I agree mostly with what people have remarked about earlier.

In the actual sex, for most men it's all about the orgasm, and it's very localized to the penis and the moment of ejaculation. So if that comes across in the description, it's likely a man who's written it. If it focuses on other parts of the guy's body like nipples or waves of sensation that go on and on, it tells me that the writer isn't familiar with a guy's sexual response and hasn't read much erotica written by men.

But a lot of it is still good, in that it's good jerk-off material.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

I'm writing my first 1st person story from a man's point of view right now. Not all that far along yet. I have no idea how it will turn out. Being Interracial an and intended swing situation that goes wrong of the narrator I don't expect it to go over well. I mean, while I'm happy to be in the 3.5 range, I know it won't hit a 4 or higher. I've excepted that most of stories aren't going to score in the range of you guys. Still, I'm hopeful that I can write in way that a reluctant cuckold would tell the tale. Anyway, I'm hoping to finish it in the next few days and it to be up by Friday.

 

[lovecraft68]

Most men if asked this question and forced to answer honestly would say "It depends on if she's hot and how big are her boobs"

Men, even those who write, are still sex on the brain morons

 

[oggbashan]

How do you know whether a Lit author is male or female? I write as both.

 

[NotWise]

Some people here are claiming that male and female orgasms are biologically different, but they are not. Physiologically, they are the same, and we have known this since 1960s & 1980s studies onwards. [snip]

This is my understanding, as well.

I've read women (not fiction writers) giving detailed descriptions of their own orgasms. They're essentially the same as mine, and I usually describe them that way in my stories. Ejaculation is a difference because it focuses men's attention, but it's only part of the picture.

 

[Voboy]

How do you know whether a Lit author is male or female? I write as both.

This.

I don't care whether the person writing it is male, female, neither, or both. If it's well-written, I'll read it. If not, I won't.

Like I said in that other thread, any woman who's capable of writing convincingly from the standpoint of another woman is also capable of writing convincingly from the standpoint of a man. Or a werewolf. Or a vampire. Or a horse. Or whatever.

Good writing is good writing, and a good writer with imagination can pull off anything well.

 

[ElectricBlue]

How do you know whether a Lit author is male or female? I write as both.

That's what the OP is asking - are there any tells in style or approach to writing that might give one a clue as to the writer's gender? Not whether or not they announce themselves as x, y, or z.

 

[Voboy]

That's what the OP is asking - are there any tells in style or approach to writing that might give one a clue as to the writer's gender? Not whether or not they announce themselves as x, y, or z.

And in asking, OP is making a lot of assumptions I question:

1. That there exist any such tells.
2. That those tells would be used in the same way by every writer.
3. That those tells would be interpreted identically by every reader.
4. That every female writer somehow has some sort of collective unconscious that makes them even slightly monolithic.
5. That writers lack the imagination to detect such "clues" in their writing, and subvert them.

I could go on, but my main response is a sixth assumption:

6. That it matters in the slightest whether a woman writes from a male POV.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

Inexperienced male writers tend to describe women by bra and cup size. Women generally don't use such descriptions even when they have little experience. At least, that's my view. Men write about how it feels physically when describing sex, while women concentrate on emotions. I think men can (and do) write well from a woman's point of view, and women do the same. I hope I can write from the man's point of view. On one website on writing, I read that women use adverbs more frequently than men.

 

[ElectricBlue]

And in asking, OP is making a lot of assumptions I question:

1. That there exist any such tells.
2. That those tells would be used in the same way by every writer.
3. That those tells would be interpreted identically by every reader.
4. That every female writer somehow has some sort of collective unconscious that makes them even slightly monolithic.
5. That writers lack the imagination to detect such "clues" in their writing, and subvert them.

I could go on, but my main response is a sixth assumption:

6. That it matters in the slightest whether a woman writes from a male POV.

Yes, obviously these are valid points. But the premise of the discussion is valid, too. Nobody is saying these are universal things, but I think there are tells, broadly speaking; not quite as blindingly obvious as when a virgin teenager is writing their favourite fantasy, but tells all the same.

If writers discuss these things amongst each other, doesn't that make all of us better writers, by being aware of what might seem obvious, but obviously isn't? Keep in mind the OP is a female writer, who clearly is intrigued by the notion that, yes, there are tells, and she wants to know what the dead give-aways are.

I've co-written with a few women, and I'm forever saying, "Let's add a few visual details, shall we, to balance those intimate moments?" And when I've co-written with men, it's, "Let's get a little more intimacy here, this is going a little bit porn tropey."

Broadly speaking, I think one can usually tell, but of course there are writers where you think, not so sure. Does it matter? Not really. But it's better than talking about the under eighteen rule again, surely?

 

[oggbashan]

There are software programs that purport to be able to distinguish between male and female writers.

When I have used them, the results are not consistent. As oggbashan I can be classed as writing as a male or as a female., the same for jeanne-d-artois, although 'she' tends to be identified as female more often than oggbashan is. Of course, both are me.

I think the programs are a load of bollocks.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think it's great. Go for it!
I could say all the things others have already said about stereotypes, most of which have some truth. But the truth is we come in many flavors, and the less popular flavors have as much of a place in erotica as the popular ones.
I think if you concentrate on writing a good character, you can't go wrong.

 

[KeithD]

It's been said that most GM readers are female, so it would stand to reason that there would be successful female GM writers. I wouldn't know. I am male and write GM specifically for active GM guys. I don't read much of what anyone else writes in the genre, so I couldn't tell if it's written by a male or female. Actually, I don't think anyone can identify the actual writer's gender from a story too well--and a reader even less well.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think in general this is another thread full of over thinking. End of the day, who cares who is writing the story? If you read something and enjoy it, then find out the person who wrote it was the opposite gender you thought, do you suddenly not like it?

I'm aware there are men so insecure that the thought something a man wrote turned them on can give them "The gay", but I think that's a small number because anyone that uptight isn't reading much erotica to begin with.

Take the story at face value, and read it rather than read into it.

 

[lovecraft68]

but make us (inferior) men hate him at least a little.

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent"-Eleanor Roosevelt.

Authors do not need to tip toe around people's insecurities. If alpha males or women with model looks and porn star bodies, make you insecure as a man or woman, that's a you problem, not a story problem.

If your point is appeal, as in not every guy or woman looks like this or fucks like this...that can be a valid point in some genres, but this is erotica, people don't want cellulite thighs and dad bods, they want what they see on Pornhub in written form.

To go back to my last post, this is more than over thinking, now we're getting into projection. Just write it, just read it, be one with the smut and don't over analyze.

 

[lovecraft68]

And in asking, OP is making a lot of assumptions I question:

1. That there exist any such tells.
2. That those tells would be used in the same way by every writer.
3. That those tells would be interpreted identically by every reader.
4. That every female writer somehow has some sort of collective unconscious that makes them even slightly monolithic.
5. That writers lack the imagination to detect such "clues" in their writing, and subvert them.

I could go on, but my main response is a sixth assumption:

6. That it matters in the slightest whether a woman writes from a male POV.

For me personally, I think my tell as a guy writing as a woman is wardrobe. I'm not good at describing women's clothing. Simple things are easy, shorts, t-shirt....but getting into dresses and accessories is tough. I've even looked at my wife on a night out and thought, well, this is easy, how can I describe what she's wearing? But for some reason it's still some type of block.

 

[XerXesXu]

There are software programs that purport to be able to distinguish between male and female writers.

When I have used them, the results are not consistent. As oggbashan I can be classed as writing as a male or as a female., the same for jeanne-d-artois, although 'she' tends to be identified as female more often than oggbashan is. Of course, both are me.

I think the programs are a load of bollocks.

Perhaps these AI programs give us an unexpected insight. In my days in Cognitive Science, the Language Acquisition Device (LAD) was an axiom. How else could infants learn to understand language and speak grammatically? These AI programs demonstrate that no LAD is necessary.

Perhaps they also demonstrate another ‘folk axiom’, that ‘Men are from Mars and women from Venus’, is also false. Maybe, at least in their experience of the physical and emotional dimensions of sexual attraction, both are equally fluid.

AI is changing scientists' understanding.

 

[TheRedChamber]

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent"-Eleanor Roosevelt.

Authors do not need to tip toe around people's insecurities. If alpha males or women with model looks and porn star bodies, make you insecure as a man or woman, that's a you problem, not a story problem.

If your point is appeal, as in not every guy or woman looks like this or fucks like this...that can be a valid point in some genres, but this is erotica, people don't want cellulite thighs and dad bods, they want what they see on Pornhub in written form.

To go back to my last post, this is more than over thinking, now we're getting into projection. Just write it, just read it, be one with the smut and d

Well, if Eleanor Roosevelt was ever in danger of feeling inferior regarding this topic, she could always look across from her pillow and remember she'd married the leader of the free world and hence 'won' the world dating battle royale.

My point is that, yes, there are stories where 10/10 superhunk beds 10/10 supermodel and those are perfectly fine - it is, after all, very easy to write the words 'glistening pectoral muscles', much easier than to actually develop them yourself.
Then there are stories where the 10/10 superhunk romances the 6/10 plain Jane (but she's really a 10/10 because she has a beautiful soul). It's not hard to imagine that the target audience and maybe the author themselves are somewhere around the 6/10 plain Jane demographic.
Then there are stories where the 6/10 Norman Nobody end up, through twisted hapstance, bedding the 10/10 supermodel. It's not hard to imagine who the target audience and authors for those are either.
Finally we have the nice sweet stories where 6/10 Norman and 6/10 Jane meet and discover that true hotness comes from within - and perhaps these can be enjoyed by all.

While people don't necessarily want their characers in erotica to be ugly, I have characters who are clearly intended to be 10/10s - Playboy models, dancers at the most exclusive clubs in London, mysterious Ferarri driving blondes. I can really go to town describing them. I also have stories where the girl who works at the bookshop ends up dating the nerd who comes in regularly. How beautiful is she? I don't really say, but certainly beautiful enough that he's interested.

A classic example getting these dynamics wrong in popular media is the Big Bang Theory, which made some terrible choices in its way too long run. The whole show is built around the premise of of uncool nerd gets the hot chick. The two worst mistakes the show made was having Leonard date Raj's sister Priya who not only was same ballpark attractive as Penny (hotter IMHO) but also a lawyer and thus more successful than Penny (at that point in the show) and intellectually comparable with Leonard. Later (or maybe earlier) they decided a good cliff-hanger for the season would be to have Penny appear to sleep with Raj (at that point the cannonically the least datable of the four not-very-datable male MCs). Taken together, if Leonard can date 'better' women than Penny and if Penny will sleep with 'worse' men than Leonard the whole premise of the show lies in ruins and the best thing that the writers did was move on from those story lines as quickly as possible.

My point was really that there is a calculus to dating (yes, still in nerd mode) for both men and women and they do the sums differently sometimes, leading to a lot of 'why would she' or 'why is he bothering' type thinking when things don't quite add up.